Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

[Jacque_Pierre22]

All I was taught was OSAS and just believe in Jesus at a young age. Apostates have a false "intellectual" faith just as it says in this book, "Perseverance and Apostasy in the NT". I would say the hardest part to understand is hearing about the word "apostasy" in the first place as an unpardonable sin or an actual doctrine and not just a "phenomena". the most important doctrine I never heard of...
According to the Reformed Presbyterian view, apostasy can be committed by anyone at any time in many ways. I was told that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit/Ghost was impossible nowadays when I heard about it when I was young but apparently that is completely wrong. There are apparently different words for "apostasy" that are all synonyms. I know a lot of Arminians discuss this topic but according to the Presbyterian view, you cannot become saved once you are an "apostate". It's basically set in stone. Apparently only Presbyterian/Reformed take it seriously enough, regardless I never heard about it growing up in a Lutheran church denom. Maybe people get taught about it from their parents. Maybe I was in the one church that didn't mention it in sermons or whatever. Basically has to do with "moral apostasy" following 10 commandments ,more than endless doctrine points which can be corrected; Numbers 15:30 and Leviticus teach only sins of ignorance and unintentional are forgivable. Basically without the Holy Spirit, it is inevitable that one commits apostasy, apostates never received the Holy Spirit. This is basically the whole point of the New Testament, The actual word "apostasy" only occurs maybe once in the NT so I didn't know.
Apostasy= the unpardonable sin = blasphemy of the Holy Spirit(by works Ezek 20:27) = unforgivable sin= denial of Christ = sin against Jesus= sin unto death (1 John 5:16) = sin against conscience= presumptuous sin = high handed sin = willful sin = intentional sin = deliberate sin = "the transgression" (book of Daniel) ; also lying to the Holy Spirit, testing the Lord, contempt of the Word of God, breach of faith

example of saved person, God has mercy :
Hears Gospel at age 7--> repents---> receives Holy Spirit---> is justified--> can now only do "moral aberrations/backsliding" and keeps 10 commandments--> grows in holiness in sanctification
example of apostate, God hardens:
Hears false Gospel at age 7 doesn't get it --> receives Evil Spirit possibly even --> cant' keep 10 commandments (antinomianism)--> apostate, can't repent according to Isaiah 6, Jeremiah 11:11, or Jeremiah 14:11
(*only the Holy Spirit is capable of renewing the mind and heart to make right decisions in life, therefore not renewing yourself at a young age sets you up for failure and apostasy, it's not something you develop, you must ask God )
So basically John 14:15.
So I thought about it as a "phenomenon" or mostly about Christian doctrine but that is not how the New Testament talks about it. You can believe mentally but not be saved, it's just a figment of your imagination if you don't have good works. Seraphim Rose talks about it as a doctrinal phenomenon, that's not what it is. Also most Reformed only quietly talk about it amongst themselves, and they just say "apostasy" , not the "sin of apostasy" so I never got the point of it. Apostasy is a terrible word and then "apostasize" is even more ridiculous wording. Then you have all of these sources saying that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not possible anymore, that is wrong.
The people who were taught early and received the Holy Spirit, do everything right. Ecclesiastes 12:2,13,14
Repentance is for the young, but they don't tell you unless you're around the right people; The word "traitors" or "betrayers" would be better. So the "unpardonable sin" is not one sin but not receiving/rejecting the Holy Spirit by actions and not dedicating yourself to God ideally at age 7 or 8, which makes sense, a lot of pastors I know say they were saved at a very very young age and explains why society is what it is. it's better to be taught right from a young age as it says in Ecclesiastes and society is designed to make you apostate with the atheist school system and letting you play video games all day or distracted by politics or the stock market; then you would need to find someone to take you to a better church without a train system like in the 1800s with trolleys...instead we have this ridiculous car/bus system, it should be more like Japan... certain parts of the country have it easier. oh well this is just my reflection on this ........good luck to all...

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

In this respect, receiving the Holy Spirit and knowing you have received Him is way more important than debating Calvinism vs Arminianism or fine points of theology, probably the most important. Don't assume you are regenerated in Baptism . In this regard , I now see the point of Pentecostal people. You can easily be distracted from what's important.

