No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[d taylor]

Do you believe a baby sinned by being born or is the baby sinless?

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A baby is born a sinner, but a sinner as they age, with the ability to exercise belief in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[A New Dawn]

OK

I would say 90+% of all soldiers who surrender to their hated enemy, still hate them when the enemy hands them their first meal as Prisoners of war, but they eat the food. It is only after God demonstrates His Love by showering us with gifts to, we start liking Him.

The soldier of satan who just surrenders to his enemy has done nothing deserving of anything good, but should get a torturous death for previous war crimes. The soldiers disrespectful, rebellious disobedience in his past (war crimes) is only deserving of a torturous death, even though he surrendered and that has happened many times in earthly civilizations.

I’m not sure what your point is. We are all that soldier deserving of death because we are all in rebellion to God. But God in his infinite love and mercy decides to save some. But God is not like a prison camp commandant, He is a loving father. We are not his prisoners but His children.

 

[Aaron112]

I understand what you are saying A112. But those people were never born again. They merely assented to His teaching as long as it benefited them. The first time something came up that they did not like, they hit the road.

"They" might be at every service every time the door is open, even when something (often or not) comes up that they did not like..... they might stick around, not "hit the road", because of shame, or pride, or loving the approval of men (who are sinful and wrong).... they might not be discernable at all among a body of believers = in fact, whole entire groups might be (as is the case) the same like that.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

In John 5 & 6 & Jesus was speaking about ancient Israel. What he said cannot be applied to Gentiles. You should kearn to interpret the Bible in its historical context.

 

[Jack Terrence]

And no man leaves unless he was never part of us to start with.

1 John 2:19 KJV
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2 Timothy 2:19 KJV
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 KJV
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

THere have been times in my life, especially early in my walk, when I was so discouraged that I actually wanted to leave and made motions in that direction. I packed my Bibles and books away, and stopped fellowshipping. But I found that I could not get away. He was always there prodding me and picking me up. Believers stay. You cannot just stop being born again. He will not let you go without a fight. And He wins.

Yet the Galatians fell from grace (Galatians 5:4). And Paul said that he could become a reprobate

So there is a disconnect between the verse you quoted and Christ’s words in John. I propose that the disconnect lies in that fact that while God wants everyone to be saved (as all parents would) the only ones that are actually saved are those He has elected to save.

The verse he quoted are also Christ's words. There is no disconnect. The words Christ spoke in John 6 applied before the cross.

 

[zoidar]

Again, you speak about what you don’t know. There is not a thing in Calvinism that suggests that God has to coerce people to become believers. My conversion was the epitome of a Calvinist conversion, if ever there was one. When I was 21, I was running from everyone, including God, after a failed marriage resulting from physical abuse. When I was at my lowest, not seeking, not even wanting to be around anyone. But God reached down and turned my heart from the cold stone it was to one of flesh that He poured all his love and acceptance into. I wasn’t seeking, He didn’t ask me, He did it. He made me his in the blink of an eye and in that moment my old self was put away and there was not even a thought that I could, or would even want to, reject Him. He gave me faith, He has kept me safe in His arms since then.

There was no me seeking Him. There was no free will choice. There was God choosing me and acting on me and sustaining me.

Interesting it was like that for you! God be blessed! I would like to hear more about it.

I will share a little from my life. I was a seeker, I was looking for purpose. One day at work I did my Buddhist practice. Right after when I was heading back to my desk, a guy was reading a newspaper. Right there the heading said with big red letters: "You are being fooled". It struck me, could Buddhism really be wrong, was this God showing me I was on the wrong path. I had thought a lot about Christianity before, but it didn't really appeal to me. But if it was true I wanted to be a Christian.

When I got home I prayed to God for forgiveness. I was afraid He wouldn't forgive me since I had been into New Age and Buddhism for many years. I prayed: "I believe you sent your Son to bear our sins on the cross. If you forgive me I will give you my whole life. I will talk about what you have done to everyone and I will hand out Bibles." I put on a Christian song on Youtube and sang along. Suddenly my heart filled with love. And I felt God's forgiveness being poured over me. I was instanly saved and I knew I now was a Christian.

