Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

[Clare73]

I see... You then have a Calvinist position. That is another topic though.

Christ was indeed the only effective sacrifice for anyone.

Actually, I have a Paulist position. . .I am not very well versed in Calvin.

 

[daq]

So, the reason for this thread is to discuss Matt 5:17-18. Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law? We have no qualms about His fulfilling and bringing to a final end the prophecies concerning Him. Why do some hesitate to believe He did the same for the Law?

Here is just one of the many things fulfilled in the Master which was prophesied of him in the Torah.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 KJV
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:17-23 KJV
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Indeed, Deuteronomy 18:15-19 has now been fulfilled: and yet it is fully functional, operational, and contains an imperative commandment which must be observed and upheld. However, true "hearing" according to the scripture, (according to both Isaiah the Prophet and the Master himself who quotes him), is extremely much more than simply hearing with the ears.

Matthew 13:10-15 KJV
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Hearing is not just hearing with the ears; but includes diligently hearing with perception and understanding, and moreover, acting upon that perception and understanding from the scripture word which was spoken or written.

And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

[FredVB]

Actually, I have a Paulist position. . .I am not very well versed in Calvin.

Taking the position that only the elect are saved, something we really have no way of verifying by our experience, is something Calvinists do. The saved are secure, those falling away from Christianity that they claimed for themselves did not actually have repentant faith. Election in the Bible is about believers, who God always knew about, being ordained to being conformed to the image of Christ, without sin, this is not from God selecting who has salvation with their needed faith, while God does know everything already. God's displeasure with others is not a surprise to God but there could not be cause from God to what brings about God's displeasure. It is human response that can.

Fulfillment is with Jesus having done everything he was supposed to do here in this world, he did everything according to the law from God, and those in Jesus Christ will not be under any penalty of God's law, with him bearing it already. It was not to take anyone away from doing what God said to do with commandments for that. Jesus had to explain what those actually involve, and was not going to just remove them right after that! Doing these things in Christ is without penalty or judgment on any of us. So the early Christians were doing all these things, before alternate teachings were interrupting any of them. This was not with anything that had to do with fulfillment. The sacrifices had stopped as they were supposed to, only Christ's atonement counts, it was the only effective way.

 

[Clare73]

Taking the position that only the elect are saved, something we really have no way of verifying by our experience, is something Calvinists do.

Paul is pretty cleaer on that in Ro 8:29-30, Eph 1:4, 2 Tim 1:9.

 

[HBP]

One poster claims Jesus didn't fulfill ALL the Law, but Jesus in Matt 5: 17 said; “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Notice Jesus didn't say some of the laws, like the poster claims, because there is no qualifier in His words. Then Jesus went on to tell us that nothing could be removed from said Law until everything was accomplished. The poster also claims that indeed some of the commands of the Law have been fulfilled and are no longer required to be kept. It appears that the poster has been given the discretion to choose what commands can be disregarded.

To those of us posters that believe Jesus did what He came to do, fulfill all the Law, the poster threatens that unless we abide by the commands of the Law we are in a lawless state. According to him/her we have to keep the commands of the Law with emphasis on the Sabbath command in order to be saved.

So, the reason for this thread is to discuss Matt 5:17-18. Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law? We have no qualms about His fulfilling and bringing to a final end the prophecies concerning Him. Why do some hesitate to believe He did the same for the Law?

I have no idea what twists and turns this thread has taken, so forgive my ignorance, but by "fulfilling" the law I believe that Jesus meant taking it from a series of legalistic do's and don'ts to a heart-guided righteousness that transcends the do's and don'ts and is guided by higher principles of love and compassion. The Ten Commandments and 600+ other OT commands are not irrelevant, but they aren't righteousness in all its fullness. "Fulfill" does not mean "bring an end to." In this context, it means something more like "bring to its fullness." The law and the prophets were harbingers of the righteousness Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about is not less demanding than the law, but far more demanding.