 

[d taylor]

All I was taught was OSAS and just believe in Jesus at a young age. Apostates have a false "intellectual" faith just as it says in this book, "Perseverance and Apostasy in the NT". I would say the hardest part to understand is hearing about the word "apostasy" in the first place as an unpardonable sin or an actual doctrine and not just a "phenomena". the most important doctrine I never heard of...
According to the Reformed Presbyterian view, apostasy can be committed by anyone at any time in many ways. I was told that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit/Ghost was impossible nowadays when I heard about it when I was young but apparently that is completely wrong. There are apparently different words for "apostasy" that are all synonyms. I know a lot of Arminians discuss this topic but according to the Presbyterian view, you cannot become saved once you are an "apostate". It's basically set in stone. Apparently only Presbyterian/Reformed take it seriously enough, regardless I never heard about it growing up in a Lutheran church denom. Maybe people get taught about it from their parents. Maybe I was in the one church that didn't mention it in sermons or whatever. Basically has to do with "moral apostasy" following 10 commandments ,more than endless doctrine points which can be corrected; Numbers 15:30 and Leviticus teach only sins of ignorance and unintentional are forgivable. Basically without the Holy Spirit, it is inevitable that one commits apostasy, apostates never received the Holy Spirit. This is basically the whole point of the New Testament, The actual word "apostasy" only occurs maybe once in the NT so I didn't know.
Apostasy= the unpardonable sin = blasphemy of the Holy Spirit(by works Ezek 20:27) = unforgivable sin= denial of Christ = sin against Jesus= sin unto death (1 John 5:16) = sin against conscience= presumptuous sin = high handed sin = willful sin = intentional sin = deliberate sin = "the transgression" (book of Daniel) ; also lying to the Holy Spirit, testing the Lord, contempt of the Word of God, breach of faith

example of saved person, God has mercy :
Hears Gospel at age 7--> repents---> receives Holy Spirit---> is justified--> can now only do "moral aberrations/backsliding" and keeps 10 commandments--> grows in holiness in sanctification
example of apostate, God hardens:
Hears false Gospel at age 7 doesn't get it --> receives Evil Spirit possibly even --> cant' keep 10 commandments (antinomianism)--> apostate, can't repent according to Isaiah 6, Jeremiah 11:11, or Jeremiah 14:11
(*only the Holy Spirit is capable of renewing the mind and heart to make right decisions in life, therefore not renewing yourself at a young age sets you up for failure and apostasy, it's not something you develop, you must ask God )
So basically John 14:15.
So I thought about it as a "phenomenon" or mostly about Christian doctrine but that is not how the New Testament talks about it. You can believe mentally but not be saved, it's just a figment of your imagination if you don't have good works. Seraphim Rose talks about it as a doctrinal phenomenon, that's not what it is. Also most Reformed only quietly talk about it amongst themselves, and they just say "apostasy" , not the "sin of apostasy" so I never got the point of it. Apostasy is a terrible word and then "apostasize" is even more ridiculous wording. Then you have all of these sources saying that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not possible anymore, that is wrong.
The people who were taught early and received the Holy Spirit, do everything right. Ecclesiastes 12:2,13,14
Repentance is for the young, but they don't tell you unless you're around the right people; The word "traitors" or "betrayers" would be better. So the "unpardonable sin" is not one sin but not receiving/rejecting the Holy Spirit by actions and not dedicating yourself to God ideally at age 7 or 8, which makes sense, a lot of pastors I know say they were saved at a very very young age and explains why society is what it is. it's better to be taught right from a young age as it says in Ecclesiastes and society is designed to make you apostate with the atheist school system and letting you play video games all day or distracted by politics or the stock market; then you would need to find someone to take you to a better church without a train system like in the 1800s with trolleys...instead we have this ridiculous car/bus system, it should be more like Japan... certain parts of the country have it easier. oh well this is just my reflection on this ........good luck to all...

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I see your problem you have been taught false gospels

example of saved person, God has mercy :
Hears Gospel at age 7--> repents---> receives Holy Spirit---> is justified--> can now only do "moral aberrations/backsliding" and keeps 10 commandments--> grows in holiness in sanctification
example of apostate, God hardens:
Hears false Gospel at age 7 doesn't get it --> receives Evil Spirit possibly even --> cant' keep 10 commandments (antinomianism)--> apostate, can't repent according to Isaiah 6, Jeremiah 11:11, or Jeremiah 14:11

There is no mention in your gospels about believing in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. And believing in Jesus for Eternal Life is the only way you can be born again and become a pernamnet child of God.

 

[fhansen]

In this respect, receiving the Holy Spirit and knowing you have received Him is way more important than debating Calvinism vs Arminianism or fine points of theology, probably the most important. Don't assume you are regenerated in Baptism . In this regard , I now see the point of Pentecostal people. You can easily be distracted from what's important.

That's what I thought. But I saw more bogus stuff that was attributed to the Spirit in an AOG church I attended for 3 years, than anywhere outside.

