American boys have become less supportive of gender equality (i.e. men and women should receive equal job opportunities and pay)

[bèlla]

I would expect a group that’s desirous of greater representation to direct its adherents towards roles with more authority and visibility. Hence the emphasis on the C-suite. You’ll open more doors and make inroads in other areas like committees and boards.

~bella

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No, they're thinking, "I'd love to go into a STEM field, but half the guys are creepy weirdos who can't get past the fact that I have boobs and a vagina

If women are thinking that, perhaps there's some "toxic femininity" at play.

The notion that socially awkward "techy" guys are "creepy weirdos" is a bit concerning.

It sounds like something the "mean girls" table in a high school would say about the guys in the computer club who like to play D&D.


Not to mention, if "dealing with weird people" and "being talked down to by co-workers" was really the factor putting them off of a career path, then how does one explain how the nursing profession is dominated by women?

Doctor-Bully Epidemic Jeopardizing Both Nurses And Patients | Journal of Advanced Practice Nursing. Nursing Journals : American Society of Registered Nurses

Nursing Journals - American Society of Registered Nurses. Read nursing medical journals online

www.asrn.org

A 2016 Institute for Safe Medication Practices survey found that in the year prior, 87 percent of nurses had encountered physicians who had a “reluctance or refusal to answer your questions, or return calls,” 74 percent experienced physicians’ “condescending or demeaning comments or insults,” and 26 percent of nurses had objects thrown at them by doctors. Physicians shamed, humiliated, or spread malicious rumors about 42 percent of the surveyed nurses.

A New York critical care nurse told me, “Every single nurse I know has been verbally berated by a doctor. Every single one.”

(industry surveys also suggest that paralegals -- another profession titled heavily toward the female side -- experience the same from lawyers)


Any possible chance that the "being verbally mistreated and talked down to" is incomplete to a degree? ...and maybe the part that makes that kind of mistreatment a "deal-breaker" for some stems from "who's the one doing the talking down"? (perhaps even a little bit based on who they perceive as being "beneath their standards" in other aspects?)

"I'll tolerate a doctor or lawyer calling me stupid or yelling at me...but no way am I going to get talked down to by some weirdo computer nerd"
(which would indicate a different type of bias going in the other direction)

 

[bèlla]

The notion that socially awkward "techy" guys are "creepy weirdos" is a bit concerning.

That wasn’t the norm for men in tech. Nerdy yes but what you’re describing is a different phenomenon. I spent my share of time in their company when I was in the workforce and took a course on networks at a technical school and they didn’t behave strangely.

But we didn’t have terms like anxiety, awkwardness or things along those lines. They weren’t in the workforce in large numbers (or at all) to warrant the labels. Every generation has its oddities. We had punks and goths but they weren’t like that and there were women in their circles.

~bella

 

[rjs330]

No, they're thinking, "I'd love to go into a STEM field, but half the guys are creepy weirdos who can't get past the fact that I have boobs and a vagina, and most of the rest are, at minimum, casually sexist and will dismiss my abilities because I'm a woman." Toxic work environments can take many forms; they're not limited to the sort of "hard-ass chauvinism" that's prevalent in many blue-collar professions - though those sorts of people absolutely exist in STEM too.

Sounds like you have a very low opinion of the guys working in the STEM fields. Actually you have a low opinion of men working in any field really.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Theres been alot of discussion about boys possible sense of unfairness in society, but it is unclear to me if this sense have a greater effect on those that find religion more important. Could it be a more direct effect? Have the discussions around women's rights changed in the churches themselves?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Could it be a more direct effect? Have the discussions around women's rights changed in the churches themselves?

I believe they have in some American churches, including influential ones to which people like Secretary of War Hegseth belong to. (closed thread)

AI Overview


While not all churches are turning against women, there is a trend of many conservative Christian denominations reinforcing traditional gender hierarchies and patriarchal structures, which creates significant tension with the views and experiences of many young women and is contributing to an increase in the number of women disaffiliating from organized religion

Key Factors Contributing to the Shift

• Reinforced Patriarchal Structures:Some conservative churches are actively pushing back against women's leadership and affirming a gender hierarchy that requires women to submit to male leadership.
• Biblical Interpretations:
• Cultural and Political Misalignment:
• The #MeToo Movement:The #MeToo movement and the subsequent #ChurchToo hashtag brought to light widespread reports of church sexual abuse and harassment, further eroding trust in religious institutions for many women.

