Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus had a different understanding of what "following the Law" meant, than either his pharisaical interlocutors, or some modern moralists or legalists would be able to comprehend. That's why he taught in parables.

Do you believe His different understand of following the law meant we can now worship other gods, or murder or steal or break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19 just curious if this is what you believe Jesus taught and your definition of legalist .

 

[ralliann]

Why would Jesus spend His whole ministry preaching the law and then do away with it? It makes no sense.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.​

Because he was speaking to those judged by the law.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

The issue with these kinds of discussions is.....
What does the law say?

Jew's were subject to keep law, and under judgment by law that uncircumcised Gentiles were not!
The Gospels are a record of the Gospel to the Jew's

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Because he was speaking to those judged by the law.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

The issue with these kinds of discussions is.....
What does the law say?

Jew's were subject to keep law, and under judgment by law that uncircumcised Gentiles were not!
The Gospels are a record of the Gospel to the Jew's

So Gentiles can worship other gods and murder and covet and steal or break the least of these commandments despite Jesus saying "whoever" breaks the least of these commandments will be least in heaven Mat 5:19 and according to the next verse means won't be there Mat 5:20 I think you have some misunderstandings of God's law because in His covenant- which has God's laws now written in the heart and mind Heb 8:10 if we are part of the promise, we are grafted in through faith Gal 3:26-28 and have His laws in our hearts.

 

[Clare73]

All the laws that were a prescription for sin ended at the Cross Heb 10:1-22 Heb 9:10-15 and we have a better way to receive forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ when we confess to Him and repent and turn from sin. 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13

The description of sin, the Ten Commandments is still sin in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 and no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30 Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 but if we refuse to allow God to be God to define what sin is or save us from our sins, its not a good position to be in Rom 8:7-8 once Jesus returns Mat 7:21-23

I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the new covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue, "do no harm."

 

[FireDragon76]

I have no idea what twists and turns this thread has taken, so forgive my ignorance, but by "fulfilling" the law I believe that Jesus meant taking it from a series of legalistic do's and don'ts to a heart-guided righteousness that transcends the do's and don'ts and is guided by higher principles of love and compassion. The Ten Commandments and 600+ other OT commands are not irrelevant, but they aren't righteousness in all its fullness. "Fulfill" does not mean "bring an end to." In this context, it means something more like "bring to its fullness." The law and the prophets were harbingers of the righteousness Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about is not less demanding than the law, but far more demanding.

Yes, precisely. Which is why he scandalized people by healing on the Sabbath, eating with sinners (and tax collectors), and so forth. Jesus was more interested in restoring relationship than conforming to "correct" religious sensibilities, which are often rooted in lesser or base human instincts (like fear or manipulation).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, precisely. Which is why he scandalized people by healing on the Sabbath, eating with sinners (and tax collectors), and so forth. Jesus was more interested in restoring relationship than conforming to religious sensibilities.

It was never a sin to heal on the Sabbath, He said it was lawful , but that doesn't mean we can't do things that are unlawful on His holy Sabbath day.

He was correctly the Pharisees adding to God's commandments and making it a burden when that was never the intent

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

But Jesus never advocated not to keep God's commandments- He actually condemned the opposite Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:17-30 Mat 19:17-19 Etc.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you believe His different understand of following the law meant we can now worship other gods, or murder or steal or break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19 just curious if this is what you believe Jesus taught and your definition of legalist .

Jesus himself often expands the context of those laws and plays with religious concepts in ways that are unexpected and don't always give us that kind of clarity. Jesus is pointing to living by a law of love that isn't necessarily safe or respectable. Paul calls Jesus' way "foolishness" in fact.

 

[FireDragon76]

It was never a sin to heal on the Sabbath, He said it was lawful , but that doesn't mean we can't do things that are unlawful on His holy Sabbath day.

He was correctly the Pharisees adding to God's commandments and making it a burden when that was never the intent

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

But Jesus never advocated not to keep God's commandments- He actually condemned the opposite Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:17-30 Mat 19:17-19 Etc.

In Jesus day it was a widespread opinion that in fact it was unlawful to heal on the sabbath.

