No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[d taylor]

What scripture are you using to support that doctrine?

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Romans 5

 

[bling]

The doctrine of original sin and the understanding of the fall from grace and the ensuing change that affected the whole world are not the same. Original sin states we are guilty of Adam’s sin, which we are not. The fall, however, because of its universal consequences affects everyone in that sin entered the world, creating a fallen state (as compared to the perfect state in the Garden of Eden).

All of creation changed, including our nature, putting us in rebellion to God. If we, ourselves, our nature, didn’t change there wouldn’t have been a need to cast us out of the Garden and develop a plan of salvation. It is all entwined together.

First off: The Garden was not described as "perfect" like heaven would be perfect, but as being very good, which can mean as good as could be at the time for the purpose needed. There is no tree of knowledge, satan and fleshly beings in heaven.
God's grace is all around us, in contrast to sin which is also around us on earth, but God determines what sin is and conveys that to us with the Law written on our hearts. Selfishness, lust and coveting was around Adam and Eve in the Garden, but these were not sins prior to them having the knowledge of good and evil which would be knowledge of selfishness, lust and coveting. God did not make these sins, to be "sins", prior to eating the fruit and gaining the knowledge that they were sins.
A baby is not in rebellion to God.
The Garden story tell us many things including the fact that the Garden was a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
This messed up world with lots of tragedies, satan, roaming around, death, hell, and Christ having to go to the cross is actually the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[bling]

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Romans 5

The verse and how you interpret the verse is what I need, since I am in full agreement with Romans 5.

 

[A New Dawn]

The point is God saves those who of their own free will choice chose to surrender to the Father.

That is you inserting into your theology something that isn’t stated in the Bible.

 

[d taylor]

The verse and how you interpret the verse is what I need, since I am in full agreement with Romans 5.

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Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[A New Dawn]

First off: The Garden was not described as "perfect" like heaven would be perfect, but as being very good, which can mean as good as could be at the time for the purpose needed. There is no tree of knowledge, satan and fleshly beings in heaven.
God's grace is all around us, in contrast to sin which is also around us on earth, but God determines what sin is and conveys that to us with the Law written on our hearts. Selfishness, lust and coveting was around Adam and Eve in the Garden, but these were not sins prior to them having the knowledge of good and evil which would be knowledge of selfishness, lust and coveting. God did not make these sins, to be "sins", prior to eating the fruit and gaining the knowledge that they were sins.
A baby is not in rebellion to God.
The Garden story tell us many things including the fact that the Garden was a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
This messed up world with lots of tragedies, satan, roaming around, death, hell, and Christ having to go to the cross is actually the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

Common grace is all around us but salvific grace is not. Only those that God gave to Christ to save receive salvific grace.

And the Bible is silent on the fate of babies, but being born into a fallen world means that their natures are fallen, also.

 

[Mark Quayle]

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I have brown hair, if you believe this. Then tell me how you had to work to believe that i have brown hair.

And this is all that Salvific Faith is? Simple belief? Have you not been quoted before, that the demons also believe?

You will likely retort, as have all those before you, that it is also submission and trust, not just acknowledgement, and that is true, but still lacking what Scripture describes. One fellow told me it is like his trust in his wife, that she has convinced him that she is trustworthy. If that is all this is, I am wondering just who you think God is, and of what little import sin and the fallen nature is.

God is not like us.

 

[bling]

That is you inserting into your theology something that isn’t stated in the Bible.

Exodus 35:29 “All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.” Are these truly free will offerings?

Jonah 3: 10 “When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.” Did the people of Nineveh change what God said he would do?

How is this not saying that God’s actions are contingent on the choices of the people?

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40). Note that Jesus does not say, "you cannot come", which the Greek does not say here, but, "you refuse to come", in order that you may have eternal life. It was their own rejection of Jesus and the Gospel, that would damn their souls, and not because they were "unable" to make the "choice" themselves.

Christ is God here on earth. The “whomsoever” does not mean only the elect, but lots of people, who then made the choice to accept or reject Christ. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)

To say: “Christ only reveals Himself to those who God have chosen to accept Him”, means God is guilty of not helping others to accept Christ.

John 15: 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

If they have no free will, they have an excellent excuse for sinning?

There are all the “whosoever” verses making it contingent.

 

[bling]

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Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

First off: thank you for the verses you want to discuss, but I still need your explanation, since it might be different from mine.

Ro. 5: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Ro 5:12 does not say “because Adam and Eve sinned”, but “because all sinned”. Yes, Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin, so now death will be needed to help humans fulfill their earthly objective. Without death people would have no need to repent and live, so death is needed for at least some people.

Ro. 5: 14… death reigned from Adam to Moses… This is specifically talking about the Law of Moses but, all mature adults sin against the Law written on their hearts.

Also, how is physical death bad in and of itself?

Ro. 5:19… “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners”….

Why is it “Many were made sinners” and not “all (including babies) were made sinners”?

Yes, now after Adam and Eve’s sinned all mature adults will have to sin and since with the knowledge from the tree of knowledge there are tons of ways to sin (Adam and Eve had just one way) all mature adults will sin thanks to that knowledge.

If no one sinned, we would live forever without anyone going to judgement.

Yes, what Christ did for me brought me to him, I can be righteous.

We went from a law on our hearts to the written Law in Ex., Lev., and Duet. Which gave us even more ways to sin.

 

[bling]

Common grace is all around us but salvific grace is not. Only those that God gave to Christ to save receive salvific grace.

And the Bible is silent on the fate of babies, but being born into a fallen world means that their natures are fallen, also.

