American boys have become less supportive of gender equality (i.e. men and women should receive equal job opportunities and pay)

[rjs330]

I don't know anyone in a conservative church. Would you say that depending if their church is conservative or liberal a member of a church would be more likely or not to believe in equal opportunity and equal pay for equal job? If so, it might be the relative proportion of conservative/liberal boys inside the group of those who find religion important that have shifted.

I honestly dont know where this is coming from. I can tell you I have been in conservative Christian churches and circles for a long time. I have NEVER heard anyone espousing that women should not receive equal pay for an equal job.

And quite frankly this notion that they don't has been debunked.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

I honestly dont know where this is coming from. I can tell you I have been in conservative Christian churches and circles for a long time. I have NEVER heard anyone espousing that women should not receive equal pay for an equal job.

And quite frankly this notion that they don't has been debunked.

Sorry, I assumed perhaps incorrectly that you knew more about conservative churches than I. I just wanted some conservative US-specific input. No I'm also a bit confused by the results, because there seems to be no difference historically with regards to if one finds religion important or not. The liberal churches I know are very positive to womens rights. But I'm also shocked that anyone since 1960s has said - "No, women should not recieve equal pay for equal jobs". In Sweden, the unexplained gap is down to 5% which could be random chance if it weren't for the fact that it is always to womens detriment so there are probably still some misogynistic attitudes around beneath the surface. Do you know if it really is zero in the US?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Do you know if it really is zero in the US?

It isn't. As of 2024, the pay gap was about 15%.

Gender pay gap in U.S. has narrowed slightly over 2 decades

In 2024, women earned an average of 85% of what men earned, according to an analysis of median hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Stopped_lurking]

It isn't. As of 2024, the pay gap was about 15%.

Gender pay gap in U.S. has narrowed slightly over 2 decades

In 2024, women earned an average of 85% of what men earned, according to an analysis of median hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers.

www.pewresearch.org

I thought it sounded to good to be true, the only country I know have reached parity is Luxemburg. Since it is a small country with tons of workers crossing borders to work there it would actually be interesting how they calculated it.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I thought it sounded to good to be true, the only country I know have reached parity is Luxemburg. Since it is a small country with tons of workers crossing borders to work there it would actually be interesting how they calculated it.

It's important to note that the pay gap isn't entirely down to "sexism" - women in the US on average work fewer hours than men and are more likely to move to lower-paying (and lower-stress) careers over time. This is largely attributable to maternity leave and the poor healthcare/childcare system in the US. For example, it frequently makes economic sense for one parent to drop out of the workforce to care for their children prior to them starting school, as the cost of childcare can exceed a single parent's earnings, especially with multiple children, and typically, the parent to drop out is the mother.

This is a good, even-handed analysis of the data: https://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/our-re...e-and-career-choices-shape-the-gender-pay-gap

 

[Stopped_lurking]

It's important to note that the pay gap isn't entirely down to "sexism" - women in the US on average work fewer hours than men and are more likely to move to lower-paying (and lower-stress) careers over time. This is largely attributable to maternity leave and the poor healthcare/childcare system in the US. For example, it frequently makes economic sense for one parent to drop out of the workforce to care for their children prior to them starting school, as the cost of childcare can exceed a single parent's earnings, especially with multiple children, and typically, the parent to drop out is the mother.

This is a good, even-handed analysis of the data: https://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/our-re...e-and-career-choices-shape-the-gender-pay-gap

It's the same in Sweden the unadjusted pay gap is ~10%, adjusting for things like working hours, experience, occupational segregation etc brings it down to 5%.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I honestly dont know where this is coming from. I can tell you I have been in conservative Christian churches and circles for a long time. I have NEVER heard anyone espousing that women should not receive equal pay for an equal job.

This is verbal gymnastics to intentionally misrepresent what people are saying. People are saying "women deserve equal rights, pay, and protections because they are equal."

What you say is "of course everybody thinks women deserve equal pay for equal jobs," but then you follow it up with "and women don't do equal jobs, therefore they don't deserve equal pay." You give yourself an out that explains not only that they don't have equality, but that you're totally OK with it. And you say "well nobody in my church believes that women don't deserve equal pay for equal jobs" but neglect to mention "they all don't think women do equal jobs, that's why they're paid less."

And quite frankly this notion that they don't has been debunked.

Case in point.

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

America drifting listlessly towards fundamental Islamic views on women.

Bodily rights for women are already under attack with prison sentences or risk of death.

America really is becoming the land of the straight male WASP.

Perhaps the Democrats shouldn't have relied on the Bear vote last year?

 

[Larniavc]

Perhaps the Democrats shouldn't have relied on the Bear vote last year?

Did you mean me? My wife calls me bear but I didn’t vote Democrat.

 

[bèlla]

America really is becoming the land of the straight male WASP.