Either way, we must remain walking by the Spirit, whether we met and united with Him as a child or as an adult. It's an ongoing journey

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

I'm just pointing out info that I didn't know as a child because I wasn't taught right. I never read the Old Testament as a kid or knew they were interconnected with the New Testament, as I said, the footnotes in the New Testament in my Bible didn't reference any of these passages in Leviticus or Numbers either. Sure you need faith to have obedience but that wasn't the point of the post; the point was that there are "unpardonable" sins, and that all it takes is 1 for "apostasy" which I never heard of either as a child; then once apostate you cannot be forgiven. I'm like 90% sure I'm apostate, so it is what it is. I went to a church where the sermon was 10 minutes and my parents didn't encourage me to go to Sunday school so I played video games all day and there was dial up internet; whereas the "elect" are predestined to understand and get it at a young age for the most part, of course , there are exceptions but if God wants you to be saved there will be people in your life that actually care about you understanding the gospel. I'm pretty sure I lied to the Holy Spirit at a young age when I had to give a testimony at church at like age 12 but didn't have one.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, many of us weren’t taught so well as children, by people who didn't know so well. They have a smaller, often mean and petty God largely made in their own, human, image. The God revealed by Jesus is way bigger than that, by an infinite degree one might say. And He’s supremely patient, BTW, wanting all to repent and none to perish-2 Pet 3:9. This idea that it all happens at youth is not the norm, in fact. See where those young “elect” are 30 years down the road; not always such a pretty sight to see.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

I think I was apostate at like around age 10-12, based on "willfully" being another synonym for an unpardonable sin of Hebrews 10: 26-31. Unless someone told me specifically, I was too dense to "listen" from reading it alone, someone had to tell me audibly.. It would have made sense to me if I had known this was the whole point of the Bible, to "persevere" against the temptations of the devil in life or you "fall away" or "stumble" . They could explain this so easily, I don't know why they don't explain it, they just assume you know somehow....but now it makes sense that the ultimate ethical being in the universe isn't too happy with people not obeying, academics hardly matter, but that's all my parents cared about. you can be a sandwich maker and go to heaven as long as you do right but my mind was so focused on academics because of my parents that I missed the entire point of Christianity. Also it's 1200 pages long (the Bible), I had no idea as a kid besides maybe if I read Hebrews about this apostasy/ unpardonable sin/ blasphemy of the Holy Spirit doctrine unless someone taught me or was like handing out flyers or something but like I said only audible clicks with me so reading it wouldn't sink in. the only reason it clicked reading that book was because it was over 1,000 pages long.
It only confused me telling me about the "thief on the cross" and other Biblical examples of sinners who repented ... all I needed to hear in my bird brain was believe in Jesus + obey 10 commandments, but I got mentally contorted into antinomianism.

 

[Hentenza]

As I read through the posts here I can’t help but notice that you guys sound like you are still under the law. Christ fulfilled the law so we walk in the spirit rather than the flesh. Paul stated in Romans 8 that:

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:1-6 Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law c | New American Standard Bible - NASB

Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law c

bible.com

We are not saved by what we do but by the grace of God through faith.

 

[Hentenza]

​

There is no mention in your gospels about believing in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

bible.com

 

[d taylor]

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

bible.com

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​

Ok, but the original starter (Jacque_Pierre22) of this thread posted his example of a saved person.

example of saved person, God has mercy :
Hears Gospel at age 7--> repents---> receives Holy Spirit---> is justified--> can now only do "moral aberrations/backsliding" and keeps 10 commandments--> grows in holiness in sanctification

But the problem with his example it never mentions believing in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. There is no being saved without a person believing in Jesus.

 

[Hentenza]

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Ok, but the original starter (Jacque_Pierre22) of this thread posted his example of a saved person.

example of saved person, God has mercy :
Hears Gospel at age 7--> repents---> receives Holy Spirit---> is justified--> can now only do "moral aberrations/backsliding" and keeps 10 commandments--> grows in holiness in sanctification

But the problem with his example it never mentions believing in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. There is no being saved without a person believing in Jesus.

I agree which is why I posted about sounding like he is following the law rather than the Spirit.

 

[d taylor]

I agree which is why I posted about sounding like he is following the law rather than the Spirit.

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Ok, i really did not know what you were addressing and i agree the poster is trying to work their way to heaven.

 

[fhansen]

As I read through the posts here I can’t help but notice that you guys sound like you are still under the law. Christ fulfilled the law so we walk in the spirit rather than the flesh. Paul stated in Romans 8 that:

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:1-6 Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law c | New American Standard Bible - NASB

Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law c

bible.com

We are not saved by what we do but by the grace of God through faith.

And yet we must understand that the new covenant is not some sort of reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous/holy- and live accordingly. For example, we can read on in Rom 8 to see what those who are truly in accord with the Spirit actually do-and why they must:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[Hentenza]

And yet we must understand that the new covenant is not some sort of reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous/holy- and live accordingly. For example, we can read on in Rom 8 to see what those who are truly in accord with the Spirit actually do-and why they must:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Do you think that all Christians still sin?

 

[fhansen]

Do you think that all Christians still sin?

Yes. And yet, do you think that persistence in wanton, grave sin wouldn't keep a believer out of heaven?

