DeSantis to make Florida first state to end *all* vaccine mandates for schools

[NxNW]

Sure, let's treat the lives of Floridians (and those who visit the state) as one grand experiment.

Florida is just working towards smaller class sizes.

 

[BeckyJ]

You're right, that party does support the killing of growing babies in the womb and giving youth puberty blockers.

There is no such party.

Yet, let's get bothered by vaccines STILL being available for anyone to take, but now it won't be forced there.
I get vaccines, but fully support those who can't or don't want to.
You either trust your vaccines or you don't.

Polio doesn't care what you trust.



Yes, it's the democrats party.
So you don't trust your vaccines, got it.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The backlash absolutely was to vaccine mandates.

You read and responded to that entire post and yet somehow managed to miss my point, which was that it wasn't specifically vaccine mandates that people objected to. What they objected to was a disruption of what they were used to. People had normalized and accepted mandated vaccines in certain contexts for years such as for school admission and for certain jobs like healthcare and military service. And yes, whether or not you like the term, it largely was anti-vax kooks who balked at them prior to covid. There was no large scale backlash to those mandates. Likewise, there was no backlash to mandates for wearing PPE in certain contexts, like construction or health care jobs, because people had grown to accept those mandates. What people objected to was the imposition of something new.

 

[NxNW]

Yes, it's the democrats party.
So you don't trust your vaccines, got it.

You might work on your reading comprehension.

 

[probinson]

You read and responded to that entire post and yet somehow managed to miss my point, which was that it wasn't specifically vaccine mandates that people objected to.

I got your point. I disagree with it.

What they objected to was a disruption of what they were used to.

What they objected to was being told that they had to comply with unscientific claptrap.

People had normalized and accepted mandated vaccines in certain contexts for years such as for school admission and for certain jobs like healthcare and military service. And yes, whether or not you like the term, it largely was anti-vax kooks who balked at them prior to covid. There was no large scale backlash to those mandates.

That backlash is growing quickly now. Vaccine uptake was harmed across the board because of ill-advised, ineffective COVID vaccine mandates. Gruber and Krause warned of it and pandemic preparedness plans talked about how coercion of forced vaccinations were counterproductive. It's not even a little bit surprising to me that ALL vaccine uptake has suffered because of foolish COVID vaccine mandates.

Likewise, there was no backlash to mandates for wearing PPE in certain contexts, like construction or health care jobs, because people had grown to accept those mandates.

You seem to be glossing over the fact that PPE in certain contexts has been shown to be beneficial, mostly because people are trained how to wear the PPE so that it is effective and because the PPE is specific to the task at hand. OTOH, telling everyone to make masks out of old T-shirts and wear them outside when they were alone was always ridiculous nonsense.

What people objected to was the imposition of something new.

What people objected to was the imposition of things that had no evidence base.

 

[iluvatar5150]

What they objected to was being told that they had to comply with unscientific claptrap.

lol, the people balking at the covid vaccine while listening to "America's Frontline Doctors" and trying to get hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin were not mad about having to comply with "unscientific claptrap."

You seem to be glossing over the fact that PPE in certain contexts has been shown to be beneficial, mostly because people are trained how to wear the PPE so that it is effective and because the PPE is specific to the task at hand. OTOH, telling everyone to make masks out of old T-shirts and wear them outside when they were alone was always ridiculous nonsense.

What people objected to was the imposition of things that had no evidence base.

And yet, most of those same folks also balked at restrictions on large, indoor gatherings. What better way to spread a respiratory infection than corporate singing like you'd have in church?

 

[Always in His Presence]

There is no such party.

Sure is - they are the ones loosing support.

Polio doesn't care what you trust.

There has been one case of polio is 46 years and that was caused by a vaccine.

 

[BeckyJ]

You might work on your reading comprehension.

You said:
There is no such party.
Polio doesn't care what you trust.

I said:
Yes, it's the democrats party.
So you don't trust your vaccines, got it.

I "comprehended" what you said, but it seems you didn't comprehend what I said.

 

[probinson]

lol, the people balking at the covid vaccine while listening to "America's Frontline Doctors" and trying to get hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin were not mad about having to comply with "unscientific claptrap."

Most people balking at the COVID vaccine were simply paying attention to what was happening around them. First we were told that this was a durable vaccine that would only require two doses and prevent you from getting infected. Then when boosters came out, they pivoted and tried to say that they "always" knew it was a three-dose vaccine. Then when the NEXT booster came out, they changed their story AGAIN and said well, it won't stop you from getting COVID, but at least you won't die. Here's a great compilation of Peter Hotez moving the goalposts with each new vaccine dose.

