No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Spiritual Jew]

Im not going to address it because you under strong delusion to believe a lie

Translation: You have no way of reconciling 2 Peter 2:1 with your doctrine, so instead acknowledging that, you choose to ignore it instead.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

One is saved when the drawing begins

What do you mean by this exactly? You're saying you think people repent and believe immediately when the drawing begins? What do you think is happening exactly "when the drawing begins"?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is important to look at context. To whom do the Spirit and the bride say, "Come?"

Everyone. God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), which is why He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) and why He commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, we cannot come to Him unless He enables it. And yet He also draws and beckons us to come, to open the door, and also to remain. We’re lost; we cannot possibly find God on our own but…we can still refuse to be found by Him, to be saved. We can say “no”. Grace is resistible.

Right. That is what Calvinists do not understand. They have no explanation for how those who they say are not among the elect and not called to salvation can resist the Spirit. I wonder what they think the unbelieving Jews Stephen was rebuking were resisting exactly except for the Spirit's call to repentance and faith in Christ?

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

It would seem that Calvinists do not believe that the non-elect, who they think are totally depraved and completely unable to respond to the gospel with repentance and faith, would have anything to resist when it comes to the Holy Spirit. They do not believe that God wants the non-elect to be saved, so how and why would they have anything to resist, as it relates to the Holy Spirit, in that case?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, when you are drawn you are born of the Spirit, faith is a fruit of the Spirt, so when the born again person is led to the truth of the gospel, they begin to hear it and believe it. Faith is activated because of the Spirit in you

But, that drawing, which is of all people (John 12:32), can be resisted. What else do you think the unbelieving Jews that Stephen rebuked were resisting other than the Holy Spirit's call for them to repent and believe in Christ?

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

 

[ThatDumbChicken]

Being a Calvinist is believing you won the eternal lottery ticket and those who didn't are doomed to torment forever.

Sheesh.

 

[Brightfame52]

A person dead in trespasses and sin cannot come to Christ because he does not have the will to come, nor can he hear the Word of God John 5:40; 8:43

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 3

 

[Brightfame52]

I don't think there is any use to push you further on this. At least we can agree that we disagree.

okay, we definitely disagree

 

[Brightfame52]

We can believe, in response to grace, to His calling. Faith, in fact, is the grafting into the Vine that means life for us.

Again men dont act until they are alive or have being. B4 that we are dead to the things of God, how can we believe the things of God and be dead to them, alienated from them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Translation: You have no way of reconciling 2 Peter 2:1 with your doctrine, so instead acknowledging that, you choose to ignore it instead.

Did I speak in spanish ? Im not going to explain it to you, you just will believe a lie. Not that I cant, I have started threads on it, but im not. I will say that you have a low view of the death of Christ that dishonors Him.

 

[Brightfame52]

What do you mean by this exactly? You're saying you think people repent and believe immediately when the drawing begins? What do you think is happening exactly "when the drawing begins"?

Im mean one is saved when Gods begins to draw them, they are a new creature.

 

[Brightfame52]

But, that drawing, which is of all people (John 12:32), can be resisted. What else do you think the unbelieving Jews that Stephen rebuked were resisting other than the Holy Spirit's call for them to repent and believe in Christ?

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Negative, those drawn in Jn 12:32 are saved and converted. Acts 7 51 has noting to with them

 

[fhansen]

A person dead in trespasses and sin cannot come to Christ because he does not have the will to come, nor can he hear the Word of God John 5:40; 8:43

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 3

By grace God stirs and prompts and draws us but does not overhwhelm anyone such that they cannot refuse.

 

[d taylor]

Thank you. That is the very, very right and good-and humble- approach IMO, and one which surprises me as I've had many of the Calvinist stripe here defending absolute assurance of perseverance, and therefore of salvation. I think the best way to see it is hypothetical: the elect will, of course, persevere, but I cannot know with absolute perfect certainty whether or not I'm numbered among them.

-
​

So you do not believe God's promise.

I do and i have 100% absolute assurance i have receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, no matter how my life turns out.

I would run as fast as i could, away from any theology or church that teaches and believes God's promises can not be believed.