Jesus also did things like take grain from a field, or take a donkey without asking for permissions. He also told a young man, perhaps it would be better to "let the dead bury their own dead", which even in a Jewish context is quite shocking and scandalous.

Seeing Jesus as "morally upright" in the traditional sense is missing the mark in a serious way, but it's due to a certain religious vision that wants to find safety and control in religious piety. Jesus doesn't sanction any of that. In fact he implies in numerous places that the righteous deserve no more from God than the sinner, which again, would be scandalous to the kind of performative religiosity of his day, or even in this contemporary moment among many American Christians.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus himself often expands the context of those laws and plays with religious concepts in ways that are unexpected and don't always give us that kind of clarity. Jesus is pointing to living by a law of love that isn't necessarily safe or respectable. Paul calls Jesus' way "foolishness" in fact.

I thought Jesus was very clear about His intent on His law Isa 42:21 and not something He came to destroy but to fill-full- showing us by example how to keep. Telling us that sin will separate us from God Isa 59:2 and breaking the commandments will do so as He demonstrated using two from the Ten Commandments as principles and examples which apply to them all. Not only should we not break these commandments- we should not even have thoughts that lead up to breaking them and in doing so one is sinning and will be in fear of Judgement Mat 5:17-30

In Jesus day it was a widespread opinion that in fact it was unlawful to heal on the sabbath.

Not according to Jesus Mat 12:12

The Pharisees were adding to God's commandments something we were warned not to do Deut 4:2 this is what Jesus was constantly correcting

Jesus also did things like take grain from a field, or take a donkey without asking for permissions. He also told a young man, perhaps it would be better to "let the dead bury their own dead", which even in a Jewish context is quite shocking and scandalous.

You seem to be taking the side of the Pharisees over the teachings of Jesus. It was never a sin to eat on the Sabbath even in the OT. The disciples were hungry walking with Jesus plucking the heads of grain and eating, which is no different than picking a piece of fruit from our garden and eating, not a sin. Why Jesus didn't condemn His disciples Mat 12:7 not because He bended the rules for Himself and the disciples but condemned the Pharisees for breaking the same commandments Mat 15:3-14 that would make Jesus a hypocrite and these were some of the same arguments that put Him on the Cross despite His own Testimony saying He never sinned John 8:46-47

Seeing Jesus as "morally upright" in the traditional sense is missing the mark in a serious way,

Wow, sorry I have no words- Jesus was righteous 2 Cor 5:21 1 Corinthians 1:30 (morally right) in everything He did otherwise had He failed and had He just sinned a little, all salvation would be lost for all of humanity forever. Thankfully that's not what happened 1 Peter 2:21-23, Heb 4:15 1 John 2:6

but it's due to a certain religious vision that wants to find safety and control in religious piety. Jesus doesn't sanction any of that. In fact he implies in numerous places that the righteous deserve no more from God than the sinner, which again, would be scandalous to the kind of performative religiosity of his day, or even in this contemporary moment among many American Christians.

I would need to see the verse you are referring to so we can examine the context

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the new covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue, "do no harm."

I don't necessarily see the Ten Commandments being obsolete, merely relativized. I don't see Jesus as being antimonian in the usual sense it is understood, nor do I think that's the point of the NT's epistles, either. Rules are good, but sometimes some rules are more important than others, and sometimes rules even have to be broken. That is how (spiritually) mature and healthy people deal with reality. They don't put their ideals ahead of concrete human relationships and growth.

 

[FireDragon76]

I thought Jesus was very clear about His intent on His law Isa 42:21 and not something He came to destroy but to fill-full- showing us by example how to keep. Telling us that sin will separate us from God Isa 59:2 and breaking the commandments will do so as He demonstrated using two from the Ten Commandments as principles and examples which apply to them all. Not only should we not break these commandments- we should not even have thoughts that lead up to breaking them and in doing so one is sinning and will be in fear of Judgement Mat 5:17-30

Not according to Jesus Mat 12:12

The Pharisees were adding to God's commandments something we were warned not to do Deut 4:2 this is what Jesus was constantly correcting

