No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[d taylor]

What is your proof that he was spiritually alive in the beginning of the parable?

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“A certain man had two sons.

In other words God had two sons, unbelievers are not sons of God

 

[Brightfame52]

@bling

I am not suggesting anyone raises themselves from the dead.

Well how was he alive again when he was dead ?

 

[A New Dawn]

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“A certain man had two sons.

In other words God had two sons, unbelievers are not sons of God

And, I’d go so far as to suggest that neither of them were spiritually alive. The older son was being obedient, not out of love but out of the knowledge of what he stood to inherit (which comes into evidence later in the story.). The younger son wanted his inheritance up front out of greed so he could live a wanton life with ease, also demonstrating he was not spiritually alive. However, after reaching the bottom of his barrel, so to speak, his heart was changed and he realized the pain he caused his father and came to repentance and the father welcomed him home. But the older son, whose heart was hard spoke against him causing the father to turn his back on him because there was no joy in his heart for his brother who returned.

Neither were spiritually alive in the beginning, but one was in the end.

Amazon.com

 

[BBAS 64]

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R. C. Sproul is certainly not someone to listen to, he was not even sure he is even a born again child of God. That is a sign of someone basing their eternal life on actions they are doing and will do. I am sure he believes he will be at the great white throne judgment to be judged to see if he makes it.

4:33 time mark if you do not want to listen the whole video

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[BBAS 64]

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R. C. Sproul is certainly not someone to listen to, he was not even sure he is even a born again child of God. That is a sign of someone basing their eternal life on actions they are doing and will do. I am sure he believes he will be at the great white throne judgment to be judged to see if he makes it.

4:33 time mark if you do not want to listen the whole video

Good day, Dtaylor

I love RC as do many people... I assume you have not spent much time listening to Him.

I would suggest His testimony

As to the time stamp you really need to hear the whole thing his comparisons are needed to understand the context.

RC said "if" he was deceiving himself. As to his teaching on the White Throne Judgment rather than speculate and misrepresent someone may be dig up his teaching on the subject so that you are accurate in what you merely assert.

In Him,

Bill

 

[d taylor]

Good day, Dtaylor

I love RC as do many people... I assume you have not spent much time listening to Him.

I would suggest His testimony

As to the time stamp you really need to hear the whole thing his comparisons are needed to understand the context.

RC said "if" he was deceiving himself. As to his teaching on the White Throne Judgment rather than speculate and misrepresent someone may be dig up his teaching on the subject so that you are accurate in what you merely assert.

In Him,

Bill

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Wow no wonder he is not sure of his eternal destiny, not once did i hear him say he believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life

 

[Mark Quayle]

That does not include faith. You are making that up. The context of that statement is in relation to fruit/works, not faith. Please stop taking scripture out of context like this.

Are you suggesting that you never made any good choices before being in Christ? That's nonsense.

Before I was "in Christ" I made many good choices --that is, they were better options than the others-- but they were not righteous. They were sinful. This even includes the choice to "accept Christ". It is empty and useless, apart from God having already made me alive in Christ, out of being dead in sin (Ephesians 2). Romans 8 says that when I am not spiritually minded, I am at enmity with God, unable to please God.

One's repentance and submission is angst at best --not reality-- if it is not done by FAITH, which is a gift of God alone. Not of our strength of will.

Why do you make faith an exception to the verse? (The context of the verse does not change my use of it. Besides that, the whole of Scripture is also its context). Show me wrong there.

Every thing we do apart from Christ is corrupt. We are unable to have valid faith, if God has not made us alive. That kind of faith is from above, not generated by man's spirit, but by God's Spirit. God's creation, not ours.

 

[d taylor]

And, I’d go so far as to suggest that neither of them were spiritually alive. The older son was being obedient, not out of love but out of the knowledge of what he stood to inherit (which comes into evidence later in the story.). The younger son wanted his inheritance up front out of greed so he could live a wanton life with ease, also demonstrating he was not spiritually alive. However, after reaching the bottom of his barrel, so to speak, his heart was changed and he realized the pain he caused his father and came to repentance and the father welcomed him home. But the older son, whose heart was hard spoke against him causing the father to turn his back on him because there was no joy in his heart for his brother who returned.

Neither were spiritually alive in the beginning, but one was in the end.

Amazon.com

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They were sons of their Father, who is God in the parable. If you do not believe this, well then there is really noting else to discuss.

 

[Fervent]

No, a person can make both free will and instinctive or environmental choices. There is only the need for a few limited free will mental choice (they do not have to be acted on), like mentally you can lust after a woman and never physically do anything with that woman, but the thought is a sin.
Following God is a righteous choice a practicing sinner cannot make, but the sinner for purely selfish reasons can be willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity, even while hating the charity giver.