 

[Hentenza]

Yes. And yet, do you think that persistence in wanton, grave sin wouldn't keep a believer out of heaven?

I don’t think so. Jesus came while we were still sinners, Paul calls himself the most wretched man, and salvation is by faith not by works.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t think so. Jesus came while we were still sinners, Paul calls himself the most wretched man, and salvation is by faith not by works.

Paul gives us the answer in Rom 7:25: Jesus gives us the power to overcome the sin that condemns us to death (Rom 8:1), that frees us from the "slavery to sin" (Rom 6), to be forgiven and then to "go, and sin no more", as "the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us" now (Rom 8:4).

The new covenant isn't only about forgiveness but also about being made new creations, with new hearts and spirits, now united with the Trinty, grafted into the Vine where the Holy Spirt empowers us to overcome sin as per the verses already given: Rom 8:12-14. We're justifed by faith, and therefore saved, freely translated by God from the ungodly to the godly- and then we must remain in Him, walking in that relationship, in that justice, that righteousness, in this new righteousness given (Rom 5:17), a righteousness that the law and prophets rightfully testify to but cannot accomplish in us (3:23 & Rom 7), the righteousness that comes not from the law but directly from God on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9). I mean, the passages reflecting this are just too numerous to ignore:

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

And all of John's 1st letter, and Rev 21:6-8, Rev 22: 14-15, etc

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

yea like I said, the entire NT went right over my head because it was all about works and effort , two things that I was told not to worry about in Calvinism , Lutheranism, that I would just somehow do everything right and be forgiven if I failed. yes I'm that dumb. Presbyterianism is more Catholic than anything I came across because it emphasizes works more, has this apostasy/blasphemy of the Holy Spirit doctrine, a point of no return where repentance is impossible, so now the NT makes sense to me now. the NT is written by saints who are on another level; there is no forgiveness for apostates just judgement. each book of the NT gives examples of blasphemies against the Holy Spirit, even intra-denominational stuff I think is blasphemy, if you convert from Calvinism to Lutheranism and start criticizing leaders of the Reformed all the time as a pastime, that's Korah's rebellion sin, apostasy, there's really innumerable ways it happens, that's why it's impossible to avoid without the Holy Spirit in my opinion.

 

[JulieB67]

All I was taught was OSAS and just believe in Jesus at a young age.

I was too. But a little over 20 years ago when I finally started to get into the Word that I saw that it wasn't true. Someone can certainly fall so far away. But we have to realize that upon true repentance, which can take time, sometimes years for some people, one can get back in the fold. That's why God is so long suffering because he doesn't want anyone to perish but come to repentance. That new way of thinking, that change of heart. Does that mean one is perfect? No but only God is the heart knower for sure. He knows who's honestly repented and trying to walk in the light, putting the spirit over the flesh.

you cannot become saved once you are an "apostate".

You can't be "saved again" as Hebrews states that's like putting Christ back on the cross, etc. But one can repent. We've all willfully sinned as well I'm sure. But it's the habitual willful sinner that has no plan to repent, that's the problem. If someone goes on willfully sinning, not caring and completely departing from the truth after having receiving it- that's the apostate. We are in the flesh that's a constant battle as Paul teaches.

We need to take out what the different denominations teach and seek only the Father's Word. When we do that, we see that he is merciful, patient, slow to anger and upon repentance quick to forgive.

We cannot walk in darkness, because as John states the truth then is not in us But he also states if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us as well.. But I certainly believe we can get back into the "light" and have our sins forgiven us. If we have true repentance in our heart, we will be forgiven.

I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


We even have Christ's letters to the churches urging those to repent. For example -

Revelation 2:4 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

We see that this church has left and fallen. Yet repentance is possible.

I was in the one church that didn't mention it in sermons or whatever

I left my church well over 20 years ago. I've always stated one could spend a lifetime sitting on a pew and coming a way only being fed milk. Especially when the sermon is a few verses from God's word surrounded by a personal sermon written by man. That's man's word, not Gods'. It's good to have teachers but we are losing out when we get mainly man's word over God's. I'm sure there are good churches out there but we have to be so careful.

it's just a figment of your imagination if you don't have good works.

Again, God is the heart knower. Good works come naturally from the heart after true repentance. It's not forced but living how God created us.

Repentance is for the young, but they don't tell you unless you're around the right people;

That's not what the Word states. Again, take Christ's examples to the churches.

then you would need to find someone to take you to a better church

No offense but we have to be careful with what we're indoctrinated with in certain churches. I left mine when I realized that so many false doctrines had been fed to me.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

the book explains the difference between backsliding and apostasy, most of the verses are actually talking about apostasy in the NT. there are three categories: uncalled, saved, and apostate. someone can be apostate without knowing also.