You seem to be taking the side of the Pharisees over the teachings of Jesus. It was never a sin to eat on the Sabbath even in the OT. The disciples were hungry walking with Jesus plucking the heads of grain and eating, which is no different than picking a piece of fruit from our garden and eating, not a sin. Why Jesus didn't condemn His disciples Mat 12:7 not because He bended the rules for Himself and the disciples but condemned the Pharisees for breaking the same commandments Mat 15:3-14 that would make Jesus a hypocrite and these were some of the same arguments that put Him on the Cross despite His own Testimony saying He never sinned John 8:46-47

Wow, sorry I have no words- Jesus was righteous 2 Cor 5:21 1 Corinthians 1:30 (morally right) in everything He did otherwise had He failed and just sinned a little all salvation would be lost for all of humanity. Thankfully that's not what happened 1 Peter 2:21-23, Heb 4:15 1 John 2:6

I would need to see the verse you are referring to so we can examine the context

Luke 17:1-10 The righteous are unprofitable to God, since they only give to God what is due.
Matthew 20:1-16 Parable of the Vineyard Workers. Everybody gets paid the same, though some do less than others.
Mark 4:1-20 Parable of the sower. God's grace is extravagant and wasteful.

All of this points away from the kind of perfectionistic or legalistic, performative religion you seem to be appealing to.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Luke 17:1-10 The righteous are unprofitable to God, since they only give to God what is due.
Matthew 20:1-16 Parable of the Vineyard Workers. Everybody gets paid the same, though some do less than others.
Mark 4:1-20 Parable of the sower. God's grace is extravagant and wasteful.

All of this points away from the kind of perfectionistic or legalistic, performative religion you seem to be appealing to.

I do not believe you are interpreting these correctly, they are not teaching to not obey God's commandments.

For example Jesus explained the parable of the sower.

The sower is Jesus and the seed is the Word of God. Jesus even interpreted this for us as to what it means.

Mat 13:18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Why we are called to be doers of His word, not just hearers James 1:22-24 Blessed are those who Do His commandments Rev 22:14

Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and said which ones for eternal life quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Mat 19:17-19 Is God being legalistic by asking to only worship Him? Or not vain His holy name? Or not to bow to idols? Or break His holy Sabbath day, but instead rest with Him so He can bless and sanctify us? Is this what you mean by being legalistic?

 

[ralliann]

So Gentiles can worship other gods and murder and covet and steal or break the least of these commandments despite Jesus saying "whoever" breaks the least of these commandments will be least in heaven Mat 5:19 and according to the next verse means won't be there Mat 5:20 I think you have some misunderstandings of God's law because in His covenant- which has God's laws now written in the heart and mind Heb 8:10 if we are part of the promise, we are grafted in through faith Gal 3:26-28 and have His laws in our hearts.

This is so off course to my post. Let me just repeat, What does the law say?
The law as some read it, would consider many of these these issues belonging to law in place BEFORE MOSES. So rather than Gentiles obeying JEWISH LAW, The context becomes JEWISH LAW RETAINED LAW among Gentiles. You don't need to agree, just acknowledge that context in the posts of others.
I would like to provide an example of what I am talking about... (again you do not need to agree) Discussion on this point is for another thread.
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

Clearly, Israelites here were subject to the same prohibitions that the Nations were judged by. NOT VICE VERSA.
Go into any synagogue and ask about law distinct to Gentiles. They are called Noachide today. Sons of Noah. God fearers in the days of Christ.

 

[daq]

Those on the forum who hold that we must observe the old covenant Israelite Sabbath try to make everyone else believe Jesus really didn't do what He said He was going to do. He said He came to FULFILL the Law and the prophets. They have to use some other meaning of fulfill.

That's a serious misunderstanding of this word, (πληρόω), and its usage in the scripture. In fact Mat 5:17 is even mentioned at the bottom of the Thayer's entry for πληρόω below, and it does not mean what you say it does even in that context, but you would need to read the whole entry and see for yourself what this word most generally means and why your belief about (interpretation of) this word is simply based in the antinomian bias that has been spread so far and wide by so many false teachers, pastors, expositors, and online make-believe Bible scholars. Being in the majority doesn't make you right but it can very well mean you are on the wide road that leads to a dead end. The scripture evidence is overwhelming, which is the very reason lexicons use so many scriptures in support of the information they provide: your argument isn't against forum members but against the scripture.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4137: πληρόω

