• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,383
188
54
South Bend, IN
Visit site
✟715,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Okay... Are there some laws that don't show sin, then?
Brother, the prophet Samuel said the following to king Saul when God rejected Saul as king. Based on what Samuel said, it would seem that any disobedience is sinful. Those laws that show sin are constant but obedience can change from its shadow with animal sacrifices to its reality in the sacrifice of Jesus.

Rebellion is as sinful as witchcraft, and stubbornness as bad as worshiping idols. (1 Samuel 15:23a NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Brother, the prophet Samuel said the following to king Saul when God rejected Saul as king. Based on what Samuel said, it would seem that any disobedience is sinful. Those laws that show sin are constant but obedience can change from its shadow with animal sacrifices to its reality in the sacrifice of Jesus.

Rebellion is as sinful as witchcraft, and stubbornness as bad as worshiping idols. (1 Samuel 15:23a NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Is that a yes? Every law in the law of Moses shows sin?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How about getting this thread back on track.
Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?
Sounds great! Like our brother guevaraj says below, at least some laws have changed from shadow to reality.

Jesus fulfilled the entire law, meaning that we now keep the reality of it
not the shadow imo.

Those laws that show sin are constant but obedience can change from its shadow with animal sacrifices to its reality in the sacrifice of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,383
188
54
South Bend, IN
Visit site
✟715,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Jesus fulfilled the entire law
Brother, you still cling to a bad translation that contradicts the rest of the Scriptures. Jesus cannot fulfill the law for us! What Jesus accomplished through His sacrifice is to give us as many opportunities as we need to step out of the depths of sin that Satan contributed to by deceiving our first parents. You cannot separate from sin on the first try, demonstrated through so many animal sacrifices, but we can separate from sin through repeated attempts. You don't master the piano on your first try, it takes many tries to master the piano. The same is true of sin, but Jesus cannot fulfill the law for us, we still need to separate from sin and Jesus has shown us the way through His daily service as High Priest in the heavenly temple. This repeated process of growth toward sinlessness is most clearly illustrated in the death of so many animals that Jesus sped up as our heavenly High Priest.

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Brother, you still cling to a bad translation that contradicts the rest of the Scriptures. Jesus cannot fulfill the law for us! What Jesus accomplished through His sacrifice is to give us as many opportunities as we need to step out of the depths of sin that Satan contributed to by deceiving our first parents. You cannot separate from sin on the first try, demonstrated through so many animal sacrifices, but we can separate from sin through repeated attempts. You don't master the piano on your first try, it takes many tries to master the piano. The same is true of sin, but Jesus cannot fulfill the law for us, we still need to separate from sin and Jesus has shown us the way through His daily service as High Priest in the heavenly temple. This repeated process of growth toward sinlessness is most clearly illustrated in the death of so many animals that Jesus sped up as our heavenly High Priest.

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
I believe you already agree that Jesus can change what we keep of the law from shadow to reality.

I'm just saying that Jesus did that with the entire law. That's how it looks to me.

Peace, my brother!
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,947
2,355
90
Union County, TN
✟834,411.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe you already agree that Jesus can change what we keep of the law from shadow to reality.

I'm just saying that Jesus did that with the entire law. That's how it looks to me.

Peace, my brother!
You are too kind. Jorge wrote something entirely wrong: "Brother, you still cling to a bad translation that contradicts the rest of the Scriptures. Jesus cannot fulfill the law for us!"

That statement blows my mind. Jesus is God and God can do anything that pleases Him. Jesus said He came to fulfil the Law. He did it for those who were under the Law. All the Law could do was to condemn those under it. Paul wrote that the ten commandments WERE the ministry of death. 2Cor3:7 Jesus ended those commands at Calvary. He fulfilled (brought an end to the Law) at the cross. Being fixated on a day and when it begins is futile because no one is under the Laws that had special days that had to be observed in a special way.
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,383
188
54
South Bend, IN
Visit site
✟715,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
He fulfilled (brought an end to the Law) at the cross. Being fixated on a day and when it begins is futile because no one is under the Laws that had special days that had to be observed in a special way.
Brother, happy Sabbath! Don't you know that God is holy? We have to change because He doesn't! Someone more capable than us with a third of the angels behind him has tried to change Him and will fail.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” (Hebrews 4:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,040
1,020
America
Visit site
✟328,425.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Fulfillment was obedience there should have been. So fallen are all who are of humanity, that none are obedient fully to God, just Jesus could be, and was, fulfilling so what the law was there for, to have obedience to God being shown. That did not abolish it. Those saying that is its meaning do not grasp the meaning of fulfillment. The penalty for disobedience is what Christ bore for us who come to Christ in faith. There is still obedience to have, that even though we have been failing we can have more, doing as God said to do. Repentance is for turning from sin to obedience to God, and there should be growth toward that. God's will is shown earlier in the Bible and what is shown later contrary to it would be accommodation for the fallen with stubbornness and hard hearts that will not do more for obeying God than the minimum things... just so that any might be saved, through Christ with faith. God does not change, God's will does not change.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,654
7,620
North Carolina
✟358,495.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Fulfillment was obedience there should have been. So fallen are all who are of humanity, that none are obedient fully to God, just Jesus could be, and was, fulfilling so what the law was there for, to have obedience to God being shown.
Actually, the law was given to reveal sin (Ro 3:20), not to make righteous (Ro 3:21).
Since Abraham (Ge 15:5-6), righteousness has been only by faith (Ro 4:5).
That did not abolish it.
The OT Decalogue, "do no harm" is inferior to the NT "love one another as I have loved you,"
just as the OT sacrifices were inferior to Christ's sacrifice.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bob S
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,040
1,020
America
Visit site
✟328,425.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Actually, the law was given to reveal sin (Ro 3:20), not to make righteous (Ro 3:21).
Since Abraham (Ge 15:5-6), righteousness has been only by faith (Ro 4:5).