The goalposts moved again, and again, and again, and again. And if you listen to Dr. Waleknsky talk about why they made such bold proclamations about how the vaccine would prevent you from getting COVID and would be durable and long-lasting, it was all based on wishful thinking.

Do that long enough and people will stop listening to you.

And yet, most of those same folks also balked at restrictions on large, indoor gatherings. What better way to spread a respiratory infection than corporate singing like you'd have in church?

Just listen to how Dr. Mandy Cohen, Director of the CDC, decided how and when to institute restrictions. Tell me where you hear the scientific process in her statements.

"So I would call, probably the person I called the most was the Secretary of Health and Human Services in Massachusetts. She worked for a Republican governor, just to... Um, but, you know, when, when she was like, 'Are you gonna let them have professional um, um, football?' And I was like, "Nope!" And she's like, 'OK neither are we, neither are we.' Uh, HA, um, so, uh, you know it was like conversations like that. So, or, or, I'd be like, 'So when are you gonna think about lightening up on masks?' and they're like, they're like 'Next Monday'. I'm like, 'OK. Next Monday.'"​

​

https://x.com/kevinnbass/status/1963007750423904693​

The metrics for when restrictions were implemented and lifted were completely arbitrary and literally changed by the hour. In PA, you couldn't go to a bar... unless they served food. Then you could go and eat... and drink, but only if you also ate. And who can forget one-way aisles in the stores. Or sand-filled skate parks in California. Or 2x4 boards nailed over basketball hoops. Or band students who cut holes in their masks so they could play their wind instruments. Or arresting people for relaxing on the beach by themselves.

The list goes on and on. These were all nonsensical MANDATES by governments at all levels. And anyone with even a modicum of common sense knew they were absurd nonsense. They were practically begging people to ignore their evidence-poor proclamations while flushing all of their trust and credibility right down the toilet.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Most people balking at the COVID vaccine were simply paying attention to what was happening around them. First we were told that this was a durable vaccine that would only require two doses and prevent you from getting infected. Then when boosters came out, they pivoted and tried to say that they "always" knew it was a three-dose vaccine. Then when the NEXT booster came out, they changed their story AGAIN and said well, it won't stop you from getting COVID, but at least you won't die. Here's a great compilation of Peter Hotez moving the goalposts with each new vaccine dose.

The goalposts moved again, and again, and again, and again. And if you listen to Dr. Waleknsky talk about why they made such bold proclamations about how the vaccine would prevent you from getting COVID and would be durable and long-lasting, it was all based on wishful thinking.

Do that long enough and people will stop listening to you.





Just listen to how Dr. Mandy Cohen, Director of the CDC, decided how and when to institute restrictions. Tell me where you hear the scientific process in her statements.

"So I would call, probably the person I called the most was the Secretary of Health and Human Services in Massachusetts. She worked for a Republican governor, just to... Um, but, you know, when, when she was like, 'Are you gonna let them have professional um, um, football?' And I was like, "Nope!" And she's like, 'OK neither are we, neither are we.' Uh, HA, um, so, uh, you know it was like conversations like that. So, or, or, I'd be like, 'So when are you gonna think about lightening up on masks?' and they're like, they're like 'Next Monday'. I'm like, 'OK. Next Monday.'"​

​

https://x.com/kevinnbass/status/1963007750423904693​

The metrics for when restrictions were implemented and lifted were completely arbitrary and literally changed by the hour. In PA, you couldn't go to a bar... unless they served food. Then you could go and eat... and drink, but only if you also ate. And who can forget one-way aisles in the stores. Or sand-filled skate parks in California. Or 2x4 boards nailed over basketball hoops. Or band students who cut holes in their masks so they could play their wind instruments. Or arresting people for relaxing on the beach by themselves.

The list goes on and on. These were all nonsensical MANDATES by governments at all levels. And anyone with even a modicum of common sense knew they were absurd nonsense. They were practically begging people to ignore their evidence-poor proclamations while flushing all of their trust and credibility right down the toilet.