πληρόω πληρῶ (infinitive πληροῦν Luke 9:31, see WH's Appendix, p. 166); imperfect 3 person singular ἐπλήρου; future πληρώσω; 1 aorist ἐπλήρωσα; perfect πεπλήρωκα; passive, present πληροῦμαι; imperfect ἐπληρουμην; perfect πεπλήρωμαι; 1 aorist ἐπληρώθην; 1 future πληρωθήσομαι; future middle πληρώσομαι (once, Revelation 6:11 Rec.); (from ΠΛηΡΟΣ equivalent to πλήρης); from Aeschylus and Herodotus down; the Sept. for מָלֵא;
1. to make full, to fill, to fill up: τήν σαγηνην, passive, Matthew 13:48; equivalent to "to fill to the full, πᾶσαν χρείαν, Philippians 4:19; to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally: πεπλήρωμαι, I abound, I am liberally supplied, namely, with what is necessary for subsistence, Philippians 4:18; Hebraistically, with the accusative of the thing in which one abounds (cf. Buttmann, § 134, 7; Winer's Grammar, § 32, 5): of spiritual possessions, Philippians 1:11 (where Rec. has καρπῶν); Colossians 1:9, (ἐνέπλησα αὐτόν πνεῦμα σοφίας, Exodus 31:3; Exodus 35:31); equivalent to to flood, ἡ οἰκία ἐπληρώθη (Tr marginal reading ἐπλήσθη) ἐκ τῆς ὀσμῆς, John 12:3 (see ἐκ, II. 5); ἦχος ἐπλήρωσε τόν οἶκον, Acts 2:2; with a genitive of the thing, τήν Ἱερουσαλήμ τῆς διδαχῆς, Acts 5:28 (Libanius, epistles 721 πάσας — i. e. πόλεις — ἐνέπλησας τῶν ὑπέρ ἡμῶν λόγων; Justin, hist. 11, 7 Phrygiam religionibus implevit); τινα, equivalent to to fill, diffuse throughout one's soul: with a genitive of the thing, Luke 2:40 R G L text T Tr marginal reading (see below); Acts 2:28; passive, Acts 13:52; Romans 15:13 (where L marginal reading πληροφορέω, which see in c.), 14; 2 Timothy 1:4; with a dative of the thing (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 31, 7), passive (Luke 2:40 L marginal reading Tr text WH); Romans 1:29; 2 Corinthians 7:4; followed by ἐν with a dative of the instrument: ἐν πνεύματι, Ephesians 5:18; ἐν παντί θελήματι Θεοῦ, with everything which God wills (used of those who will nothing but what God wills), Colossians 4:12 R G (but see πληροφορέω, c.); πληροῦν τήν καρδίαν τίνος, to pervade, take possession of, one's heart, John 16:6; Acts 5:3; Christians are said πληροῦσθαι, simply, as those who are pervaded (i. e. richly furnished) with the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit: ἐν αὐτῷ, rooted as it were in Christ, i. e. by virtue of the intimate relationship entered into with him, Colossians 2:10 (cf. ἐν, I. 6 b.); εἰς πᾶν τό πλήρωμα τοῦ Θεοῦ (see πλήρωμα, 1), Ephesians 3:19 (not WH marginal reading); Christ, exalted to share in the divine administration, is said πληροῦν τά πάντα, to fill (pervade) the universe with his presence, power, activity, Ephesians 4:10; also πληροῦσθαι (middle for himself, i. e. to execute his counsels (cf. Winers Grammar, 258 (242); Buttmann, § 134, 7)) τά πάντα ἐν πᾶσιν, all things in all places, Ephesians 1:23 (μή οὐχί τόν οὐρανόν καί τήν γῆν ἐγώ πληρῶ, λέγει κύριος, Jeremiah 23:24; Grimm, Exeget. Hdbch. on Wis. 1:7, p. 55, cites examples from Philo and others; ((but ἐν πᾶσιν here is variously understood; see πᾶς, II. 2 b. δ. αα. and the commentaries))).

