No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[zoidar]

faith comes with the drawing, when Salvation begins

What do you mean "Salvation begins"? You mean salvation is a process?

 

[fhansen]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power

Yes, we cannot come to Him unless He enables it. And yet He also draws and beckons us to come, to open the door, and also to remain. We’re lost; we cannot possibly find God on our own but…we can still refuse to be found by Him, to be saved. We can say “no”. Grace is resistible.

 

[d taylor]

What do you mean "Salvation begins"? You mean salvation is a process?

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Sure Calvinist do, that is why, he posted to another poster (post #423) see you at the judgment. Calvinist have no assurance of salvation, they believe a person has to persevere to the end. Then they will be judged to see if they persevered to the end.

 

[Brightfame52]

What do you mean "Salvation begins"? You mean salvation is a process?

When God begins to draw, thats the New Birth, Spiritual life imparted. The initial quickening is once and for all, conversion can be a process as the new creature learns truth, that's why it says the drawn one shall be taught of God, thats a process Jn 6:44-45

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[fhansen]

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Sure Calvinist do, that is why, he posted to another poster (post #423) see you at the judgment. Calvinist have no assurance of salvation, they believe a person has to persevere to the end. Then they will be judged to see if they persevered to the end.

Wow, is that true? I thought perseverance was guaranteed in Calvinism.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, we cannot come to Him unless He enables it. And yet He also draws and beckons us to come, to open the door, and also to remain. We’re lost; we cannot possibly find God on our own but…we can still refuse to be found by Him, to be saved. We can say “no”. Grace is resistible.

He enables us by saving us and putting His Spirit in us. Drawing is Salvation begun

 

[fhansen]

He enables us by saving us and putting His Spirit in us. Drawing is Salvation begun

If we're saved, then how is it that salvation is begun? Or how would that distinction even matter? He enables us by grace to come to Him. He does not make us automatons who can do no different.

 

[Brightfame52]

If we're saved, then how is it that salvation is begun? Or how would that distinction even matter? He enables us by grace to come to Him. He does not make us automatons who can do no different.

Practical vital Salvation begins at the New Birth, Drawing

 

[fhansen]

Practical vital Salvation begins at the New Birth, Drawing

And the new birth happens as we respond to God's grace, to His calling, by faith. That begins a walk, with Him. And if and as we remain on that path, walking with Him, our salvation takes root and blossoms, and is made more and more sure. We can also stray.

 

[d taylor]

Wow, is that true? I thought perseverance was guaranteed in Calvinism.

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At the 4:30 mark

 

[fhansen]

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At the 4:30 mark

Thank you. That is the very, very right and good-and humble- approach IMO, and one which surprises me as I've had many of the Calvinist stripe here defending absolute assurance of perseverance, and therefore of salvation. I think the best way to see it is hypothetical: the elect will, of course, persevere, but I cannot know with absolute perfect certainty whether or not I'm numbered among them.

 

[zoidar]

When God begins to draw, thats the New Birth, Spiritual life imparted. The initial quickening is once and for all, conversion can be a process as the new creature learns truth, that's why it says the drawn one shall be taught of God, thats a process Jn 6:44-45

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I believe you are drawn, then you repent and as a result you receive God's Spirit and are instantly saved.

 

[Brightfame52]

And the new birth happens as we respond to God's grace, to His calling, by faith. That begins a walk, with Him. And if and as we remain on that path, walking with Him, our salvation takes root and blossoms, and is made more and more sure. We can also stray.

One cant act until they are born into existence.

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe you are drawn, then you repent and as a result you receive God's Spirit and are instantly saved.

Lol you cant do anything spiritual until you are spiritually saved at drawing.

 

[zoidar]

Lol you cant do anything spiritual until you are spiritually saved at drawing.

From your position faith seems utterly meaningless since you are saved before faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

From your position faith seems utterly meaningless since you are saved before faith.

Didnt I say Faith comes with Salvation, when drawn ? You just dont want to give God Credit for Faith, but man.

 

[zoidar]

Didnt I say Faith comes with Salvation, when drawn ? You just dont want to give God Credit for Faith, but man.

Ok, so instantly when you are drawn you have faith? Then repentance is utterly meaningless. It's a consequence of faith that doesn't do anything.

 

[Brightfame52]

Ok, so instantly when you are drawn you have faith? Then repentance is utterly meaningless. It's a consequence of faith that doesn't do anything.

Yes, when you are drawn you are born of the Spirit, faith is a fruit of the Spirt, so when the born again person is led to the truth of the gospel, they begin to hear it and believe it. Faith is activated because of the Spirit in you

 

[zoidar]

Yes, when you are drawn you are born of the Spirit, faith is a fruit of the Spirt, so when the born again person is led to the truth of the gospel, they begin to hear it and believe it. Faith is activated because of the Spirit in you

I don't think there is any use to push you further on this. At least we can agree that we disagree.

 

[fhansen]

One cant act until they are born into existence.

We can believe, in response to grace, to His calling. Faith, in fact, is the grafting into the Vine that means life for us.