I sympathize with your argument, but I think you're focusing too much on noise. Free will doesn't really come into the equation because none of us seek God, but that doesn't mean we don't make the choice to respond to God's initiative when we hear the gospel preached to us. The Calvinist position presents a false dilemma, and arguments like this play into it because they try to climb the mountain without addressing the simple fact that surrender is not the same as taking action, and the gospel is a call to surrender to the overwhelming love of God. It all begins with God's action, His seeking us out.

 

[Mark Quayle]

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Wow no wonder he is not sure of his eternal destiny, not once did i hear him say he believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life

Yet, you are the one who just finished saying:

That is a sign of someone basing their eternal life on actions they are doing and will do.

YOU are the one claiming your eternal life depends on YOUR choice to believe in Jesus. THAT is an action YOU do! I don't think anyone is saying you do not choose, but that your choice is not valid apart from Christ making you alive. One chooses to believe because God has already done that in him. FAITH is a gift of God. Eph 2

I once thought that way. Now I can't even fathom thinking my eternity is hinged on my weak, ignorant, self-centered, angst-filled flippant decision.

Does your life show that your decision is valid? Sproul believed his eternal life depended on God alone, and not, as you naturally distort his meaning, according to your mindset of self-determination, to be dependent on whether or not he is obedient, but rather, that his obedience is demonstrative of who indwells him. If disobedient, it is indicative of failure to believe, and of not being in Christ.

 

[A New Dawn]

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They were sons of their Father, who is God in the parable. If you do not believe this, well then there is really noting else to discuss.

Just because we are part of God’s creation does not mean we are Children of God. That comes with Adoption, or, as we call it, regeneration. It is a Biblical principle that you seem to be overlooking.

 

[A New Dawn]

I sympathize with your argument, but I think you're focusing too much on noise. Free will doesn't really come into the equation because none of us seek God, but that doesn't mean we don't make the choice to respond to God's initiative when we hear the gospel preached to us. The Calvinist position presents a false dilemma, and arguments like this play into it because they try to climb the mountain without addressing the simple fact that surrender is not the same as taking action, and the gospel is a call to surrender to the overwhelming love of God. It all begins with God's action, His seeking us out.

Where are you getting your information about what Calvinists believe? Because you have missed the mark with everything you present as “the Calvinist position”.

 

[Fervent]

Where are you getting your information about what Calvinists believe? Because you have missed the mark with everything you present as “the Calvinist position”.

In what way? Calvinists present a false dichotomy between man having any role in the salvation and man choosing to save himself. Do you deny that Calvinists insist on "monergism" and insist that the sole separation between the elect and the non-elect is God's arbitrary selection of individuals? Tell me, how did I miss the mark?

 

[A New Dawn]

In what way? Calvinists present a false dichotomy between man having any role in the salvation and man choosing to save himself. Do you deny that Calvinists insist on "monergism" and insist that the sole separation between the elect and the non-elect is God's arbitrary selection of individuals? Tell me, how did I miss the mark?

What is the false dichotomy?
And who are you to dictate whom God should give His gifts to?

The statement you made that I took issue with was, “they try to climb the mountain without addressing the simple fact that surrender is not the same as taking action, and the gospel is the call to surrender to the overwhelming love of God.”

Firstly, is surrendering not an action to be taken???

Secondly, it is only by humbling ourselves and surrendering to the overwhelming love of God that we can respond to God’s work in our lives and move forward with the good works that we were created unto in Christ Jesus.

To suggest that this is beyond anything a Calvinist believe is not just insulting, it shows that you have no idea what Calvinists believe.

 

[d taylor]

Yet, you are the one who just finished saying:

YOU are the one claiming your eternal life depends on YOUR choice to believe in Jesus. THAT is an action YOU do! I don't think anyone is saying you do not choose, but that your choice is not valid apart from Christ making you alive. One chooses to believe because God has already done that in him. FAITH is a gift of God. Eph 2

I once thought that way. Now I can't even fathom thinking my eternity is hinged on my weak, ignorant, self-centered, angst-filled flippant decision.

Does your life show that your decision is valid? Sproul believed his eternal life depended on God alone, and not, as you naturally distort his meaning, according to your mindset of self-determination, to be dependent on whether or not he is obedient, but rather, that his obedience is demonstrative of who indwells him. If disobedient, it is indicative of failure to believe, and of not being in Christ.

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That is right i became a permanent born again child of God when I believed in Jesus for Eternal Life. And to your misunderstanding it was not a choice i made. I was convinced by the evidence The Bible presents that Jesus is who He says He is and that Eternal Life is received by believing in Jesus for Eternal Life.