2. to render full, i. e. to complete;

a. properly, to fill up to the top: πᾶσαν φάραγγα, Luke 3:5; so that nothing shall be lacking to full measure, fill to the brim, μέτρον (which see, 1 a.), Matthew 23:32.

b. to perfect, consummate; α. a number: ἕως πληρωθῶσι καί οἱ σύνδουλοι, until the number of their comrades also shall have been made complete, Revelation 6:11 L WH text,cf. Düsterdieck at the passage (see γ. below). by a Hebraism (see πίμπλημι, at the end) time is said πληροῦσθαι, πεπληρωμένος, either when a period of time that was to elapse has passed, or when a definite time is at hand: Mark 1:15; Luke 21:24; John 7:8; Acts 7:23, 30; Acts 9:23; Acts 24:27 (Genesis 25:24; Genesis 29:21; Leviticus 8:33; Leviticus 12:4; Leviticus 25:30; Numbers 6:5; Josephus, Antiquities 4, 4, 6; 6, 4, 1; πληροῦν τόν τέλεον ἐνιαυτόν, Plato, Tim., p. 39d.; τούς χρόνους, legg. 9, p. 866a.). β. to make complete in every particular; to render perfect: πᾶσαν εὐδοκίαν κ.τ.λ. 2 Thessalonians 1:11; τήν χαράν, Philippians 2:2; passive, John 3:29; John 15:11; John 16:24; John 17:13; 1 John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; τά ἔργα, passive, Revelation 3:2; τήν ὑπακοήν, to cause all to obey, passive, 2 Corinthians 10:6; τό πάσχα, Luke 22:16 (Jesus speaks here allegorically: until perfect deliverance and blessedness be celebrated in the heavenly state). γ. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking): πάντα τά ῤήματα, Luke 7:1; τήν διακονίαν, Acts 12:25; Colossians 4:17; τό ἔργον, Acts 14:26; τόν δρόμον, Acts 13:25; namely, τόν δρόμον, Revelation 6:11 according to the reading πληρωσωσι (G T Tr WH marginal reading) or πληρωσονται (Rec.) (see α. above); ὡς ἐπληρώθη ταῦτα, when these things were ended, Acts 19:21. Here belongs also πληροῦν τό εὐαγγέλιον, to cause to be everywhere known, acknowledged, embraced (A. V. I have fully preached), Romans 15:19; in the same sense τόν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ, Colossians 1:25.

c. to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize; α. of matters of duty, to perform, execute: τόν νόμον, Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14; τό δικαίωμα τοῦ νόμου, passive, ἐν ἡμῖν, among us, Romans 8:4; πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην, Matthew 3:15 (εὐσέβειαν, 4 Macc. 12:15); τήν ἔξοδον (as something appointed and prescribed by God), Luke 9:31. β. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish; so in the phrases ἵνα or ὅπως πληρωθῇ ἡ γραφή, τό ῤηθέν, etc. (el. Knapp, Seripta var. Arg., p. 533f): Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15, 17, 23; Matthew 4:14; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:17; Matthew 13:35; Matthew 21:4; Matthew 26:54, 56; Matthew 27:9, 35 Rec.; Mark 14:49; Mark 15:28 (which verse G T WH omits; but Tr brackets it); Luke 1:20; Luke 4:21; Luke 21:22 Rec.; ; John 12:38; John 13:18; John 15:25; John 17:12; John 18:9, 32; John 19:24, 36; Acts 1:16; Acts 3:18; Acts 13:27; James 2:23 (1 Kings 2:27; 2 Chronicles 36:22). γ. universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f (Compare: ἀναπληρόω, ἀνταναπληρόω, προσαναπληρόω, ἐκπληρόω, συμπληρόω.)

Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- To fill, to make full, to complete, to fulfill

biblehub.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is so off course to my post. Let me just repeat, What does the law say?

I'm not sure how it was off course you were talking about those who are being judged by the law and Jesus said "whoever" were to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments would be sin and in fear of judgement. Mat 5:19-30

There are lots of laws, not just one law, this is probably the confusion.

There is God's law the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Exo 20:6 which is the description of Sin 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30

And the Law of Moses, which had all the sanctuary services and animal sacrifices which was the OT prescription for sin until the Seed.