 

[fhansen]

Again men dont act until they are alive or have being. B4 that we are dead to the things of God, how can we believe the things of God and be dead to them, alienated from them.

It doesn’t work that way. Scripture portrays fallen man with many metaphors: lost, in need of being found/saved, captive, in need of being freed, sick, in need of being healed, asleep, in need of being awoken, dead, in need of being raised. The church has never taken this in any kind of wooden manner, that the light of God’s image and likeness is totally eradicated in man along with his will. His will is corrupted, compromised, obscured, dumbed down, distracted by worthless and ungodly pursuits; his chief disadvantage or wound is the very alienation from God that he’s born into since the Fall.

And God's grace most definitely must precede man's renewal to life; we can't find, save, free, heal, or raise ourselves; we need the Doctor, the Savior. to come to us. But from there we must respond, and we can say "no" instead. And once we say "yes", we must continue to do so for as long as we have, or repent and return to that "yes" if we've strayed from it, all aided by grace but not overwhelmd by it such that we're merely Christian automatons now who could never again say "no".

Our justification and therefore our salvation lies not merely in believing, but in the union with God that results from that faith, the union that Jesus came to restore by reconciling us with Him. From there, from that state of righteousness, true justice/righteousness flows, as we remain Him.

 

[fhansen]

-
​

So you do not believe God's promise.

I do and i have 100% absolute assurance i have receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, no matter how my life turns out.

I take the whole counsel of Scripture into account, the carrots along with the sticks. I certainly wouldn't have a great deal of confidence either way if I were engaging in truly serious sin, "sin that leads to death" as it were. The notion of reducing all good fruit to no more that having faith is almost as anti-gospel as it gets, trying to fit a novel interpretation of Scripture into a box it isn't quite made for. Fortunately most Christians live as if what they do matters, regardless of professed theology.

 

[Brightfame52]

By grace God stirs and prompts and draws us but does not overhwhelm anyone such that they cannot refuse.

You have it wrong, by Grace God saves. Drawing is Salvation begun, salvation starts within Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Its a blessing of the Covenant Death of the Great Shepherd Heb 13:20-21

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Drawing is that inward power, the word draw ἕλκω:

, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

 

[Brightfame52]

@fhansen

It doesn’t work that way.

yes it does, no life, no movement, action, activity.

 

[Dan Perez]

It is important to look at context. To whom do the Spirit and the bride say, "Come?"

“16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” (Re 22:16-17 NKJV)

So the context is that the Spirit and the bride (Christ's church) are saying, "Come" to Christ. As John Gill wrote in his commentary: "Hearing Christ say that he should come quickly, Re 22:7,12 the Spirit and the bride express an earnest wish, and a most affectionate desire after his coming: by "the Spirit" may be meant the Spirit of God in the hearts of his people, who not only convinces them of, and acquaints with the coming of Christ to judgment, and gives them reason to expect it, but fills their souls with the love of his appearance, so that they look and long for it, and hasten in the breathings of their souls after it."

This view is confirmed later in the chapter:

“He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!” (Re 22:20 NKJV)

AND 1 Cor n 12:13. say that we are one body !!

#1 Verse. 14n. says we are not one member but many .

# 2 Says we are his foot

# 3 Verse 16 we are his eyes

# 4 Verse 17. , we are his sense of hearing. and sense of smelling

We are Christ so who is the Bride. ?

dan p

 

[fhansen]

You have it wrong, by Grace God saves. Drawing is Salvation begun, salvation starts within Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Its a blessing of the Covenant Death of the Great Shepherd Heb 13:20-21

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Drawing is that inward power, the word draw ἕλκω:

, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

You can be confident that that is God's purpose and yet Paul knew full well that it's still contingent on our remaining in Him. That's why we're told to remain in Him, and to strive, to be vigilant, persist in doing good, make effort, persevere, etc , etc. Again, both carrots and sticks are offered. Some people don't want to hear about those nasty sticks even if they' exist for their own good. Wouldn't want to think God would actually place any demands or obligations on us poor little believers that we might need to be cognizant of. But go ahead and ignore Scripture where it doesn't fit with your preferences.

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

Jesus had a pretty good idea about it as well:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

If you've got the fruit, then you should have more confidence.