Was this a free will decision? I don't know. Did I play a part? Obviously yes! By His grace, God responded to my prayer and by mercy He forgave me.

Christ love! ✝️

 

[A New Dawn]

Interesting it was like that for you! God be blessed! I would like to hear more about it.

I will share a little from my life. I was a seeker, I was looking for purpose. One day at work I did my Buddhist practice. Right after when I was heading back to my desk, a guy was reading a newspaper. Right there the heading said with big red letters: "You are being fooled". It struck me, could Buddhism really be wrong, was this God showing me I was on the wrong path. I had thought a lot about Christianity before, but it didn't really appeal to me. But if it was true I wanted to be a Christian.

When I got home I prayed to God for forgiveness. I was afraid He wouldn't forgive me since I had been into New Age and Buddhism for many years. I prayed: "I believe you sent your Son to bear our sins on the cross. If you forgive me I will give you my whole life. I will talk about what you have done to everyone and I will hand out Bibles." I put on a Christian song on Youtube and sang along. Suddenly my heart filled with love. And I felt God's forgiveness being poured over me. I was instanly saved and I knew I now was a Christian.

Was this a free will decision? I don't know. Did I play a part? Obviously yes! By His grace, God responded to my prayer and by mercy He forgave me.

Christ love! ✝️

I love your story! Praise to God!

My answer to your (rhetorical) question would be no, but yes. No because we can’t seek for God. God chooses and draws us, sometimes the way it happened to me, sometimes the way it happened to you. It is obvious that because you were questioning and putting faith in God that He was already at work in your life, drawing you to Himself. Then I said yes because it is only after he draws you and changes you that you can then make a choice for Him.

 

[A New Dawn]

The verse he quoted are also Christ's words. There is no disconnect. The words Christ spoke in John 6 applied before the cross.

I was responding to someone who said that all will be drawn, a universalist’s position. My response was that Christ, in John 6, said that He will save all that the Father gives to him to be saved, and of them He will lose none, but goes on to say that no man can come to [Him] unless the Father grants it. And in that chapter, just like in John 3:16, belief on Him is the gateway.

 

[Brightfame52]

What is your point? You need to learn how to communicate more clearly. It says He draws all people to Him. So, why aren't all people saved then? To me, the reason is clear. It's because we have free will and some choose not to accept the gospel and not to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. That places the blame entirely on those who reject Him rather than giving them an excuse that they didn't believe in Him because they supposedly couldn't believe in Him due to supposedly being totally depraved.

My Point is Christs will caused them to come to Him and believe and follow Him as His Sheep

 

[Brightfame52]

You seem to not be understanding what John 12:32 says. It says that Jesus would draw ALL PEOPLE to Himself. Why are you trying to change that to not refer to all people when it clearly does refer to all people? People can be drawn to Christ by the preaching of the gospel and the Holy Spirit speaking to their hearts, but the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51). That's the explanation for how He can draw all people to Himself without all people being saved.

He did draw all people, all the people He drew unto Himself, duh What you think He attempted to draw them, took a stab at it.

 

[bling]

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A baby is born a sinner, but a sinner as they age, with the ability to exercise belief in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

This brings up the understanding of the Doctrine of "Original Sin". My understanding and lots of other people understand the same way: Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin and by eating the fruit, this past down to mature adults the "Knowledge" of "Good and Evil" in our conscience. This provides every mature adult with tons of ways to sin and thus all will eventually sin. But this does not mean our "nature" changed from the nature Adam and Eve had, since with the nature they had from the beginning and with only one way to sin they sinned, so we, as adults, with tons of ways to sin will sin.
A newborn baby is not hell bound since they have not sinned, they are in a safe condition and not needing to be saved, so we all start out as children of God, as Paul described us all as being God's offspring.

 

[bling]

I’m not sure what your point is. We are all that soldier deserving of death because we are all in rebellion to God. But God in his infinite love and mercy decides to save some. But God is not like a prison camp commandant, He is a loving father. We are not his prisoners but His children.