 

[Bob S]

I have no idea what twists and turns this thread has taken, so forgive my ignorance, but by "fulfilling" the law I believe that Jesus meant taking it from a series of legalistic do's and don'ts to a heart-guided righteousness that transcends the do's and don'ts and is guided by higher principles of love and compassion. The Ten Commandments and 600+ other OT commands are not irrelevant, but they aren't righteousness in all its fullness. "Fulfill" does not mean "bring an end to." In this context, it means something more like "bring to its fullness." The law and the prophets were harbingers of the righteousness Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about is not less demanding than the law, but far more demanding.

Hi HBP, welcome to the thread. The fact is that Jesus brought to an end the Levitical sacrificial system. Why then is it so hard to believe Jesus brought to an end all of the laws of the Old Covenant? In 2Cor3:6-11 Paul explicitly tells us that the Ten Commandments were temporary, and the King James version tells us that they were DONE AWAY. What more evidence do we need to know for sure that the word fulfill in Matt 5 means bring to an end? Well, there is more evidence, read Col 2: 16-17, Eph 2: 11-15, Gal 3, where Paul calls the Galatians foolish for believing they had to keep the Law, and Rom 6:14. Why are we not under the Law? Could it be because Jesus brought it to an end?

Those on the forum who hold that we must observe the old covenant Israelite Sabbath try to make everyone else believe Jesus really didn't do what He said He was going to do. He said He came to FULFILL the Law and the prophets. They have to use some other meaning of fulfill.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Is only worshipping God temporary? Is not using God's name in vain, temporary? Is not stealing from our neighbor temporary? or killing our neighbor? Or coveting? Is this what Paul is teaching?

Of course not.

God's law, the Ten Commandments, the words of the covenant Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 went from tables of stone to tablets of the heart, this is what Paul said clearly

2Co 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

God never destroyed His law as Jesus clearly taught Mat 5:17, not a jot or tittle can be removed Mat 5:18 and in teaching to break the least of these commandments comes with a warning I personally would not gloss over Mat 5:19-20

The change is the placement of God's law from written on stone to written on the heart

Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

God claimed the Ten Commandments as His laws written and spoken by God

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Do we really know better than the God of the Universe own Testimony Exo 31:18

Did Jesus teach we didn't need to keep God's commandments?

Of course not.
Luke 18:20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
Mat 12:12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Jesus condemned those who didn't keep God's commandments quoting from the same unit you claim are temporary. Who are we supposed to believe the creation over the Creator?

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO CURSES FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Mat 15:5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
Mat 15:6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
Mat 15:8 'THESE PEOPLE DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
Mat 15:9 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.' "

Did Paul teach the commandments were temporary?
Eph 6:2 "HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER," which is the first commandment with promise:

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Rom 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
Rom 2:22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
Rom 2:23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?

Paul taught breaking God's law is sin- Is Paul teaching people to sin?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

And be an enmity against God

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

We need to be careful who we are listening to, the way people twist the Scriptures and Paul's writings is leading people sadly to destruction 2 Peter 3:16 and as Jesus stated into a path that leads to a ditch Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19 when we are told to take the narrow path Mat 7:13-14 and through our faith in listening to the voice of God over man- reconciles us back to Him Rev 22:14

 

[Clare73]

Hi HBP, welcome to the thread. The fact is that Jesus brought to an end the Levitical sacrificial system. Why then is it so hard to believe Jesus brought to an end all of the laws of the Old Covenant? In 2Cor3:6-11 Paul explicitly tells us that the Ten Commandments were temporary, and the King James version tells us that they were DONE AWAY. What more evidence do we need to know for sure that the word fulfill in Matt 5 means bring to an end? Well, there is more evidence, read Col 2: 16-17, Eph 2: 11-15, Gal 3, where Paul calls the Galatians foolish for believing they had to keep the Law, and Rom 6:14. Why are we not under the Law? Could it be because Jesus brought it to an end?

Those on the forum who hold that we must observe the old covenant Israelite Sabbath try to make everyone else believe Jesus really didn't do what He said He was going to do. He said He came to FULFILL the Law and the prophets. They have to use some other meaning of fulfill.