Consequences of this Trend

• Increased Disaffiliation:T
• Gendered Power Dynamics:Women's roles in churches are changing, with some denominations taking steps to limit their authority and leadership opportunities.
• A "Flip" in Religious Engagement:For the first time in decades, men are now reporting higher levels of church attendance than women, a reversal of a long-standing trend.

 

[High Fidelity]

I agree with wage equality for the most part, but I've worked agency jobs in the past where women were given the easy tasks and I got given the back-breaking tasks. If I complained that my back or shoulders were not great then I'd get told if I can't do the range of duties then I shouldn't be there.

I've had two surgeries resulting from that, with a third on the way.

I distinctly recall being annoyed at the time. If we're earning the same then we should be expected to do the same, and if you can't do the full range of duties then you should either be in a different job or earn less.

 

[bèlla]

I believe they have in some American churches, including influential ones to which people like Secretary of War Hegseth belong to. (closed thread)

AI Overview


While not all churches are turning against women, there is a trend of many conservative Christian denominations reinforcing traditional gender hierarchies and patriarchal structures, which creates significant tension with the views and experiences of many young women and is contributing to an increase in the number of women disaffiliating from organized religion

The patriarchal push is also in response to disenfranchisement claims by men and the impact they’ve had on relations with the opposite sex. Most notably in terms of marriage, dating opportunities and allegations of hypergamy. Turning back the clock for some is a valid way of correcting the other.

Suggestions notwithstanding, I agree with their decision to separate from institutions whose ideals conflict with their own. There’s never been a time when the Lord told me “to stay in my place” and I wouldn’t accept the same from a man.

~bella

 

[rjs330]

While not all churches are turning against women, there is a trend of many conservative Christian denominations reinforcing traditional gender hierarchies and patriarchal structures, which creates significant tension with the views and experiences of many young women and is contributing to an increase in the number of women disaffiliating from organized religion

Conservative Biblical churches have always believed in Biblical gender roles and gender hierarchy. This isn't a new trend. Most conservative churches follow Biblical principles, which by the way do not espouse such things as the typical "barefoot and pregnant" accusation often tossed about willing nilly by progressives.

Scripture is clear that men and women are EQUAL in sin and grace. Both are created in the image of God. Both are equals in the faith. Both are recognized as having leadership value. Both are called to submit to one another as husbands and wives. There are women in scripture who have served in leadership roles in the church. But there are hierarchies church leadership roles that are exclusive to men in scripture as well. Women are to love and respect their husbands. They are to be kind and teach kindness. They are to be dignified and faithful. She does her husband good and not harm. In family governance she is to submit to her husband, who is called to love and sacrifice for her and honor her.

Men are to show sacrificial love to their wives. It is men who are called to leave their mothers and fathers and make their wives their partners. Men are to be good fathers, raising their children in the wayz of the Lord. They are to honor their wives. They are to provide for their families and work hard. They are to do all that as the head of the family. Loving their wives as Christ loves the church and gave himself for her. A real man gives himself for his wife. Men are to be diligent and self controlled in actions and decisions. Men are to serve and seek wisdom. Lording over or abusing women is the very antithesis of what scripture teaches of what means to be a man and husband.

As we see every day neither sex fulfills the teachings of scripture in a perfect way. The roles and hierarchies of scripture are not onerous when one is striving to fulfill them in a Christ like fashion who fulfills His role with love and grace.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Conservative Biblical churches have always believed in Biblical gender roles and gender hierarchy. This isn't a new trend. Most conservative churches follow Biblical principles, which by the way do not espouse such things as the typical "barefoot and pregnant" accusation often tossed about willing nilly by progressives.

I don't know about shoelessness, but there is a recent and strong 'pronatalist' movement to have more babies among conservatives.

 

[rjs330]

The patriarchal push is also in response to disenfranchisement claims by men and the impact they’ve had on relations with the opposite sex. Most notably in terms of marriage, dating opportunities and allegations of hypergamy. Turning back the clock for some is a valid way of correcting the other.