The law as some read it, would consider many of these these issues belonging to law in place BEFORE MOSES. So rather than Gentiles obeying JEWISH LAW, The context becomes JEWISH LAW RETAINED LAW among Gentiles. You don't need to agree, just acknowledge that context in the posts of others.
I would like to provide an example of what I am talking about... (again you do not need to agree) Discussion on this point is for another thread.
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

Clearly, Israelites here were subject to the same prohibitions that the Nations were judged by. NOT VICE VERSA.
Go into any synagogue and ask about law distinct to Gentiles. They are called Noachide today. Sons of Noah. God fearers in the days of Christ.

I am not interested in Jewish tradition, I am interested in what the God of the Bible said. All of God's people keep God's commandments Rev 14:12 from the beginning of time, because sin started at the very beginning as did God's Law Exo 20:11 where there is no law there is no sin Rom 4:15 and sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 God wrote and God spoke it and it is His Testimony and will for mankind Exo 31:18 Psa 40:8 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 14:12, Rev 22:14. Its not just the Jews that were to keep the Ten Commandments.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

The Hebrew word here means Adam - He was not Jewish. Its the same Hebrew Word Jesus used to say who the Sabbath was made for- man. Mark 2:27

No coincidence this is one of the last verses of the Bible before the revelation of Jesus Christ

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the new covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue, "do no harm."

I have never heard of the OT Decalogue's meaning is "do no harm" until about three weeks ago here at CF. Please cite chapter and verse for this extraordinary new teaching. "Do no harm" is Buddhism.

 

[ralliann]

That's a serious misunderstanding of this word, (πληρόω), and its usage in the scripture. In fact Mat 5:17 is even mentioned at the bottom of the Thayer's entry for πληρόω below, and it does not mean what you say it does even in that context, but you would need to read the whole entry and see for yourself what this word most generally means and why your belief about (interpretation of) this word is simply based in the antinomian bias that has been spread so far and wide by so many false teachers, pastors, expositors, and online make-believe Bible scholars. Being in the majority doesn't make you right but it can very well mean you are on the wide road that leads to a dead end. The scripture evidence is overwhelming, which is the very reason lexicons use so many scriptures in support of the information they provide: your argument isn't against forum members but against the scripture.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4137: πληρόω

πληρόω πληρῶ (infinitive πληροῦν Luke 9:31, see WH's Appendix, p. 166); imperfect 3 person singular ἐπλήρου; future πληρώσω; 1 aorist ἐπλήρωσα; perfect πεπλήρωκα; passive, present πληροῦμαι; imperfect ἐπληρουμην; perfect πεπλήρωμαι; 1 aorist ἐπληρώθην; 1 future πληρωθήσομαι; future middle πληρώσομαι (once, Revelation 6:11 Rec.); (from ΠΛηΡΟΣ equivalent to πλήρης); from Aeschylus and Herodotus down; the Sept. for מָלֵא;
1. to make full, to fill, to fill up: τήν σαγηνην, passive, Matthew 13:48; equivalent to "to fill to the full, πᾶσαν χρείαν, Philippians 4:19; to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally: πεπλήρωμαι, I abound, I am liberally supplied, namely, with what is necessary for subsistence, Philippians 4:18; Hebraistically, with the accusative of the thing in which one abounds (cf. Buttmann, § 134, 7; Winer's Grammar, § 32, 5): of spiritual possessions, Philippians 1:11 (where Rec. has καρπῶν); Colossians 1:9, (ἐνέπλησα αὐτόν πνεῦμα σοφίας, Exodus 31:3; Exodus 35:31); equivalent to to flood, ἡ οἰκία ἐπληρώθη (Tr marginal reading ἐπλήσθη) ἐκ τῆς ὀσμῆς, John 12:3 (see ἐκ, II. 5); ἦχος ἐπλήρωσε τόν οἶκον, Acts 2:2; with a genitive of the thing, τήν Ἱερουσαλήμ τῆς διδαχῆς, Acts 5:28 (Libanius, epistles 721 πάσας — i. e. πόλεις — ἐνέπλησας τῶν ὑπέρ ἡμῶν λόγων; Justin, hist. 11, 7 Phrygiam religionibus implevit); τινα, equivalent to to fill, diffuse throughout one's soul: with a genitive of the thing, Luke 2:40 R G L text T Tr marginal reading (see below); Acts 2:28; passive, Acts 13:52; Romans 15:13 (where L marginal reading πληροφορέω, which see in c.), 14; 2 Timothy 1:4; with a dative of the thing (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 31, 7), passive (Luke 2:40 L marginal reading Tr text WH); Romans 1:29; 2 Corinthians 7:4; followed by ἐν with a dative of the instrument: ἐν πνεύματι, Ephesians 5:18; ἐν παντί θελήματι Θεοῦ, with everything which God wills (used of those who will nothing but what God wills), Colossians 4:12 R G (but see πληροφορέω, c.); πληροῦν τήν καρδίαν τίνος, to pervade, take possession of, one's heart, John 16:6; Acts 5:3; Christians are said πληροῦσθαι, simply, as those who are pervaded (i. e. richly furnished) with the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit: ἐν αὐτῷ, rooted as it were in Christ, i. e. by virtue of the intimate relationship entered into with him, Colossians 2:10 (cf. ἐν, I. 6 b.); εἰς πᾶν τό πλήρωμα τοῦ Θεοῦ (see πλήρωμα, 1), Ephesians 3:19 (not WH marginal reading); Christ, exalted to share in the divine administration, is said πληροῦν τά πάντα, to fill (pervade) the universe with his presence, power, activity, Ephesians 4:10; also πληροῦσθαι (middle for himself, i. e. to execute his counsels (cf. Winers Grammar, 258 (242); Buttmann, § 134, 7)) τά πάντα ἐν πᾶσιν, all things in all places, Ephesians 1:23 (μή οὐχί τόν οὐρανόν καί τήν γῆν ἐγώ πληρῶ, λέγει κύριος, Jeremiah 23:24; Grimm, Exeget. Hdbch. on Wis. 1:7, p. 55, cites examples from Philo and others; ((but ἐν πᾶσιν here is variously understood; see πᾶς, II. 2 b. δ. αα. and the commentaries))).