You say we do not know the fate of babies but turn and say they are fallen, so how can you do that.
And who and why did God give certain people to Jesus? I will tell you all He gave also humbly accepted the invitation to go to the totally undeserving of party.

 

[Brightfame52]

@A New Dawn

Original sin states we are guilty of Adam’s sin, which we are not.

Its actually your sin in Adam, when he sinned all his progeny in him sinned

 

[Brightfame52]

No! there is a big difference between the lost lamb and lost coin, compared to the lost son. The coin and the Lamb did not know the way to safety, while the lost son always knew the way home but did not want to go home, so the father was not going after him.
No! the story does not talk about the father doing something for the son, but only what the father in the past did for others. The son does not go to the father out of "Love" for the father. The more loving thing he could do would be to not further pester his father with undeserved requests and die in the pigsty.

No difference all the same, the lost son was the recipient of the Fathers Love all the time. See God is in control of famines, where they go and who they effect Lk 15:14

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

Ps 105:16

16 Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread.

See God is Sovereign in all the circumstances in our lives, directing all according to His will. He was in full control of the wayward sons life to teach him about grace, and Jesus by the parable was rebuking the self righteousness of the pharisees because they said He ate with sinners,

Lk 15:1-2

15 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

See you just dont understand the context of the whole matter.

 

[zoidar]

I love your story! Praise to God!

My answer to your (rhetorical) question would be no, but yes. No because we can’t seek for God. God chooses and draws us, sometimes the way it happened to me, sometimes the way it happened to you. It is obvious that because you were questioning and putting faith in God that He was already at work in your life, drawing you to Himself. Then I said yes because it is only after he draws you and changes you that you can then make a choice for Him.

Hi friend,

It's clear God drew me. I think most Christians agree God takes the initiative. There is a lot more to the story, but it's too long to share here. I believe God worked in me for years until I finally surrendered. Could I kept resisting the call, I believe so. But as the story goes eventually I got convicted and responded positively. I normally say conviction comes first, then repentance, and lastly regeneration/the new birth. So we got a little different view how it all works. To me conviction is not the same as regeneration. Regeneration follows repentance.

Christ love!

 

[Jack Terrence]

False, its all about His Church, both jew and gentile elect. This is not a race issue. Also all men regardless of ethnicity are slaves to sin

False. Jesus was speaking to Israel. Did your fathers eat manna in the wilderness?

No biblical history revisionism allowed.

 

[A New Dawn]

@A New Dawn


Its actually your sin in Adam, when he sinned all his progeny in him sinned

When he sinned, creation fell. Adam was responsible for his own sin, we are responsible for ours.

 

[Brightfame52]

False. Jesus was speaking to Israel. Did your fathers eat manna in the wilderness?

No biblical history revisionism allowed.

All men are slaves to sin, ethnicity has nothing to do with it

 

[Brightfame52]

When he sinned, creation fell. Adam was responsible for his own sin, we are responsible for ours.

All men sinned in Adam Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[bling]

No difference all the same, the lost son was the recipient of the Fathers Love all the time. See God is in control of famines, where they go and who they effect Lk 15:14

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

Ps 105:16

16 Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread.

See God is Sovereign in all the circumstances in our lives, directing all according to His will. He was in full control of the wayward sons life to teach him about grace, and Jesus by the parable was rebuking the self righteousness of the pharisees because they said He ate with sinners,

Lk 15:1-2

15 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

See you just dont understand the context of the whole matter.

The famine did not cause the son to repent. The fact that the young son was starving to death in a pigsty, did bring the son to his senses, but that did not make the choice for the son. If the son had been macho, he would have accepted the death sentence in the pigsty, he fully deserved and not bothered his father further with some undeserved request.
When the son came to his sense he wimped out and gave up, willing to accept pure undeserved charity from his father. That was not the coin's or the lamb's problem.

 

[A New Dawn]

All men sinned in Adam Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we bear Adam’s sin. Because Adam sinned, we sin. Because Adam sinned, we die. Because Adam sinned, creation fell. The fall changed everything. It is why we are in rebellion to God.

 

[d taylor]

First off: thank you for the verses you want to discuss, but I still need your explanation, since it might be different from mine.

Ro. 5: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Ro 5:12 does not say “because Adam and Eve sinned”, but “because all sinned”. Yes, Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin, so now death will be needed to help humans fulfill their earthly objective. Without death people would have no need to repent and live, so death is needed for at least some people.

Ro. 5: 14… death reigned from Adam to Moses… This is specifically talking about the Law of Moses but, all mature adults sin against the Law written on their hearts.

Also, how is physical death bad in and of itself?

Ro. 5:19… “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners”….

Why is it “Many were made sinners” and not “all (including babies) were made sinners”?

Yes, now after Adam and Eve’s sinned all mature adults will have to sin and since with the knowledge from the tree of knowledge there are tons of ways to sin (Adam and Eve had just one way) all mature adults will sin thanks to that knowledge.

If no one sinned, we would live forever without anyone going to judgement.

Yes, what Christ did for me brought me to him, I can be righteous.

We went from a law on our hearts to the written Law in Ex., Lev., and Duet. Which gave us even more ways to sin.

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​

Death comes to all people because all are sinners through the line of Adam the one man. Sin is not just floating around in the air and we catch it like a cold, it exist in our very being our sin nature. The same as we are born with blood running through our veins we are born with a sin nature in our being.

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Paul uses many as a reference to all for people, but then it comes to Christ the many represents the people who will believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

What Romans 5 is not saying is that all mankind sinned in Adam as its seminal head.

Does Romans 5:12-21 Teach Original Sin? – Grace Evangelical Society