• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

OCA and Macedonian Primates Concelebrate Divine Liturgy in Washington DC

E.C.

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2007
13,874
1,438
✟181,427.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single

1756942457262.jpeg



The OCA and Macedonian Orthodox Church recognize each other's autocephaly! So yesterday, Metropolitan Tikhon and Archbishop Stefan concelebrated the Primatial Divine Liturgy at St Nicholas Orthodox Cathedral (OCA) in Washington DC. They concelebrated in the presence of the Hawaiian Iveron Myrrh-Streaming Icon of the Mother of God and the relics of the newly canonized St Olga of Kwethluk. Both the Icon and relics were available for veneration by the faithful. Good time had by all.
 

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,882
14,348
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,466,958.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
North Macedonian.
That is what they agreed to in the fight with Greece over their illegitimate claim to the name, "Macedonia".
Unfortunately even our primates are ignorant of history.
Does no one recall that they were schismatics not many years back, that the Church was created by the communist government in a successful attempt to create a new national identity, completely cut off from their genuine heritage? Should they be rewarded now with recognition?
This doesn't sit well with me at all. Perhaps after a generation or two, but this is way too soon.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

E.C.

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2007
13,874
1,438
✟181,427.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
North Macedonian.
That is what they agreed to in the fight with Greece over their illegitimate claim to the name, "Macedonia".
Unfortunately even our primates are ignorant of history.
Does no one recall that they were schismatics not many years back, that the Church was created by the communist government in a successful attempt to create a new national identity, completely cut off from their genuine heritage? Should they be rewarded now with recognition?
This doesn't sit well with me at all. Perhaps after a generation or two, but this is way too soon.
Correct, the country is the Republic of North Macedonia. However, the name of the Local Church there is Macedonian Orthodox Church - Archdiocese of Ohrid, MOC-OA. And since that the the name that the OCA has decided to use, that is what I'm using in this thread - especially since the article comes from the OCA herself.

The Churches of Serbia, Romania, Czech Lands and Slovakia, Constantinople, Russian, Georgian, Albanian, Antiochian, and, Jerusalem Churches; also recognize the Church in the same name as the OCA. The Bulgarian Church doesn't recognize the "Archdiocese of Ohrid" part and the Church of Greece (Athens) I don't believe recognizes the "Macedonia" part, but both still recognize her autocephaly. Not sure about the rest of the Greek Churches like Cyprus or Alexandria, but I think they just haven't recognized the autocephaly part.

And while she did begin as schismatic, as have many other currently autocephalous Local Churches, I think at the very minimum their return to canonical Orthodoxy is worth celebrating. I think it is also worth celebrating that part of their return included the reintegration of the then-Serbian-led Archdiocese of Ohrid previously led by a once imprisoned Archbishop Jovan of the Serbian Orthodox Church. He is now a part of the MOC-OA and from all reports all prior bad blood has been forgiven.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,050
8,504
50
The Wild West
✟815,830.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Does no one recall that they were schismatics not many years back, that the Church was created by the communist government in a successful attempt to create a new national identity, completely cut off from their genuine heritage? Should they be rewarded now with recognition?

Since they repented of their irredentism and the mistreatment of the Serbians, I would say yes. We need to reward people who repent, and the North Macedonians repented, sincerely, to the extent of changing their country (they could have stuck to their guns and been referred to as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia). I would also note their language is different from that spoken by the Serbs and Croats (who speak basically the same language); Macedonian has some degree of mutual intelligibility with Serbian and Bulgarian and also has Turkish influences.

So you were right to object to what they had been doing, and in particular their illegal arrest and mistreatment of the imprisoned Serbian Orthodox Archbishop of Ohrid and the display of irredentist maps of a “Greater Macedonia” including Northern Greece, Thessaloniki, and Albania. But they have repented, and we need to reward this move away from nationalism to pan-Orthodox unity.

Nationalism can be really very toxic to Orthodoxy, particularly when it gets into an ethnic group closely related to another. It almost always leads to various forms of ethnophyletism. For example, to use an Antipodean analogy, if Queensland had a nationalist uprising that discriminated against people from New South Wales and Victoria, because NSW and Victoria have an upper house in their legislature and Queensland doesn’t, that would be of equivalent silliness to the schism between the Macedonians and everyone else. But it has ended, and for that we should be thankful.

Thus I’m going to suggest we do what @ArmyMatt is doing and rejoice, since this shows God is watching out for His Church and is working to move schismatics to repentence.