Not exactly. We’re moving back to a class based society and it doesn’t exclude women. I mentioned the emergence of quiet luxury in the past and what it was really signaling. Now it’s come to fruition with the old money trend and emergence of things like richtok. Which is a subculture on the platform that showcases content from very wealthy creators the audience devours.

I said we were going back a few years ago and you’d begin to see exhorbitant displays of wealth with little restraint. Coupled with the artival of the beautiful people which celebrates surgical enhancements the majority can’t afford (e.g. Kris Jenner). If you’ve seen videos with titles like you’re not ugly you’re just broke that’s what it pertains to.

What we’re witnessing is a celebration of what’s possible when you have means (thinness, beauty, material things, etc.) juxtaposed with complaints concerning hardships, the economy and so on. The conversation around nepo babies is part of that as well.

~bella

 

[rjs330]

Sorry, I assumed perhaps incorrectly that you knew more about conservative churches than I.

Well I suspect that since I have been attending conservative churches my whole life that I would know more about them than you do, if you have little experience with them.

just wanted some conservative US-specific input.

Glad I could help with that.

But I'm also shocked that anyone since 1960s has said - "No, women should not recieve equal pay for equal jobs".

I agree. I'm a bit perplexed.

In Sweden, the unexplained gap is down to 5% which could be random chance if it weren't for the fact that it is always to womens detriment so there are probably still some misogynistic attitudes around beneath the surface. Do you know if it really is zero in the US?

I don't think its zero across every potential job out there. I doubt it ever will be zero. But there is WAY more nuance to that than simple misogynistic attitudes. There are many reasons why a woman may not earn the exact amount that a man does on any given job. Job titles don't always reflect precise job duties, experience, skill levels, work ethic, overtime, actual time at work etc. The fact remains there really is no pay gap between men and women.

 

[Paidiske]

It's a desire return to acknowledgement that the two sexes are different, that they're better at certain things than the other, and that they're complimentary.

At a population level, though, this is just false. The vast majority of men and women, for any given trait, fall under a shared part of the bell curve. Eg. like this:

Sure, there are outliers at the extremes. But the idea that you can take any given man and any given woman, and assume that the man will be better at x or the woman better at y, just on the basis of sex, is completely false.

Theres been alot of discussion about boys possible sense of unfairness in society, but it is unclear to me if this sense have a greater effect on those that find religion more important. Could it be a more direct effect? Have the discussions around women's rights changed in the churches themselves?

I think some churches foster a sense of entitlement in boys and men. They tell them that they are meant to occupy a particular sort of position, in the home, in the church, in the world... and so those men are more aggrieved when their experience doesn't match that sense of entitlement.

 

[FireDragon76]

In the 8-10 demographic, I highly doubt that kids are making a conscious decision to watch people like Andrew Tate because of his thoughts on women. They watch their favorite video game streamers, many of whom share Tate's beliefs and repeat them on stream, and the Youtube algorithm leads them to people like Tate. They are thus slowly indoctrinated into those beliefs.

The onus is on parents to monitor what their kids are watching and on streaming services to make sure they're not promulgating harmful information.

It seems like secularization in the US has resulted in the disintegration of the liberal, egalitarian consensus in favor of political and cultural polarization. And religion in the US, despite declining in terms of percentages, becoming less pro-social and more extremist, perhaps due to the declining influence of large Protestant institutions, which historically had a moderating influence. But this didn't happen in a vacuum, it also occurred along with deregulated, but liability-shielded internet platforms that pushed spectacle and outrage, instead of responsible discourse.

 

[bèlla]

It seems like secularization in the US has resulted in the disintegration of the liberal, egalitarian consensus in favor of political and cultural polarization. And religion in the US, despite declining in terms of percentages, becoming less pro-social and more extremist, perhaps due to the declining influence of large Protestant institutions, which historically had a moderating influence.

We differ because of our values and perspectives on what’s acceptable (or not) on a societal level. One group espouses greater openness and tolerance and the other wants more restraint. When you have a gulf that great extremes are likely as most things move on a scale.

~bella

 

[RocksInMyHead]

It seems like secularization in the US has resulted in the disintegration of the liberal, egalitarian consensus in favor of political and cultural polarization. And religion in the US, despite declining in terms of percentages, becoming less pro-social and more extremist, perhaps due to the declining influence of large Protestant institutions, which historically had a moderating influence. But this didn't happen in a vacuum, it also occurred along with deregulated, but liability-shielded internet platforms that pushed spectacle and outrage, instead of responsible discourse.

I think the secularization issue is a bit of a chicken and egg problem - is secularization leading to polarization and extremism, or are polarization and extremism causing the secularization of American culture?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Sure, there are outliers at the extremes. But the idea that you can take any given man and any given woman, and assume that the man will be better at x or the woman better at y, just on the basis of sex, is completely false.

It should be noted that "better at performing the task" and "better at the job" are two different things.