2. to render full, i. e. to complete;

a. properly, to fill up to the top: πᾶσαν φάραγγα, Luke 3:5; so that nothing shall be lacking to full measure, fill to the brim, μέτρον (which see, 1 a.), Matthew 23:32.

b. to perfect, consummate; α. a number: ἕως πληρωθῶσι καί οἱ σύνδουλοι, until the number of their comrades also shall have been made complete, Revelation 6:11 L WH text,cf. Düsterdieck at the passage (see γ. below). by a Hebraism (see πίμπλημι, at the end) time is said πληροῦσθαι, πεπληρωμένος, either when a period of time that was to elapse has passed, or when a definite time is at hand: Mark 1:15; Luke 21:24; John 7:8; Acts 7:23, 30; Acts 9:23; Acts 24:27 (Genesis 25:24; Genesis 29:21; Leviticus 8:33; Leviticus 12:4; Leviticus 25:30; Numbers 6:5; Josephus, Antiquities 4, 4, 6; 6, 4, 1; πληροῦν τόν τέλεον ἐνιαυτόν, Plato, Tim., p. 39d.; τούς χρόνους, legg. 9, p. 866a.). β. to make complete in every particular; to render perfect: πᾶσαν εὐδοκίαν κ.τ.λ. 2 Thessalonians 1:11; τήν χαράν, Philippians 2:2; passive, John 3:29; John 15:11; John 16:24; John 17:13; 1 John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; τά ἔργα, passive, Revelation 3:2; τήν ὑπακοήν, to cause all to obey, passive, 2 Corinthians 10:6; τό πάσχα, Luke 22:16 (Jesus speaks here allegorically: until perfect deliverance and blessedness be celebrated in the heavenly state). γ. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking): πάντα τά ῤήματα, Luke 7:1; τήν διακονίαν, Acts 12:25; Colossians 4:17; τό ἔργον, Acts 14:26; τόν δρόμον, Acts 13:25; namely, τόν δρόμον, Revelation 6:11 according to the reading πληρωσωσι (G T Tr WH marginal reading) or πληρωσονται (Rec.) (see α. above); ὡς ἐπληρώθη ταῦτα, when these things were ended, Acts 19:21. Here belongs also πληροῦν τό εὐαγγέλιον, to cause to be everywhere known, acknowledged, embraced (A. V. I have fully preached), Romans 15:19; in the same sense τόν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ, Colossians 1:25.