I’ll wrap up my contributions here by pointing out that reacting to a vaccine mandate by refusing to take a different vaccine is an inherently irrational and unscientific thing to do. The efficacy of a vaccine is not affected by whether it or another vaccine was administered voluntarily or coercively. If these people were truly reacting to the scientific validity of these various measures, they’d respond to them all individually and independently. For example, they’d scoff at outdoor masking requirements while abiding by distancing requirements indoors.

Your own argument that people were acting rationally is undermined by your (accurate) argument that there was a backlash to the mandates.

 

[probinson]

I’ll wrap up my contributions here by pointing out that reacting to a vaccine mandate by refusing to take a different vaccine is an inherently irrational and unscientific thing to do.

Once you have been lied to by the agency mandating that vaccine, it destroys the trust and you begin to question other things. It is entirely rational to question someone who has lied to you. It was also quite predictable. I was saying back in 2021 that what was at stake was trust in all vaccines.

I honestly don't believe we'd be having this discussion right now if the COVID vaccines had been voluntary. If mandates had never been instituted, I believe that vaccine uptake would not have suffered at all. But, the shortsighted, WE NEED X% OF PEOPLE VACCINATED AT ALL COSTS!" may have achieved a positive, momentary political talking-point, but the cost was sacrificing TRUST to meet a meaningless metric.

The efficacy of a vaccine is not affected by whether it or another vaccine was administered voluntarily or coercively.

Correct.

But TRUST is the key to effective public health. And now that the trust has been broken, it will be incredibly difficult to regain. Not even health care workers have been following the CDC's recommendations to get COVID vaccines as evidence by the fact that fewer than one-third of health care workers got their updated COVID vaccine last year.

TRUST. That's what we're talking about. And when you fritter that trust away on inane restrictions and wishful thinking, you should not be surprised when people begin to question other things you've said.

If these people were truly reacting to the scientific validity of these various measures, they’d respond to them all individually and independently. For example, they’d scoff at outdoor masking requirements while abiding by distancing requirements indoors.

Why? I know you like to pretend that staying six-feet away from people was beneficial, but there was absolutely no evidence to support such a requirement. Listen to Fauci answer questions about "distancing".

Q: Do you recall when discussions regarding, kind of, the at-least-a-6-foot threshold began?​

​

Fauci: The six-foot in the school?​

​

Q: Six-foot overall. I mean, 6-foot was applied at businesses —​

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Facui: Yeah.​

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Q: It was applied in schools, it was applied here. At least how the messaging was applied was that 6-foot distancing was the distance that needed to be —​

​

Fauci: You know, I don’t recall. It sort of just appeared. I don’t recall, like, a discussion of whether it should be five or six or whatever. It was just that six-foot is –​

​

Q: Did you see any studies that supported six feet? ​

​

Fauci: I was not aware of studies that — in fact, that would be a very difficult study to do.​

​

Q: I know. I’m just trying to figure out why six versus three or four or five. ​

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Fauci: Yeah. Yeah.​

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Q: Like, six is a significant distance. I mean, you’ve testified here. I think you testified in front of Mr. Scalise a couple times when I was working for him. And recalling the hearing rooms, instead of, like, seven members on the top of the dais, there’s two, and – ​

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Fauci: Right.​

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Q: — it was just two staffers behind. ​

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Fauci: Yeah. Yeah. I think it would fall under the category of empiric. Just an empiric decision that wasn’t based on data or even data that could be accomplished. But I’m thinking hard as I’m talking to you.​

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Q: Uh-huh. ​

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Fauci: I don’t recall, like, a discussion of, “Now it’s going to be” — it sort of just appeared, that six feet is going to be the distance.​

It sort of just appeared. No studies were done. It wasn't based on any data. Yet the entire world went insane, drawing six-foot circles on the ground so kids could play in their "pods" at recess. Based on absolutely nothing other than an "empiric" proclamation. And here you are pretending in 2025, in hindsight, knowing that there was never any basis for such a restriction, that it had "scientific validity". It did not. It never did. It was absolute, utter nonsense.

Your own argument that people were acting rationally is undermined by your (accurate) argument that there was a backlash to the mandates.

Is it "rational" to refuse to comply with made-up mandates that. have no evidence-base? Things that people just make up on the fly, not based on any data? Why should you listen to people who admittedly mandated things that had no evidence-base? How can you even mention "scientific validity" in the same context as this lunacy?

 

[Tuur]

I don't know of any such party.

Uh-huh.

 

[Tuur]

You're correct.

Do you think the way to build trust in people skeptical of vaccines is to force them to vaccinate their children?