Suggestions notwithstanding, I agree with their decision to separate from institutions whose ideals conflict with their own. There’s never been a time when the Lord told me “to stay in my place” and I wouldn’t accept the same from a man.

~bella

I wonder if men would do a better job of fulfilling their scriptural duties and admonitions if it would be easier to find a good woman. The Bible has a LOT to say about how men should live as an honorable hard working person.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I wonder if men would do a better job of fulfilling their scriptural duties and admonitions if it would be easier to find a good woman.

Yeah, look at Adam. Always the woman's fault.

 

[rjs330]

I don't know about shoelessness, but there is a recent and strong 'pronatalist' movement to have more babies among conservatives.

That is most likely caused by the understanding that humanity need to reproduce. The I purpose of every orfanizm on the planet is to propagate the species. Right now we are below replacement levels. In order to have a strong functioning and lasting society strong families with a mother, father and children are required.

In order for genetic diversity and evolutionary growth species and to procreate. Procreation is critical for societal growth and change. We need it for genetic diversity and adaptation as the world around us changes including adapting to illness or disease. Soc I etal growth and innovation is dependant on procreation.

So yes, we do need to increase our baby output, not based upon the belief that women should be "barefoot and pegnant" but upon the need for our species to continue to grow and survive.

 

[bèlla]

I wonder if men would do a better job of fulfilling their scriptural duties and admonitions if it would be easier to find a good woman. The Bible has a LOT to say about how men should live as an honorable hard working person.

Are you making a blanket statement about christian women? After all, there’s over 300 million people in America and if we use that as our basis and factor in the portion of believers male and female the numbers are fairly high. To suppose out of that group one can’t find a “good woman” is logistically false. The more likely factors of location, preferences, receptivity and the like are greater contributors than there’s no one out there.

And it must be said, we’re dealing with a generation of men who were the unfortunate recipients of gold stickers and everybody wins philosophies which do little to strengthen ones willingness to compete or ability to do so. Add that to the questionable ideologies on marriage and dating parroted in the church that weren’t debunked at home and a laissez faire approach on the subject and you have a recipe for failure.

The most troubling part of your response from my perspective is the desire for ease. Why should finding a good partner be easy? Most things in life along those lines require effort. You don’t get good grades unless you put in the work. The same applies for admission to good schools, a job at a great company, better neighborhoods and so on.

We expect to exert ourselves in certain areas. Why would marriage be any different? The expectation of otherwise is part of the problem. As is reliance on her presence as a precursor for obeisance. He should do as the Lord requires whether she’s there or not.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

I don't know about shoelessness, but there is a recent and strong 'pronatalist' movement to have more babies among conservatives.

The pronatalist movement has several approaches. It isn’t a one-size fits all ideal. While they agree on the state of fertility worldwide and decreases in certain areas. The resolutions are manyfold and I’d posit quality over quantity as the preferable response for most. They don’t want everyone to have more children nor is it feasibility.

The more likely solutions include those with greater means, incentivizing families who desire more and have 3+ already and encouraging couples to marry earlier and prioritize childbirth initially. That isn’t a call for one income families or setting college aside. Some include arranged marriage with the latter.

And there‘s collective agreement about parental involvement. Which may include matchmaking, vetting and more. And they’re not opposed to doing so within the group which is a likely option for some. I don’t foresee worldwide adoption of the ideology. It’s really niched. But the principle may be applied in less restrictive ways by others.

While I don’t agree with everything they have some good ideas nonetheless that isn’t too far from the things I’ve done with my daughter. My approach to parenting isn’t the norm with christians and more akin to what you’d see with foreigners or specific groups. We think as a collective and the tree is foremost not the branches. Everything we do affects the whole and that’s the goal.

~bella

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Listening to what others say sounds good especially at adolescence.

However, if society is showing that being too receptive results in being ruled over by the other party, then being not receptive does sound like a reasonable reaction.

(What matters at adolescence is respect, it's odd to think of marriage)

 

[rjs330]

Are you making a blanket statement about christian women?

No i believe my blanket statement was about men. Not sure how you missed that since most of the post was about men.