God decided from the beginning of time to save the "some", who would surrender to Him and not just any "some".

 

[Brightfame52]

The father made the young son alive, by showering him with totally undeserved gifts. If like many a father would do for a son who did what the young son did, lots of fathers would have disowned such a son, kicked him out and not even talked to him, which is what the young son deserved and would have left the son in a dead state.

Correct the Father made him alive again, the focus is on the work, love, and patience of the Father. So when the lad came to his senses, it was the Fathers work in him to return him back home.

The same thing in the other scenes, it was the Shepherds work, and the sweeping woman work. The Parable actually shows the Trinity at work in the Salvation of the elect, all the credit goes to God.

 

[Brightfame52]

In John 5 & 6 & Jesus was speaking about ancient Israel. What he said cannot be applied to Gentiles. You should kearn to interpret the Bible in its historical context.

False, its all about His Church, both jew and gentile elect. This is not a race issue. Also all men regardless of ethnicity are slaves to sin

 

[A New Dawn]

God decided from the beginning of time to save the "some", who would surrender to Him and not just any "some".

Yes, that is true. Again, is there a point?

 

[d taylor]

This brings up the understanding of the Doctrine of "Original Sin". My understanding and lots of other people understand the same way: Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin and by eating the fruit, this past down to mature adults the "Knowledge" of "Good and Evil" in our conscience. This provides every mature adult with tons of ways to sin and thus all will eventually sin. But this does not mean our "nature" changed from the nature Adam and Eve had, since with the nature they had from the beginning and with only one way to sin they sinned, so we, as adults, with tons of ways to sin will sin.
A newborn baby is not hell bound since they have not sinned, they are in a safe condition and not needing to be saved, so we all start out as children of God, as Paul described us all as being God's offspring.

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The sin nature is only passed down through Adam.

 

[A New Dawn]

This brings up the understanding of the Doctrine of "Original Sin". My understanding and lots of other people understand the same way: Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin and by eating the fruit, this past down to mature adults the "Knowledge" of "Good and Evil" in our conscience. This provides every mature adult with tons of ways to sin and thus all will eventually sin. But this does not mean our "nature" changed from the nature Adam and Eve had, since with the nature they had from the beginning and with only one way to sin they sinned, so we, as adults, with tons of ways to sin will sin.
A newborn baby is not hell bound since they have not sinned, they are in a safe condition and not needing to be saved, so we all start out as children of God, as Paul described us all as being God's offspring.

The doctrine of original sin and the understanding of the fall from grace and the ensuing change that affected the whole world are not the same. Original sin states we are guilty of Adam’s sin, which we are not. The fall, however, because of its universal consequences affects everyone in that sin entered the world, creating a fallen state (as compared to the perfect state in the Garden of Eden).

All of creation changed, including our nature, putting us in rebellion to God. If we, ourselves, our nature, didn’t change there wouldn’t have been a need to cast us out of the Garden and develop a plan of salvation. It is all entwined together.

 

[bling]

Correct the Father made him alive again, the focus is on the work, love, and patience of the Father. So when the lad came to his senses, it was the Fathers work in him to return him back home.

The same thing in the other scenes, it was the Shepherds work, and the sweeping woman work. The Parable actually shows the Trinity at work in the Salvation of the elect, all the credit goes to God.

No! there is a big difference between the lost lamb and lost coin, compared to the lost son. The coin and the Lamb did not know the way to safety, while the lost son always knew the way home but did not want to go home, so the father was not going after him.
No! the story does not talk about the father doing something for the son, but only what the father in the past did for others. The son does not go to the father out of "Love" for the father. The more loving thing he could do would be to not further pester his father with undeserved requests and die in the pigsty.

 

[bling]

Yes, that is true. Again, is there a point?

The point is God saves those who of their own free will choice chose to surrender to the Father.

 

[bling]

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The sin nature is only passed down through Adam.

What scripture are you using to support that doctrine?