By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

[BobRyan]

I don't think you will find a single Pharisee or scribe who would heal on a sabbath, mush less strip grain for a meal.

Moses and Aaron were priests and they healed people
imagining a text in the OT where priests are told not to heal someone on Sabbath - is not the same as having such a text.

Isn't once enough for you ?

That "once" tells us that the Sabbath was "made for mankind" rather than "made for the old testament" or "made for Jews" as some have imagined.
It is exactly what we see in Gen 2:2-3 at the making of both mankind and the Sabbath.

No wonder the Sabbath commandment points us to Gen 2.
No wonder Christ does that as well in Mark 2:27

Amen, and aren't you glad we can now keep every day holy and devoted to Him, since Jesus' death and resurrection ?

A day not sanctified - set apart -- devoid of secular work - is not being "kept holy".

 

[Hoping2]

How so?

Because the application of His blood is how we are now sanctified, made clean.
Without that blood, there would be no permanent holiness.

Recall that under the Jer 31:31-34 the Law of God is written on the heart.

Yep, there is no longer a need for a list of 400 plus ordinances.

Paul has Timothy circumcised immediately after the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. That was not to guarantee that Timothy forfeited salvation - as it turns out.

Nope, But would Tim have been allowed into the Jewish synagogues to preach if he had not been circumcised ?
Thee neighbors all knew Tim's dad was a Greek !

In Acts 21 Paul takes steps to PROVE "walks orderly keeping the law" and makes it clear that those who falsely accused him of telling Jews not to circumcise their children - were engaged in lying against him.

Are you a Jew, or a Gentile ?
(Something I have often wondered is, why did God grant the Gentiles such liberty, but not the Jews too ?
I found that the same liberty is available to anyone who will trust in Jesus for their salvation, instead of trusting the Law of Moses.)

The Gal 5:4 statement by Paul was written specifically to gentiles who were convinced by Judaizers of the Acts 15:1-2 false theology stateing that gentiles had to be become Jews "in order to be saved". That was not a doctrine in OT or NT and in fact was simply "made up stuff".

I agree.
The Jew's unkeepable Law could save nobody.

We can't make every day Sabbath following God's Word in Ex 20:8-11 where we are told to work 6 days and rest the 7th day ... to the point of no secular work Is 58:13 -- since even the NT says that he who does not work should not eat.

Sooo...becoming a Jew is still preferable ?
I disagree.

 

[BobRyan]

Because the application of His blood is how we are now sanctified, made clean.

God says in Heb 10 that animal blood never forgave anyone of anything - it was always Christ.
Rom 4 God says He "counts those things that are not as though they are" because He is not limited by time. He calls Abraham a "father of many nations" when as yet he had no children.

Nope, But would Tim have been allowed into the Jewish synagogues to preach if he had not been circumcised ?

gentiles are in Jewish synagogues in all of the book of Acts - see Acts 13, 17, 18 etc.

(Something I have often wondered is, why did God grant the Gentiles such liberty, but not the Jews too ?

Rom 3 says that the Jews had a great advantage over gentiles see vs 1-4.
In the OT the Jews are the evangelists for all the world
The Jews would be allowed to participate in the Passover - but not gentiles.

There were a lot of perks - to the role of being the worlds evangelists under God's nation-church model

I found that the same liberty is available to anyone who will trust in Jesus for their salvation,

that was always the case.
Rom 2:11 God is not partial

"God so loved the world" is PRE-CROSS teaching in John 3.

When Noah steps off the boat -- it is "all the world" that are the people of God.
When Adam and Eve leave Eden - it is all the world that are the people of God.

instead of trusting the Law of Moses.)

The new testament calls it "The Word of God" the "Commandments of God" - so does Jesus in Mark 7.

2 Tim 3:15-16 says ALL scripture is given by God -- it is not the best efforts of humans - it is the "Word of God" see 2 Peter 1.

Sooo...becoming a Jew is still preferable ?

1 Cor 8 Paul says the Jews had the advantage since they did not come from paganism and have to suffer with pagan myths.
Rom 3:1-4 also says the Jews had the advantage - at least for a while.

