People who die as infants go to Heaven, right? Is there a good argument to the contrary?

[Hentenza]

Forgive me, I don’t understand what you mean in that case by your reply to ViaCrucis: “The hypocrisy in your position is that your church even has an escape doctrine for those that were unable to get baptized because they were never reached.”

My view is that his position is not hypocritical. I don’t agree with all Lutheran doctrine, but I can find no hypocrisy in it.

If that’s not what you meant, then please forgive me, it looked like you were saying that the position of ViaCrucis was hypocritical, which I found to be a bit harsh.

I also pray for a civil discussion and so perhaps we should take a breath and recognize each other as pious Christians.

The hypocrisy was not directed at ViaCrucis but at the doctrine. Forgive me if I didn’t make that clear.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Here is a question along the same line. Not wanting to start any argument. Just looking for ideas.
A woman has a miscarriage 24 hours after conception.
Does the "POC" (sic) possess a spirit and live on after death?
Any scripture to support your idea?

 

[Hentenza]

I assume not, from an Orthodox perspective, since catechumens are not regarded as condemned if they die before baptism, but if one strictly followed St. Augustine the answer would probably be yes.

You hit it on the head. Paedobaptism became the norm of the church at the time of Augustine but I think there is credible evidence from the second century. The Bible does not include examples of infant baptisms unless you assume that family baptisms necessarily included children but that would be an assumption.

That said, there are no benefits in not baptizing, chrismating and providing the Eucharist to infants. We do all three usually on the same Sunday, by baptizing before the Divine Liturgy, so from the font to the chalice takes about two and a half to three hours, maybe a bit more if a bishop is present.

I believe in credobaptism. Children can’t freely accept the Lord as babies. Maybe here is were we diverge in our opinion of salvation of children.

 

[Hentenza]

Here is a question along the same line. Not wanting to start any argument. Just looking for ideas.
A woman has a miscarriage 24 hours after conception.
Does the "POC" (sic) possess a spirit and live on after death?
Any scripture to support your idea?

A couple of verses to ponder.


“Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.””
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB 1995 (NASB1995) | Download The Bible App Now

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

bible.com

“For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭139‬:‭13‬, ‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Psalms 139:13-16 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame | New American Standard Bible -

For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame

bible.com

God knew us before we were formed in the womb so it seems that the spirit (soul) was already there.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A couple of verses to ponder.


“Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.””
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB 1995 (NASB1995) | Download The Bible App Now

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

bible.com

“For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭139‬:‭13‬, ‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Psalms 139:13-16 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame | New American Standard Bible -

For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame

bible.com

God knew us before we were formed in the womb so it seems that the spirit (soul) was already there.

Wow... this one is pretty definitive:

“For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭139‬:‭13‬, ‭16‬ ‭NASB1995
‬‬
Thanks so much.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The hypocrisy was not directed at ViaCrucis but at the doctrine. Forgive me if I didn’t make that clear.

Elaborate. Where and what is the hypocrisy?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hentenza]

Elaborate. Where and what is the hypocrisy?

-CryptoLutheran

To have a doctrine to exempt those that could not be baptized (unreached peoples, etc) and then believe that children that are not baptized and die are condemned.

 

[RDKirk]

God knew us before we were formed in the womb so it seems that the spirit (soul) was already there.

Not necessarily. I'm not arguing here or there on when the soul comes into existence, but "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" doesn't relate to the existence of the soul in the zygote.

In God's eternal knowledge, He knew each of us before He even created the universe.

 

[RDKirk]

Wow... this one is pretty definitive:

“For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭139‬:‭13‬, ‭16‬ ‭NASB1995
‬‬
Thanks so much.

All that was true of all persons before God created the universe, so it doesn't answer the question of when, precisely, a particular embryo acquires a soul.

 

[Hentenza]

Not necessarily. I'm not arguing here or there on when the soul comes into existence, but "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" doesn't relate to the existence of the soul in the zygote.

In God's eternal knowledge, He knew each of us before He even created the universe.

I said “seems”. I also said these were verses to ponder. I believe that life begins at conception but as a matter of faith. I dont think you can argue against it either.

 

[Hentenza]

All that was true of all persons before God created the universe, so it doesn't answer the question of when, precisely, a particular embryo acquires a soul.

This is an over reach on your part. Nothing in this verse states that this passage refers to before creation.

 

[RDKirk]

This is an over reach on your part. Nothing in this verse states that this passage refers to before creation.

We see in other verses, however, that God knew us before creation.

And are you actually arguing that God was ignorant of us before creation?

 

[Hentenza]

We see in other verses, however, that God knew us before creation.

And are you actually arguing that God was ignorant of us before creation?

Nope. I’m arguing that the particular verse that you cited does not denote before creation which you argued in your post. God knows everyone and everything before creation including all stages of your life, from conception to death. My belief of life at conception derives from my faith not from definitive proof. The opposite is also true, you can not prove that life does not begin at conception with any degree of proof.

 

[d taylor]

It is, at least for some necessary, or else Christ our True God wouldn’t have commissioned the Holy Apostles to do it in Matthew 28:19, which we see in practice in Acts.

As for its broader importance, see 1 Corinthians.

-

​

But Matthew is addressing making disciples. A person first has to be a believer before they can be a disciple and the only condition to become a believer is to believe in Jesus.

 

[LizaMarie]

Lutherans and Orthodox agree on most things it seems! What Lutheran church are you with?

WELS(Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)!

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

your doctrine which is not universal and damning little children simply because they didn’t get a head washing.

Chapter and verse

I’m going to stop you right there. Since when do the words of Jesus follow a linear timeline? His words work both forward and backwards. From alpha to omega. It seems to me that you are boxing Jesus only based on your doctrine which is not universal and damning little children simply because they didn’t get a head washing.

Think about your own logic before jumping to your death feet first accusing others of fallacies.

I have no idea what you are talking about----before you comment on others, you might follow your own advice "Think about your own logic before jumping to your death feet first accusing others of fallacies.

 

[Hentenza]

Chapter and verse

Of his doctrine?

I have no idea what you are talking about----before you comment on others, you might follow your own advice "Think about your own logic before jumping to your death feet first accusing others of fallacies.

Lol I was not even talking to you and you come out guns blazing. Chill out bud.

 

[RDKirk]

Nope. I’m arguing that the particular verse that you cited does not denote before creation which you argued in your post. God knows everyone and everything before creation including all stages of your life, from conception to death. My belief of life at conception derives from my faith not from definitive proof. The opposite is also true, you can not prove that life does not begin at conception with any degree of proof.

Well, a zygote is certainly alive, and I don't think anyone argues that point.

Further, I don't think the people you're in real contention with actually care whether it has a soul or spirit.

Those who do actually care, but don't know when, would be loathe to take the chance.

 

[Hentenza]

Well, a zygote is certainly alive, and I don't think anyone argues that point.

Further, I don't think the people you're in real contention with actually care whether it has a soul or spirit.

Those who do actually care, but don't know when, would be loathe to take the chance.

Who am I in real contention with? This thread is about whether children that die go to heaven. I don’t think the secular folks care.

 

[ViaCrucis]

To have a doctrine to exempt those that could not be baptized (unreached peoples, etc) and then believe that children that are not baptized and die are condemned.

Oh ok, so then my church believes that a child that isn't baptized automatically goes to hell then. Given that you were involved in this site for many years and you know so much about my church, then you can provide an example my church believing that, or of me saying "all unbaptized babies" go to hell.

Shouldn't be too hard, after all, you know what my church believes.

-CryptoLutheran