When a person comes to believe the evidence (they are being presented with) is true, they will believe what the evidence is stating and will believe it, it is not a choice a person has to make. Like hey, this is true so i guess i will believe it.

Did you choose to believe George Washington was Americas first President

My Eternal life does not rest on my actions, it depends only on God's promise that anyone who believes in Jesus for Eternal Life has it.

 

[BBAS 64]

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Wow no wonder he is not sure of his eternal destiny, not once did i hear him say he believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life

Good day,

Not sure why you assert "he was not sure"

“We have a doctrine called the perseverance of the saints. I do not like that name for it; while saints do persevere, it is not because they have the power of perseverance within themselves. If it were left to me to persevere in my Christian walk, I would fall and stumble in a moment. The One who really perseveres is God. He perseveres with His children and thereby preserves them. One of the chief ways in which God preserves His people is through the priestly intercession of Jesus.”​

― R.C. Sproul, The Work of Christ: What the Events of Jesus' Life Mean for You

I do not believe I have ever used that phase neither... maybe the bigger question is what is the Gospel.

Of course RC covers that as well.

In Him

Bill

 

[Mark Quayle]

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That is right i became a permanent born again child of God when I believed in Jesus for Eternal Life. And to your misunderstanding it was not a choice i made. I was convinced by the evidence The Bible presents that Jesus is who He says He is and that Eternal Life is received by believing in Jesus for Eternal Life.

So you have said before. You became convinced, by which you suddenly had faith. Generated from within you, by you, upon being convinced. Not by the Spirit of God, who alone is capable of changing your very nature, generating that Faith.

When a person comes to believe the evidence (they are being presented with) is true, they will believe what the evidence is stating and will believe it, it is not a choice a person has to make. Like hey, this is true so i guess i will believe it.

Yes, but that is simple, fleshly, belief. Do you say your belief, in your arrangement here, does not please God? Because nobody with the mind of flesh is able to please God (Romans 8:8 and context). You have the cart before the horse.

Did you choose to believe George Washington was Americas first President

False equivalence.

My Eternal life does not rest on my actions, it depends only on God's promise that anyone who believes in Jesus for Eternal Life has it.

So you do not choose to believe, accept, submit? There was no tipping point, where you gave up your corrupt will of the flesh? Are you saying that your belief did not result in regeneration, but rather, that your regeneration was you becoming convinced?

Let me put it like this: Do you not hold to synergism, where God's work in saving is added to, completed, or enabled by YOU?

 

[d taylor]

So you have said before. You became convinced, by which you suddenly had faith. Generated from within you, by you, upon being convinced. Not by the Spirit of God, who alone is capable of changing your very nature, generating that Faith.

Yes, but that is simple, fleshly, belief. Do you say your belief, in your arrangement here, does not please God? Because nobody with the mind of flesh is able to please God (Romans 8:8 and context). You have the cart before the horse.

False equivalence.

So you do not choose to believe, accept, submit? There was no tipping point, where you gave up your corrupt will of the flesh? Are you saying that your belief did not result in regeneration, but rather, that your regeneration was you becoming convinced?

Let me put it like this: Do you not hold to synergism, where God's work in saving is added to, completed, or enabled by YOU?

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I have brown hair, if you believe this. Then tell me how you had to work to believe that i have brown hair.

 

[A New Dawn]

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I have brown hair, if you believe this. Then tell me how you had to work to believe that i have brown hair.

Why do we have to believe or disbelieve that? It’s nothing more than a claim you made. It’s not pertinent to me in the least. It’s not a salvific issue. However, belief in Christ and eternal life is a salvific issue and there is only one way to know the truth of that, and that is the work of God on our heart of stone.

 

[Fervent]

What is the false dichotomy?
And who are you to dictate whom God should give His gifts to?

The false dichotomy is the all-or-nothing presentation that Calvinists subscribe to.

The statement you made that I took issue with was, “they try to climb the mountain without addressing the simple fact that surrender is not the same as taking action, and the gospel is the call to surrender to the overwhelming love of God.”

That wasn't in regard to Calvinist doctrine, the "they" was in regard to his rebuttal(and similar methods of argumentation) to Calvinist arguments.

Firstly, is surrendering not an action to be taken???

No, surrendering is not an action. It's the opposite of action.

Secondly, it is only by humbling ourselves and surrendering to the overwhelming love of God that we can respond to God’s work in our lives and move forward with the good works that we were created unto in Christ Jesus.

Sure, but Calvinist doctrine requires us to first be regenerated before we can surrender. But there is no Biblical support for regeneration preceding faith, and no reason to suspect surrender to God's initiative requires supernatural enablement.

To suggest that this is beyond anything a Calvinist believe is not just insulting, it shows that you have no idea what Calvinists believe.

Do Calvinists not believe that one must be regenerated before they can believe God?