c. to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize; α. of matters of duty, to perform, execute: τόν νόμον, Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14; τό δικαίωμα τοῦ νόμου, passive, ἐν ἡμῖν, among us, Romans 8:4; πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην, Matthew 3:15 (εὐσέβειαν, 4 Macc. 12:15); τήν ἔξοδον (as something appointed and prescribed by God), Luke 9:31. β. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish; so in the phrases ἵνα or ὅπως πληρωθῇ ἡ γραφή, τό ῤηθέν, etc. (el. Knapp, Seripta var. Arg., p. 533f): Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15, 17, 23; Matthew 4:14; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:17; Matthew 13:35; Matthew 21:4; Matthew 26:54, 56; Matthew 27:9, 35 Rec.; Mark 14:49; Mark 15:28 (which verse G T WH omits; but Tr brackets it); Luke 1:20; Luke 4:21; Luke 21:22 Rec.; ; John 12:38; John 13:18; John 15:25; John 17:12; John 18:9, 32; John 19:24, 36; Acts 1:16; Acts 3:18; Acts 13:27; James 2:23 (1 Kings 2:27; 2 Chronicles 36:22). γ. universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f (Compare: ἀναπληρόω, ἀνταναπληρόω, προσαναπληρόω, ἐκπληρόω, συμπληρόω.)

Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- To fill, to make full, to complete, to fulfill

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I think the greater point is.....Your undestanding of TORAH. Did it even exist in the time of Christ?
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

This seat of authority included the office of priesthood and the office of judges....together giving sentence on law. NON sectarian.
As for the various "PERSONAL" sectarian ideas and practices of them as SECTS

He adds their sectarian elements......
"do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."



The Pharisees here are a particular focus as the next verse shows, with a nod to the priesthood.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The finger of the priests in their ministry : Purging, atoneing for sin....
These are only a few verses of the subject of the finger of the priests. There are many, many more throughout the law.

Ex 29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.
Le 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Le 4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.



Dt 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:


Dt 33:8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.


Ex 29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.

Why?

Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

Did not Judaism understand this verse to mean, if the high priest taught error, it caused the error to the people to UNWITTINGLY Sin?
And therefore also related to this?
The death of the high priest atones
Nu 35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
Nu 35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I have never heard of the OT Decalogue's meaning is "do no harm" until about three weeks ago here at CF. Please cite chapter and verse for this extraordinary new teaching. "Do no harm" is Buddhism.

It comes from here....

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

But Paul was not teaching it was obsolete in the slightest. He was quoting the Second Greatest commandment that comes from the Ten Commandments on how to love thy neighbor.

Jesus said the entire Bible hangs on the Greatest Commandments Mat 22:40 not that it was obsolete, so sadly what is being taught is erroneous.

Jesus said there is NO GREATER commandments, including new ones.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The [c]first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [d]This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Jesus was quoting OT when He said this and Deut 6:5 what He is quoting is right after Moses repeated the Ten Commandments before the children entered into their promise land teaching them to diligently keep and teach their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren to keep etc

Just as it is for us

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Clare73]

I have never heard of the OT Decalogue's meaning is "do no harm" until about three weeks ago here at CF. Please cite chapter and verse for this extraordinary new teaching. "Do no harm" is Buddhism.

Thou shalt not
dishhonor parents,
murder,
steal,
commit adultery,
lie about others,
covet another's wife or goods.

That doesn't require love. That's just "do no harm."

The NT is : love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

According to God, love is the foundation of keeping the commandments as He said right in the Ten Commandments

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

In the NT it is still love to keep God's commandments
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
John 15:10 . If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Why Paul said this

Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

If we love God would we worship other gods, vain His holy name, bow to idols or profane Him by breaking His holy Sabbath day- of course not.

If we love our neighbor- would we steal from them, or covet, or murder them or lie to them, of course not.

1 John 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

This should be a basic teaching and sad that it’s not. It just shows how far we have gone from God's Truth Psa 119:151 Mat 24:12 2 Tom 4:3