The OT Decalogue, "do no harm" is inferior to the NT "love one another as I have loved you,"
just as the OT sacrifices were inferior to Christ's sacrifice.

Well, you want to bring up righteousness... That's something else. You don't have any of your own. No one does. Since ever, actually, any righteousness is from God, through Christ, to be applied to the redeemed. What is the point of sin being revealed? It is pointless for any betterment, but for repentance from sin to come to God and seek God's will, to do so. And, God showed that will for us, through revelation. Doing this would be toward obedience, and it is just doing what we should do, not the godly things that Christ was going to apply to us, that is the righteousness needed that we have from Christ. And indeed sacrifices of animals never did for anyone what is needed that is only from Christ. Jesus Christ really had to come, and there never was another way. It does not mean to have us free from obedience to God, that was shown for us. Love God shows is not limited and not for us to limit.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bob S
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,654
7,620
North Carolina
✟358,495.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well, you want to bring up righteousness... That's something else. You don't have any of your own. No one does. Since ever, actually, any righteousness is from God, through Christ, to be applied to the redeemed. What is the point of sin being revealed?
To show the necessity of a Savior to save them from the wrath of God on their sin.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,040
1,020
America
Visit site
✟328,425.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
To show the necessity of a Savior to save them from the wrath of God on their sin.

Yes, but that is not possibly all. Christ Jesus did not speak to all others to repent for nothing. God did not say what to do or what not to do for nothing but showing need of the Savior to save them from the wrath of God. The Savior is not doing something to go contrary to what God would do. The Word with God who is God is in agreement with God about everything. God is not willing that any just perish, but all should repent with their faith to be delivered. It is God's plan all along but any need to respond to be saved in essential faith with which they are in Christ to whom they come, through whom they are restored to God. This is with being delivered from sin with which they should not just remain with. We need to know the will of God, to do accordingly from the heart.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,654
7,620
North Carolina
✟358,495.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, but that is not possibly all. Christ Jesus did not speak to all others to repent for nothing.
The gospel is preached to all, only the elect savingly respond.
God did not say what to do or what not to do for nothing but showing need of the Savior to save them from the wrath of God. The Savior is not doing something to go contrary to what God would do. The Word with God who is God is in agreement with God about everything. God is not willing that any just perish, but all should repent with their faith to be delivered. It is God's plan all along but any need to respond to be saved in essential faith with which they are in Christ to whom they come, through whom they are restored to God. This is with being delivered from sin with which they should not just remain with. We need to know the will of God, to do accordingly from the heart.
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,189
3,447
✟1,009,579.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So, the reason for this thread is to discuss Matt 5:17-18. Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law? We have no qualms about His fulfilling and bringing to a final end the prophecies concerning Him. Why do some hesitate to believe He did the same for the Law?
to be fair this is poorly worded and is more along the lines of a strawman as no one from any position claims Jesus failed at anything and it feels like a trap when posed that way. The difficulty is Jesus came to fullfill the law which is then juxtaposed with this idea that law is not done away with nor should we teach others to break it. The two ideas seemingly conflict with each other, where a fullfilled law would mean it is no longer kept, but a law that is no longer kept also seems to creep into the "broken" category.

regardless of which position you land at it seem we all can agree that the sacrafical system is fulfilled so that we are no longer required to do it. So do we break the sacrificial system and teach others to do the same? No, because Christ fullfilled being the perfect sacrafice himself the sacrafice is now satisfied through Christ, which is the key take away.

The sacrificial system is included in the context of Mat 5 so however we justify the sacrafical system to be complete through Christ, we can use that same logic to complete really any law and certainly any ritual-based law which innately has no moral components. This really is not an arguing point, we forfiet our claims on keeping an aspect of the law when we don't keep all law.