But today gentiles come from Christian families.

But Eph 2 says it no longer matters - since both are Christian at some point.

 

[Hoping2]

BobRyan said:

Matt 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory - before the cross.


Matt 17:
Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

Luke 9:28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him.

Because as Gal 1:6-9 says - there is only ONE Gospel - OT and NT
Gal 3:8 that one Gospel was "preached to Abraham"

This was the "good news" that Abe believed, and for which, he was counted righteous..."And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:4-6)

That New Covenant - is OLD TESTAMENT Jer 31:31-34 and is unchanged in the New Testament -- see Heb 8.

The NT is only mentioned, presaged, in the OT.
In your own citing, Jer. 31 this is written..."3 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
A new covenant !

Saved by grace through faith -- that is it - no other gospel.

That is some 'good news' alright, but not what Paul says in 1 Cor 15..."Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor 15:1-4)

 

[Hoping2]

God says in Heb 10 that animal blood never forgave anyone of anything - it was always Christ.
Rom 4 God says He "counts those things that are not as though they are" because He is not limited by time. He calls Abraham a "father of many nations" when as yet he had no children.

That is right.

gentiles are in Jewish synagogues in all of the book of Acts - see Acts 13, 17, 18 etc.

"In" is different than "teaching a new testimony".

Rom 3 says that the Jews had a great advantage over gentiles see vs 1-4.
In the OT the Jews are the evangelists for all the world
The Jews would be allowed to participate in the Passover - but not gentiles.
There were a lot of perks - to the role of being the worlds evangelists under God's nation-church model

Thankfully, now that "wall of separation" has been toppled !
It is written..."Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" (Eph 2:15-16)
Reconciliation, "without the law of commandments contained in ordinances" .

that was always the case.
Rom 2:11 God is not partial

Jesus was not available as an advocate, until the Word put on flesh, and died for our sins.
It was not always the case.

"God so loved the world" is PRE-CROSS teaching in John 3.

What Jesus did for that world wouldn't be accomplished till well after John 3.

When Noah steps off the boat -- it is "all the world" that are the people of God.
When Adam and Eve leave Eden - it is all the world that are the people of God.

Noah had no Law, and would be shown in the future to have been accepted by God.
Why should we go back to any Law now ?

The new testament calls it "The Word of God" the "Commandments of God" - so does Jesus in Mark 7.
2 Tim 3:15-16 says ALL scripture is given by God -- it is not the best efforts of humans - it is the "Word of God" see 2 Peter 1.

I don't know where you are going with that...

1 Cor 8 Paul says the Jews had the advantage since they did not come from paganism and have to suffer with pagan myths.
Rom 3:1-4 also says the Jews had the advantage - at least for a while.

Yes, for a little while.
Then something far better came along !

But today gentiles come from Christian families.

Not necessarily.
Some come from other religions as well.

But Eph 2 says it no longer matters - since both are Christian at some point.

They can be Christians when they quit trying to be justified by the Law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It is written..."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Rom 7:4)
And..."For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (Gal 2:19)
Having been freed from the Law, I can now live unto God.

Well I wish you well with that interpretation of Paul's writings. Because if you keep reading just a few more verses you will see that Paul says its sin when we break God's law and the law is holy, just and good. If we are to be holy every day sinning and breaking God's law which Paul said is dishonoring God Rom 2:23 and being an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8 is not the answer. I can see why how we interpret Paul's writing when they are plucked out of context can be a salvation issue 2 Peter 3:16

Is Paul teaching how to be lost?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Rev 22:15 But outside (the gates of heaven) are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Of course not, but if we isolate his Text out of its context and skip all the other verses that gives context, I see why we are told its a salvation issue. It's why I always advocate to reconcile Paul teachings to Jesus and not Jesus to Paul. Misinterpreting Paul and not following what Jesus taught and lived can be a huge issue when we stand before Jesus. 2 Cor 5:10

Jesus said:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[Leaf473]

Colossians tells us to do everything in the name of the Lord

How does a person buy groceries in the name of the Lord?