Today heard a retired 94 year-old teacher say that some people are so afraid of shots that they wouldn't be vaccinated / allow family to be vaccinated without making it a requirement for school attendance. She has a point.

 

[Tuur]

Heavens waiting room, now for all ages.

Now for all ages? See my post about little graves. Until relatively recently, that was the norm throughout human existence. That's something vaccines helped to end to the point where younger generations assume death mostly comes to the elderly. The motif of the Danse Macarbre may date back to the Black Plaque, but it's always held true.

 

[probinson]

Today heard a retired 94 year-old teacher say that some people are so afraid of shots that they wouldn't be vaccinated / allow family to be vaccinated without making it a requirement for school attendance. She has a point.

She does.

She also should consider that forcing someone to do something they're already, to use her term, "afraid of", is probably not the best way to build trust. it's not hard to see how such an approach could be counterproductive.

 

[Desk trauma]

Now for all ages?

Yes. Florida got that title after deadly childhood diseases were no longer a thing so I didn’t say again.

 

[Tuur]

Once you have been lied to by the agency mandating that vaccine, it destroys the trust and you begin to question other things.

You mean the COVID mRNA vaccines? How much of that was a lie and how much of that shear ignorance by politicians? The moment COVID-19 strains mutated away from the original variant, the vaccine for it wasn't going to be 100% effective. That's the way it is with influenza, so why not with a coronavirus? No big surprise there. Anecdotally have seen partial immunity when influenza mutated between the vaccine and flu season, so there was some protection, and that showed up in the dataset that showed a significant increase in survivability among the vaccinated in my demographic as compared to the unvaccinated in the same demographic. That's what convinced me to get the vaccine.

 

[Tuur]

Yes. Florida got that title after deadly childhood diseases were no longer a thing so I didn’t say again.

An odd thing, for prior to the pandemic, most anti-vaxxers were in places like the Northwest and New York. And how many patient zeroes came from outside the US?

 

[probinson]

You mean the COVID mRNA vaccines? How much of that was a lie and how much of that shear ignorance by politicians?

From the CDC, it was lies. They knew from the beginning that the vaccine was not going to prevent infections or transmission. Yet they ran around telling people that the virus would stop with them if they would just get the vaccine. They had to say that. It's the only way a mandate could be justified. People had to be made to believe that vaccinating was protecting others.

The moment COVID-19 strains mutated away from the original variant, the vaccine for it wasn't going to be 100% effective.

That was always a 100% certainty.

That's the way it is with influenza, so why not with a coronavirus? No big surprise there.

Exactly. So why did public health pretend otherwise? Fauci told people that they didn't have to worry about getting infected if they got the vaccines. But that was never true. As you said, it was no big surprise. Certainly someone as informed as Fauci knew this when he told people they wouldn't get infected if they were vaccinated.

Anecdotally have seen partial immunity when influenza mutated between the vaccine and flu season, so there was some protection, and that showed up in the dataset that showed a significant increase in survivability among the vaccinated in my demographic as compared to the unvaccinated in the same demographic. That's what convinced me to get the vaccine.

For reference, here is the Cochrane Review on influenza vaccines.

We found 52 clinical trials of over 80,000 adults. We were unable to determine the impact of bias on about 70% of the included studies due to insufficient reporting of details. Around 15% of the included studies were well designed and conducted. We focused on reporting of results from 25 studies that looked at inactivated vaccines. Injected influenza vaccines probably have a small protective effect against influenza and ILI (moderate-certainty evidence), as 71 people would need to be vaccinated to avoid one influenza case, and 29 would need to be vaccinated to avoid one case of ILI. Vaccination may have little or no appreciable effect on hospitalisations (low-certainty evidence) or number of working days lost.​

​

Vaccines to prevent influenza in healthy adults | Cochrane

www.cochrane.org

​

​

That's what convinced me NOT to get any more flu vaccines. But I think it's great that you and I can make those risk assessments for ourselves and choose what is best for our situation.

 

[Tuur]

She does.

She also should consider that forcing someone to do something they're already, to use her term, "afraid of", is probably not the best way to build trust. it's not hard to see how such an approach could be counterproductive.

Trust isn't the goal; preventing the spread of serious illness in schools is. And trust in what? Authorities? Uh-uh: don't trust them. Trust that vaccines work? That's easy to determine. Trust that vaccines saves lives? A walk through an old cemetery with tiny graves can do that.