So can Christ also complete moral laws like stealing or murdering? Christ can't make a 4-sided triangle so to say he makes harming others all of a sudden good is strawman. harming others still remains wrong and will always be wrong. What Christ does is show us a better way through his law of loving God first then loving neighbour showing us more of a heuristic approach to serving God then a list of dos and donts that can be exploited. Christ uses the language that all the law and the prophets hang upon these two commandments and NT teaching uses the language that it fulfills law itself. I don't think it's that if I bake my neighbour brownies, it fulfills law but that if I abide with Christ with the product of love to others, it fulfills law. The fullfilling part is not by my works but through Christ, however my abiding with Christ will produce the love requirement and in doing so loves God.

A comparison of 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6 and Gal 6:15 will show the context that Paul approaches "commandments" and by comparing these verses it seems conclusive what Paul means by keeping God's commandments

1 Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

Gal 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 6:15
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.\

if we continue to follow the context in Galtions this is where Paul says "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” this is Gal 5:14 and is in the same context of 5:6 and 6:15. It is clear Paul is looking at "what matters" through a lense of Christ's law and not invoking the 10 commandments. Since 1 Cor 7:19 is mirror language and it's still Paul talking, we shouldn't inject a competing focus. Paul is addressing the same context in 1 Cor 7:19 as he is in Galatians. his conclusions are keeping Christ's law, they are nothing else. In doing so we don't break law or teach others to do the same so long as we continue to abide with Christ as Christ fulfills/completes law. Without Christ then certainly are lawless and lost so Christ is integral to the fulfilling aspects.
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,947
2,355
90
Union County, TN
✟834,411.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
to be fair this is poorly worded and is more along the lines of a strawman as no one from any position claims Jesus failed at anything and it feels like a trap when posed that way.
Wow! just how would you have worded it? The "keep the law" posters have decided that Jesus didn't fulfill (bring to an end) all He came to do, yet like you, He brought to an end the Levitical sacrificial system. That makes His statement about not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law UNTIL all is accomplished, void. So, the question I posed is relevant to the subject, and your non-punctuated, poor review is noted.
The difficulty is Jesus came to fullfill the law which is then juxtaposed with this idea that law is not done away with nor should we teach others to break it. The two ideas seemingly conflict with each other, where a fullfilled law would mean it is no longer kept, but a law that is no longer kept also seems to creep into the "broken" category.

regardless of which position you land at it seem we all can agree that the sacrafical system is fulfilled so that we are no longer required to do it. So do we break the sacrificial system and teach others to do the same? No, because Christ fullfilled being the perfect sacrafice himself the sacrafice is now satisfied through Christ, which is the key take away.

The sacrificial system is included in the context of Mat 5 so however we justify the sacrafical system to be complete through Christ, we can use that same logic to complete really any law and certainly any ritual-based law which innately has no moral components. This really is not an arguing point, we forfiet our claims on keeping an aspect of the law when we don't keep all law.

So can Christ also complete moral laws like stealing or murdering? Christ can't make a 4-sided triangle so to say he makes harming others all of a sudden good is strawman. harming others still remains wrong and will always be wrong. What Christ does is show us a better way through his law of loving God first then loving neighbour showing us more of a heuristic approach to serving God then a list of dos and donts that can be exploited. Christ uses the language that all the law and the prophets hang upon these two commandments and NT teaching uses the language that it fulfills law itself. I don't think it's that if I bake my neighbour brownies, it fulfills law but that if I abide with Christ with the product of love to others, it fulfills law. The fullfilling part is not by my works but through Christ, however my abiding with Christ will produce the love requirement and in doing so loves God.

A comparison of 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6 and Gal 6:15 will show the context that Paul approaches "commandments" and by comparing these verses it seems conclusive what Paul means by keeping God's commandments

1 Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

Gal 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 6:15
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.\

if we continue to follow the context in Galtions this is where Paul says "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” this is Gal 5:14 and is in the same context of 5:6 and 6:15. It is clear Paul is looking at "what matters" through a lense of Christ's law and not invoking the 10 commandments. Since 1 Cor 7:19 is mirror language and it's still Paul talking, we shouldn't inject a competing focus. Paul is addressing the same context in 1 Cor 7:19 as he is in Galatians. his conclusions are keeping Christ's law, they are nothing else. In doing so we don't break law or teach others to do the same so long as we continue to abide with Christ as Christ fulfills/completes law. Without Christ then certainly are lawless and lost so Christ is integral to the fulfilling aspects.
When a covenant ends, so do the laws contained in the covenant. The Sinai covenant has ended, and so have the laws it contained. All mankind have a new and better covenant to live by. Jesus ratified the New and better covenant with His own blood at Calvary. Jesus NEW great command is for us to love others like Jesus loves us. Jn 15: 10-14
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,189
3,447
✟1,009,579.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Wow! just how would you have worded it? The "keep the law" posters have decided that Jesus didn't fulfill (bring to an end) all He came to do, yet like you, He brought to an end the Levitical sacrificial system. That makes His statement about not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law UNTIL all is accomplished, void. So, the question I posed is relevant to the subject, and your non-punctuated, poor review is noted.