 

[BobRyan]

This was the "good news" that Abe believed, and for which, he was counted righteous..."And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:4-6)

1 Pet 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Heb 4:1-2 "the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also"

The NT is only mentioned, presaged, in the OT.

on the contrary it is stated exactly the same way in OT as in NT. Verbatim the same.

Peter tells gentiles that OT saints were preaching salvation through faith in Jesus' name
Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

 

[Hoping2]

Well I wish you well with that interpretation of Paul's writings. Because if you keep reading just a few more verses you will see that Paul says its sin when we break God's law and the law is holy, just and good. If we are to be holy every day sinning and breaking God's law which Paul said is dishonoring God Rom 2:23 and being an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8 is not the answer. I can see why how we interpret Paul's writing when they are plucked out of context can be a salvation issue 2 Peter 3:16

Is Paul teaching how to be lost?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Rev 22:15 But outside (the gates of heaven) are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Of course not, but if we isolate his Text out of its context and skip all the other verses that gives context, I see why we are told its a salvation issue. It's why I always advocate to reconcile Paul teachings to Jesus and not Jesus to Paul. Misinterpreting Paul and not following what Jesus taught and lived can be a huge issue when we stand before Jesus. 2 Cor 5:10

Jesus said:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Do you know who the Law is for ?
Paul wrote..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)
Do you consider still yourself unrighteous ? A worker of iniquity ?
Even after having repented of sin and washed by the blood of Christ from past sin ?
That is who the Law is for.

 

[Hoping2]

1 Pet 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Heb 4:1-2 "the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also"

on the contrary it is stated exactly the same way in OT as in NT. Verbatim the same.

What you cite, 'verbatim', were presages of what was to come.
Believing those impending events would occur, is what will save Abe, the prophets, and others too..
The OT "gospel" was of what was to come.
The NT "gospel, is of what has already happened.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do you know who the Law is for ?
Paul wrote..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)
Do you consider still yourself unrighteous ? A worker of iniquity ?
Even after having repented of sin and washed by the blood of Christ from past sin ?
That is who the Law is for.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We do not deem ourselves righteous, God decides that. And if we are made righteous by Him, we would be obeying God's law Rom 6:16, not being an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8

 

[Hoping2]

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

That generality was shown to be false by Jesus Christ.
Paul said it to make the Law keeping Jews see that they were no better than the Gentiles.
The Law makes nobody perfect.

We do not deem ourselves righteous, God does. And if we are made righteous by Him, we would be obeying God's law, not being an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8

Amen to that.
All those who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength...and their neighbors as themselves, will be found righteous on the day of judgement.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That generality was shown to be false by Jesus Christ.
Paul said it to make the Law keeping Jews see that they were no better than the Gentiles.
The Law makes nobody perfect.

The law just reveals sin Rom 7:7 Rom 3:20 so we are not depending on our version of righteousness, but instead on God's Psa 119:172 which is everlasting Psa 119:142. The law shows us our sin and shows us our true condition so we can seek God's help in overcoming. If we don't allow God's law to do this, we will end up covering our sins Pro 28:13 which is not a good position to be in when Jesus comes Mat 7:23 Rev 22:15

 

[Hoping2]

The law just reveals sin Rom 7:7 Rom 3:20 so we are not depending on our version of righteousness, but instead on God's Psa 119:172 which is everlasting Psa 119:142. The law shows us our sin and shows us our true condition so we can seek God's help in overcoming. If we don't allow God's law to do this, we will end up covering our sins Pro 28:13 which is not a good position to be in when Jesus comes Mat 7:23 Rev 22:15

I sure am glad to be dead to the Law, and alive unto God.
Having crucified the "flesh", with the affections and lusts; (Gal 5:24), I am now "of Christ".

 

[BobRyan]

I am glad the Law of God is written in my heart under the Jer 31 New Covenant quoted in Heb 8.
instead of being deleted.

"the Saints - KEEP the Commandments of God AND Their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 --
where "the fIrst commandment with a promise - is Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2
Jesus said "if you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
Paul says in Heb 8 that JESUS was the one speaking at Sinai.

So then... it is still "sin" to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 - as one of God's Commandments reminds us.