Now if we could just get the Old Calendarists to repent…as bad as toxic nationalist phyletism is, the construction of a series of recursively schismatic sects that believe all other Orthodox are devoid of grace, whose entire theology arguably is constructed on the logical fallacy commonly referred to as “no True Scotsman”, well, that is something to pray for, since Old Calendarists are causing real damage, by publishing their ideas on sites like Orthodoxinfo.com which are disguised as ordinary Eastern Orthodox resources - they don’t make it clear they’re Old Calendarist and that the doctrines they espouse are explicitly rejected by the canonical Orthodox.

There are fortunately no Old Calendarists on ChristianForums, unlike on another forum which I looked at a few times and found revolting, which thankfully is history the last time I checked. My hope is that the fact this forum is not restricted in its overall membership to Orthodox Christians but rather accomodates us along with the non-Orthodox will be enough to make them scream “Ecumenism! Pan-heresy! World Orthodox!“ and go back to writing polemics about how the Matthewites lack the sacramental grace that their own sect has and speculating about which canonical Orthodox bishops are 32 degree Freemasons vs. which ones are 33rd degree Freemasons.*


*The interesting thing about that is that while it is true continental Freemasonry has plotted against our church, continental Freemasonry is different from the Masons of North America, although that said the Masons of North America have aspects that are incompatible with Orthodoxy; particularly within the Scottish Rite which is the group that has all of the numbered degrees above the 3rd degree, particularly within the Southern Scottish Rite which was influenced by a Confederate general named Albert Pike who was attempting to create a new religion with new rituals for baptism of infants, burial, and everything else, because of his anti-Catholicism. However as far as I can tell the Freemasons in North America never plotted against us and actively dislike the Continental Freemasons who have, because Continental Freemasons allow atheists to join, and allow the discussion of politics in the lodge, which British and American Freemasons regard as “irregular” which is Mason-speak for “heresy.”

Thus in my view we should recognize as an incompatible religious system Freemasonry of any kind and not allow the Orthodox to join their lodges, but we should draw a distinction between the ones who have conspired against us and the Catholics, and those who have included some of our people who did not know better and were unaware of the problems, and who have not attempted to harm us.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,050
8,504
50
The Wild West
✟815,830.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
By the way I think the Serbian Orthodox Archbishop of Ohrid who was subject to false imprisonment by the FYROM government for many years should be considered if he reposes in the faith, well, he would be someone who should be glorified as a confessor, by both the Serbians and North Macedonians and the other Orthodox.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,050
8,504
50
The Wild West
✟815,830.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Correct, the country is the Republic of North Macedonia. However, the name of the Local Church there is Macedonian Orthodox Church - Archdiocese of Ohrid, MOC-OA. And since that the the name that the OCA has decided to use, that is what I'm using in this thread - especially since the article comes from the OCA herself.

The Churches of Serbia, Romania, Czech Lands and Slovakia, Constantinople, Russian, Georgian, Albanian, Antiochian, and, Jerusalem Churches; also recognize the Church in the same name as the OCA. The Bulgarian Church doesn't recognize the "Archdiocese of Ohrid" part and the Church of Greece (Athens) I don't believe recognizes the "Macedonia" part, but both still recognize her autocephaly. Not sure about the rest of the Greek Churches like Cyprus or Alexandria, but I think they just haven't recognized the autocephaly part.

And while she did begin as schismatic, as have many other currently autocephalous Local Churches, I think at the very minimum their return to canonical Orthodoxy is worth celebrating. I think it is also worth celebrating that part of their return included the reintegration of the then-Serbian-led Archdiocese of Ohrid previously led by a once imprisoned Archbishop Jovan of the Serbian Orthodox Church. He is now a part of the MOC-OA and from all reports all prior bad blood has been forgiven.

Indeed, Archbishop Jovan was tortured while in prison, and I think, as I just posted, that when he reposes he will likely be glorified by the Serbians and North Macedonians as a confessor.

The real enemy was the nationalist plants in the FYROM church who represented their oppressive government. It was a bit like a diet version of Rennovationism in the Soviet Union.
 
Upvote 0

E.C.

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2007
13,874
1,438
✟181,427.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Indeed, Archbishop Jovan was tortured while in prison, and I think, as I just posted, that when he reposes he will likely be glorified by the Serbians and North Macedonians as a confessor.

The real enemy was the nationalist plants in the FYROM church who represented their oppressive government. It was a bit like a diet version of Rennovationism in the Soviet Union.
Agreed on Archbishop Jovan, however, that depends on how he lives the rest of his earthly life.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,050
8,504
50
The Wild West
✟815,830.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Agreed on Archbishop Jovan, however, that depends on how he lives the rest of his earthly life.

Indeed. If he apostatizes obviously that precludes being a confessor.
 
Upvote 0