And Jesus is our Sabath, our full-time rest (Heb 4:4) in God's own Sabbath rest (Heb 4:8-9), from all our works to save.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God promised not to change the words of the covenant Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18. Jesus said he is Lord of the Sabbath i.e. the Creator Mark 2:28 not that He is the Sabbath day i.e. creation.

God in His own Words said the Sabbath is something man does

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."

God never gave Himself a commandment, therefore Jesus who is God that became flesh cannot be the Sabbath commandment ..

Why we see the apostles and His disciples all doing something regarding the Sabbath commandment in the NC Luke 23:56 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 16:13 Acts 17:2 even what Jesus predicted of His faithful would be keeping (doing) 40+ years after the Cross Mat 24:20 the apostles all understood that God keeps His promises Psa 89:34 Mat 5:19

 

[Clare73]

God promised not to change the words of the covenant Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18. Jesus said he is Lord of the Sabbath i.e. the Creator Mark 2:28 not that He is the Sabbath day i.e. creation.
God in His own Words said the Sabbath is something man does
Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
God never gave Himself a commandment..
Why we see the apostles and His disciples all doing something regarding the Sabbath commandment in the NC Luke 23:56 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 16:13 Acts 17:2 even what Jesus predicted of His faithful would be keeping 40+ years after the Cross Mat 24:20 the apostles all understood that God keeps His promises Psa 89:34 Mat 5:19

I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the new covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue, "do no harm."

 

[HIM]

They have to use some other meaning of fulfill.

That is a lie. Here is Strong's: From G4134; to make replete that is (literally) to cram (a net) level up (a hollow) or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue diffuse influence) satisfy execute (an office) finish (a period or task) verify (or coincide with a prediction) etc.: - accomplish X after (be) complete end expire fill (up) fulfil (be make) full (come) fully preach perfect supply.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the new covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue, "do no harm."

Doesn't address your previous post, just a circular argument. Jesus never taught a new command deletes all of the other commandments. That's adding our own reasoning to what Jesus clearly taught.

I would consider all of the words of Jesus because He taught the opposite the Ten Commandments did not end according to Him in the NC, just put in another place our hearts if we do not rebel Rom 8:7-8 and had some warnings about those who teach this exact thing I personally would take more serious, but we all have free will

Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

I see... You then have a Calvinist position. That is another topic though. Christ was indeed the only effective sacrifice for anyone. Actually, I have a Paulist position. . .I am not very well versed in Calvin.

www.christianforums.com

 

[HIM]

I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the new covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue, "do no harm."

If you sin you are under the law and will be judged accordingly

 

[Clare73]

Doesn't address your previous post, just a circular argument. Jesus never taught a new command deletes all of the other commandments.

He also never taught not to eat meat on Tuesdays.

 

[Clare73]

If you sin you are under the law and will be judged accordingly

Read the NT again.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He also never taught not to eat meat on Tuesdays.

So you are claiming Jesus deleted all the other laws except for this the one command, Please demonstrate that through Scripture.

In regards to this new command- how did Jesus love us- by creating us to be lawless? So He can say depart from Me at His Second COming Mat 7:21-23 Nah, that's not even what this one command means. Jesus in His own Words condemned what you are teaching. Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:17-30

 

[Clare73]

So you are claiming Jesus deleted all the other laws except for this the one command. Please demonstrate that through Scripture. I already quoted where Jesus in His own Words condemned what you are teaching.

He also condemned all that violated the Levitical laws.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He also condemned all that violated the Levitical laws.

All the laws that were a prescription for sin ended at the Cross Heb 10:1-22 Heb 9:10-15 and we have a better way to receive forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ when we confess to Him and repent and turn from sin. 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13

The description of sin, the Ten Commandments is still sin in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 and no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30 Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 but if we refuse to allow God to be God to define what sin is or save us from our sins, its not a good position to be in Rom 8:7-8 once Jesus returns Mat 7:21-23

 

[HIM]

Read the NT again.

That is Not a reply that actually denounces anything.

 

[FireDragon76]

He also condemned all that violated the Levitical laws.

Jesus had a different understanding of what "following the Law" meant, than either his pharisaical interlocutors, or some modern moralists or legalists would be able to comprehend. That's why he taught in parables.