 

[BobRyan]

I sure am glad to be dead to the Law, and alive unto God.

Dead to the condemnation of the Law - that is rightly given to those who "take god's name in vain" does not mean "it is now ok to take God's name in vain"

 

[Hoping2]

Dead to the condemnation of the Law

No, as that is not what was written.
If one breaks the Law, they are still under the Law.

that is rightly given to those who "take god's name in vain" does not mean "it is now ok to take God's name in vain"

I agree.
Being dead to the Law means one is one with Christ: in Whom is no sin.

 

[fhansen]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)​

These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.

Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite? The most obvious plausible answer is that they know it but are supressing the truth. There may be other answers, but I can't think of any.

What it really means is that a man cannot become just by mere reliance on or observance of the Law. There’s only one way to do that: “Apart from Me you can do nothing”, John 15:5 This is why the central theme of the new covenant is reconciliation and union with God, the source and wellspring of true goodness, of the love that fulfills the Law to put it best. God, IOW, must put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts, Jer 31:33. Faith is a turning to that God. The last thing that the gospel proclaims is some sort of reprieve from the necessity of being righteous, but is, in fact, the true means to that very righteousness. Augustine had this to say in “On the Spirit and the Letter”:

"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (De Spiritu et Littera)

By that he means that the law is ultimately meant to cause dejection, disappointment in ourselves, at our inability to overcome sin and be holy, and so convict us of that sin as you pointed out. This is what it did for me, in fact, and that, in turn, made me open to grace, to the life of God, to Christ who promises to send the Holy Spirit who can accomplish in me what I could never accomplish on my own, apart from Him. That’s what man needs to know for himself-that Adam was wrong in effectively dismissing his need for God. The new covenant is all about restoring man's vital communion with God, a relationship that all men were made for.

We're dead to the condemnation of the law because we can now meet its righteous requirements, apart from the law, Rom 3:21-22, Rom 8:1-4

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

What it really means is that a man cannot become just by mere reliance on or observance of the Law. There’s only one way to do that: “Apart from Me you can do nothing”, John 15:5 This is why the central theme of the new covenant is reconciliation and union with God, the source and wellspring of true goodness, of the love that fulfills the Law to put it best. God, IOW, must put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts, Jer 31:33. Faith is a turning to that God. The last thing that the gospel proclaims is some sort of reprieve from the necessity of being righteous, but is, in fact, the true means to that very righteousness. Augustine had this to say in “On the Spirit and the Letter”:

"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (De Spiritu et Littera)

By that he means that the law is ultimately meant to cause dejection, disappointment in ourselves, at our inability to overcome sin and be holy, and so convict us of that sin as you pointed out. This is what it did for me, in fact, and that, in turn, made me open to grace, to the life of God, to Christ who promises to send the Holy Spirit who can accomplish in me what I could never accomplish on my own, apart from Him. That’s what man needs to know for himself-that Adam was wrong in effectively dismissing his need for God. The new covenant is all about restoring man's vital communion with God, a relationship that all men were made for.

We're dead to the condemnation of the law because we can now meet its righteous requirements, apart from the law, Rom 3:21-22, Rom 8:1-4

I know that people can look at the law and its requiremnts for righteousness and conclude that their partial obedience fulfills its requirements. I just don't think it's a good long-term strategy.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I know that people can look at the law and its requiremnts for righteousness and conclude that their partial obedience fulfills its requirements. I just don't think it's a good long-term strategy.

All the law does is show us our sins Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and so we are not depending on our righteousness (right doing) but on God's righteousness Psa 119:172 which is everlasting Psa 119:142

1 John 3:Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Why would one think if Christ is abiding in us that would lead us to worship others gods, or vain His holy name, or profane Him by breaking His holy Sabbath day, or stealing from our neighbors or lying to them or murdering them. I will never understand those who claim to be in Christ would be arguing against obeying God's holy law Rom 8:7-8, that is holy, righteous and good Rom 7:12 that someone how abiding in Christ- His righteousness reveals bad works instead of good works.

Joh 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Joh 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Joh 15:9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.