People may not like that, but it's the reality.

I'll circle back to that aspect later...

For starters, we'll just consider it purely based on task.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics:
In 2024, about 29.0% of civilian jobs were required workers to perform medium strength work. (which entails regularly needing to carry up to 50 pounds, another 6.9% involved heavy strength work (involving lifting/carrying up to 80 pounds)


That's a third of jobs that males (as a general rule) are going to have a built-in advantage for.

On the other side of the fence, jobs that require empathy, women have a built-in advantage for. There are longitudinal studies showing that as early as adolescence, there's already a noticeable difference on the EAI (Empathy Assessment Index) between boys and girls, and that the gap between the two widens with age. (Hence the reason girls will have a caregiver attitude towards their dolls, and boys will want to chuck their action figures off a bridge or make them fight each other in the back yard)


Now, to the first part I mentioned, and people likely won't like to hear this...
There is research that shows that while we men obviously have the worse track record in terms of sexual harassment, women can bring a different distinct kind of negativity to the workplace

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/06/women-see-more-workplace-rudeness-from-other-women-than-from-men.html

Why do women gossip? Study reveals dark, strategic reasons.

A new paper explores why women gossip about each other, and identifies some key factors that influence how women choose gossiping targets.

bigthink.com

and those situations are harder to rectify in some ways. If a guy working for me sexually harasses Sally, I can fire him relatively quickly with just cause. If Megan tries to turn all of the other women in the office against Sally with a bunch of implication-rich passive-aggressive comments, that's a little more complex to deal with.


But there's a number of well-established psychological traits that are different between men and women that can translate to being better suited for certain jobs (as a whole) --

...and again, I'm not suggesting that we preemptively screen out anyone for any position at an individual level, just merely suggesting we shouldn't be shocked or think it's "something we need to 'fix'" when we see big difference in ratios in certain professions.

 

[Paidiske]

It should be noted that "better at performing the task" and "better at the job" are two different things.

True, because any given job is about a mix of tasks, and also about relationships.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics:
In 2024, about 29.0% of civilian jobs were required workers to perform medium strength work. (which entails regularly needing to carry up to 50 pounds, another 6.9% involved heavy strength work (involving lifting/carrying up to 80 pounds)

That's a third of jobs that males (as a general rule) are going to have a built-in advantage for.

And yet, many of those jobs are in healthcare, and dominated by women. (Nursing is the profession with the highest rate of lifting-related injuries). If it were just about strength, we'd expect to see nursing dominated by men. But clearly, it's not.

On the other side of the fence, jobs that require empathy, women have a built-in advantage for.

I don't actually agree. Recent studies have shown that measures which show this are coloured by social expectations. (Eg: see here: https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/18/1/nsad008/7046083 "large-sample EEG results challenge the notion of women’s superiority in empathy that is built based on subjective questionnaire measures that are sensitive to social desirability."

we shouldn't be shocked or think it's "something we need to 'fix'" when we see big difference in ratios in certain professions.

But we should ask why. Because the idea that it's always just about innate differences is highly suspect. And refusing to recognise or challenge the underlying problems that many of us face, is completely unjust.

 

[bèlla]

Spotted in the wild…

 

[FireDragon76]

I think the secularization issue is a bit of a chicken and egg problem - is secularization leading to polarization and extremism, or are polarization and extremism causing the secularization of American culture?

The rapid secularization occurred first, after 9/11. It's been long enough that historians have gained some clarity about that.

There's a certain amount of feedback. People are increasingly defining themselves in "us" vs "them" terms.

 

[rjs330]

And yet, many of those jobs are in healthcare, and dominated by women. (Nursing is the profession with the highest rate of lifting-related injuries). If it were just about strength, we'd expect to see nursing dominated by men. But clearly, it's not.

That proves his point. Those healthcare jobs have rhe highest rates of injuries precisely because men would be superior in those tasks than women would be. We see nursing dominated by women because more women want to do that job than men do. Even though men are better suited for the lifting aspects. So while over all jobs may or may not be suited better for one sex or the other, men or women certainly could be better suited for the job over all.

For example, jobs suited better for men are jobs that take the heavy lifting like cement foundation work. A greater amount of men would be better able to do that than women because those panels are extremely heavy to lift.

And the fact that women choose nursing more than men is because its not just about strength. There are other aspects to the job than women are more attracted to than men.

The sexes are different. We are built differently and think differently. And no im not just talking about EEG studies. There is much more going on in our thought processes and emotions than EEG activities.

Ive raised 3 girls and one boy. My daughter has raised three boys and one girl. My wife was blown away by the difference in the way my girls operated and the way our son did. My daughter was used to the way boys operated and then was amazed at the differences when she had a girl.

So, yes there are fundamental differences between us all and between tye sexes. Just cause science hasn't really been able to figure out how it all happens or prove scientifically how it all works doesn't mean there isnt any.