When a covenant ends, so do the laws contained in the covenant. The Sinai covenant has ended, and so have the laws it contained. All mankind have a new and better covenant to live by. Jesus ratified the New and better covenant with His own blood at Calvary. Jesus NEW great command is for us to love others like Jesus loves us. Jn 15: 10-14
The OP says:

"Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law?"

What you've presented is a strawman because no position you're representing says Jesus failed and to suggest thats what a view amounts to is offensive to those who hold it. I get there are legions of starman in these forums but that doesn't mean we should add to the noise.

There are overlapping values of the covenants such various moral aspects and of course the overall goal, Christ himself calls out the 2 greatest commandments so at the very least these commandments pass over to the new. Then passages like Mat 5 give a warning to not teach others to break any commandments from the greatest to the least. Over tradition this has been warped into a 10 commandment vacuum.

The church has also made it confusing where things like the 10 commandments has been valued by the church since it's beginning and you can pretty much walk into any church and it wouldn't shock you to see the 10 commandments being depicted somehow in a wall or in stone, etc... even calling Sunday the Sabbath. They also call our givings "tithe" and lots of churches will call the main auditorium a sanctuary or the front the alter. And this can be found in the most modern of places.

This is all confusing language and tends to prop up the old covenant values over teaching their role as it applies to the new covenant. For someone to raise up and say "hey Sunday's not the Sabbath according to the Bible" and start to value Saturday makes a lot of sense and to a degree is laudable but ultimately this is the result of uninformed teaching and allowing traditions to shape our theology which then spin off into their own communities.

Reducing these views as Christ failing is not being sensitive to the strong identity of tradition and theology these views hold that cannot be so easily separated and takes some major steps for a person to reject, even met with hostility with those in their communities. I know they don't approach Christ failing so I'm not going to corner them in that position.
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,947
2,355
90
Union County, TN
✟834,411.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The OP says:

"Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law?"

What you've presented is a strawman because no position you're representing says Jesus failed
Of course, Jesus didn't fail; He came to fulfill the Law, and that is explicitly what He did. Taking the stand that He fulfilled the Levitical Priesthood but didn't fulfill the remainder or other parts of the law smacks of failing to consider the jots and tittles not passing from the Law until all is fulfilled. Why are you making such a big issue over the truth of the matter?



and to suggest thats what a view amounts to is offensive to those who hold it. I get there are legions of starman in these forums but that doesn't mean we should add to the noise.

There are overlapping values of the covenants such various moral aspects and of course the overall goal, Christ himself calls out the 2 greatest commandments so at the very least these commandments pass over to the new. Then passages like Mat 5 give a warning to not teach others to break any commandments from the greatest to the least. Over tradition this has been warped into a 10 commandment vacuum.
There are overlapping values in the Old Covenant and the everlasting New Covenant. Laws dealing with how we treat God and our fellow man will always remain.
The church has also made it confusing where things like the 10 commandments has been valued by the church since it's beginning and you can pretty much walk into any church and it wouldn't shock you to see the 10 commandments being depicted somehow in a wall or in stone, etc... even calling Sunday the Sabbath. They also call our givings "tithe" and lots of churches will call the main auditorium a sanctuary or the front the alter. And this can be found in the most modern of places.
That is true and because even the elite continue to overlook what scripture is telling us, confusion will exist.
This is all confusing language and tends to prop up the old covenant values over teaching their role as it applies to the new covenant. For someone to raise up and say "hey Sunday's not the Sabbath according to the Bible" and start to value Saturday makes a lot of sense and to a degree is laudable but ultimately this is the result of uninformed teaching and allowing traditions to shape our theology which then spin off into their own communities.

Reducing these views as Christ failing is not being sensitive to the strong identity of tradition and theology these views hold that cannot be so easily separated and takes some major steps for a person to reject, even met with hostility with those in their communities. I know they don't approach Christ failing so I'm not going to corner them in that position.
What you do and write is your privilege. I believe I have to present the truth, and the truth is that no one is under the dictates of the failed covenant that was conditionally given to one nation, Israel.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,040
1,020
America
Visit site
✟328,425.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The gospel is preached to all, only the elect savingly respond.

I see... You then have a Calvinist position. That is another topic though.

Christ was indeed the only effective sacrifice for anyone.
 
Upvote 0