Good woman was reference to there being good women out there who won't settle. Maybe men would would attract these good women if they followed the biblical principles of what a good man looks like.

The most troubling part of your response from my perspective is the desire for ease. Why should finding a good partner be easy? Most things in life along those lines require effort. You don’t get good grades unless you put in the work. The same applies for admission to good schools, a job at a great company, better neighborhoods and so on.

I didn't make any claim about ease. I was wondering if it would be easier. Just like your analogy. Put in the work of being a good biblical man and your work will give you a better opportunity.

 

[bèlla]

Good woman was reference to there being good women out there who won't settle. Maybe men would would attract these good women if they followed the biblical principles of what a good man looks like.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Pommer]

Conservative Biblical churches have always believed in Biblical gender roles and gender hierarchy. This isn't a new trend. Most conservative churches follow Biblical principles, which by the way do not espouse such things as the typical "barefoot and pregnant" accusation often tossed about willing nilly by progressives.

Scripture is clear that men and women are EQUAL in sin and grace. Both are created in the image of God. Both are equals in the faith. Both are recognized as having leadership value. Both are called to submit to one another as husbands and wives. There are women in scripture who have served in leadership roles in the church. But there are hierarchies church leadership roles that are exclusive to men in scripture as well. Women are to love and respect their husbands. They are to be kind and teach kindness. They are to be dignified and faithful. She does her husband good and not harm. In family governance she is to submit to her husband, who is called to love and sacrifice for her and honor her.

Men are to show sacrificial love to their wives. It is men who are called to leave their mothers and fathers and make their wives their partners. Men are to be good fathers, raising their children in the wayz of the Lord. They are to honor their wives. They are to provide for their families and work hard. They are to do all that as the head of the family. Loving their wives as Christ loves the church and gave himself for her. A real man gives himself for his wife. Men are to be diligent and self controlled in actions and decisions. Men are to serve and seek wisdom. Lording over or abusing women is the very antithesis of what scripture teaches of what means to be a man and husband.

As we see every day neither sex fulfills the teachings of scripture in a perfect way. The roles and hierarchies of scripture are not onerous when one is striving to fulfill them in a Christ like fashion who fulfills His role with love and grace.

I think it’s fine that socially conservative people choose to use old-time gender roles for people with whom they share a faith.
That’s commendable.
After all, it’s what’s got us (all) to this point…so there’s that.

But the days when social conservative people get to dictate the “standards” for society at-large; yeah, them days is long since passed.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Conservative Biblical churches have always believed in Biblical gender roles and gender hierarchy. This isn't a new trend. Most conservative churches follow Biblical principles, which by the way do not espouse such things as the typical "barefoot and pregnant" accusation often tossed about willing nilly by progressives.

Scripture is clear that men and women are EQUAL in sin and grace. Both are created in the image of God. Both are equals in the faith. Both are recognized as having leadership value. Both are called to submit to one another as husbands and wives. There are women in scripture who have served in leadership roles in the church. But there are hierarchies church leadership roles that are exclusive to men in scripture as well. Women are to love and respect their husbands. They are to be kind and teach kindness. They are to be dignified and faithful. She does her husband good and not harm. In family governance she is to submit to her husband, who is called to love and sacrifice for her and honor her.

Men are to show sacrificial love to their wives. It is men who are called to leave their mothers and fathers and make their wives their partners. Men are to be good fathers, raising their children in the wayz of the Lord. They are to honor their wives. They are to provide for their families and work hard. They are to do all that as the head of the family. Loving their wives as Christ loves the church and gave himself for her. A real man gives himself for his wife. Men are to be diligent and self controlled in actions and decisions. Men are to serve and seek wisdom. Lording over or abusing women is the very antithesis of what scripture teaches of what means to be a man and husband.

As we see every day neither sex fulfills the teachings of scripture in a perfect way. The roles and hierarchies of scripture are not onerous when one is striving to fulfill them in a Christ like fashion who fulfills His role with love and grace.

I don't know anyone in a conservative church. Would you say that depending if their church is conservative or liberal a member of a church would be more likely or not to believe in equal opportunity and equal pay for equal job? If so, it might be the relative proportion of conservative/liberal boys inside the group of those who find religion important that have shifted.