Exodus 31:17 "in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth"

[David Lamb]

I am saying you have no evidence for "nothing". In the beginning was something because you cannot begin with nothing. Mostly in the beginning was hydrogen, helium, and a small amount of lithium. They were the first three elements. The Universe (Creation) had to contract or shrink before it could expand. I personally do not believe that there was ever nothing. God told me in a dream that He will bring everything back together again.

Gerald Schroeder - Articles - Age of the Universe

Thanks for replying. I take the bible, God's Word, as meaning that (apart from God Himself) there was indeed nothing before He began creating something. There is no idea there that He took pre-existing materials and made the universe out of them. Saying that in the beginning there was hydrogen, helium, and a small amount of lithium just pushes the question further back. What was their origin? The bible says:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

It doesn't say "all things except hydrogen, helium and lithium were made through Him"!

 

[Ace777]

What was their origin?

The universe had to shrink before it could expand. This is a great mystery how an eternal God can create a temporal world. At some point everything in the universe will all come back together again. The very first letter in the very first word in the Bible shows us God's desire to be a past of HIs creation.

According to Wikipedia, God contracted his omnipresence, the Ein Sof, in order to create the world in the beginning. This left a vacant void, or Chalal panuy, without an obvious presence. This void allows for free will, contradictions, and other phenomena that are seemingly separate from God. The reality of the world created in the void is entirely dependent on its divine origin

I take the bible, God's Word

Do you know where we got our Bible? You should look into that sometime. There is a lot more in the Bible than you seem to realize. If you can not accept what I am saying then there really is no reason for me to take the time, effort and energy to try to explain it to you.

 

[Ace777]

culture and genres

I have studied all of that for well over 50 years now. I am not going to explain myself anymore because I think it is a waste of time. If you do not want to know that is fine. No problem to me at all.

 

[David Lamb]

The universe had to shrink before it could expand. This is a great mystery how an eternal God can create a temporal world. At some point everything in the universe will all come back together again. The very first letter in the very first word in the Bible shows us God's desire to be a past of HIs creation.

According to Wikipedia, God contracted his omnipresence, the Ein Sof, in order to create the world in the beginning. This left a vacant void, or Chalal panuy, without an obvious presence. This void allows for free will, contradictions, and other phenomena that are seemingly separate from God. The reality of the world created in the void is entirely dependent on its divine origin

Do you know where we got our Bible? You should look into that sometime. There is a lot more in the Bible than you seem to realize. If you can not accept what I am saying then there really is no reason for me to take the time, effort and energy to try to explain it to you.

I'm sorry you feel that way (that your time, effort and energy are a waste of time). I suppose because we take different sources, you quoting sources which say things such as your belief that the universe had to shreink before it could expand, and your quoting Wikipedia and its view that God contracted His omnipresence, and me relying on the bible, we are unlikely to agree. Sorry.

 

[Ace777]

you quoting sources which say things such as your belief that the universe had to shreink before it could expand,

The sources I quote are the people who gave us the Bible. This is called the oral tradition that I believe goes back to Adam.

Simular is the belief that the universe is all going to come back together again. This is something that God himself showed me in a dream when I was very young. Before I knew anything at all about what science has to say about astro physics. In this dream God took me to the center of the universe and showed me where the universe began. So I am still learning about a dream that I had around 60 years ago. Because science teaches me a lot about what I saw in that dream.

 

[trophy33]

I have studied all of that for well over 50 years now. I am not going to explain myself anymore because I think it is a waste of time. If you do not want to know that is fine. No problem to me at all.

I think you are confusing me for somebody else. We two did not have any interaction regarding these topics. You just jumped in with two posts.

 

[Psalm 27]

The universe had to shrink before it could expand. This is a great mystery how an eternal God can create a temporal world. At some point everything in the universe will all come back together again. The very first letter in the very first word in the Bible shows us God's desire to be a past of HIs creation.

According to Wikipedia, God contracted his omnipresence, the Ein Sof, in order to create the world in the beginning. This left a vacant void, or Chalal panuy, without an obvious presence. This void allows for free will, contradictions, and other phenomena that are seemingly separate from God. The reality of the world created in the void is entirely dependent on its divine origin

Do you know where we got our Bible? You should look into that sometime. There is a lot more in the Bible than you seem to realize. If you can not accept what I am saying then there really is no reason for me to take the time, effort and energy to try to explain it to you.

Wiki? oh dear...I'm out

 

[reddogs]

You would be surprised how much of the Bible is oral tradition.

I am talking about what the Bible teaches about the Sabbath in general. Exodus 31 15 "Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death." This is pretty serious if people are to be put to death if they do not observe the Sabbath.

And you see how far it got the Jewish leaders and Pharisees and the distortion from 'oral tradition' we see even today. Christ when He spoke also was clear on this..

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 4:6
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 21:13
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

And that is just in Matthew...

As for the Sabbath that one is clear what happens at the end..
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Exodus 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

 

[BobRyan]

17It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’ ”

18When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

This is the Lords speaking. He made the heavens and the earth in six days. ONLY the word day here is:

יָמִ֗ים yā-mîm,

NOW we have a new ball game. The Lord uses a different word for "days".

Ex 20:11 makes it clear that it is the same days as in Gen 1-2.

Ex 20 is the context for Ex 31.
Ex 31:17 17 It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”


Ex 20:11 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[Amo2]

You would be surprised how much of the Bible is oral tradition.

I am talking about what the Bible teaches about the Sabbath in general. Exodus 31 15 "Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death." This is pretty serious if people are to be put to death if they do not observe the Sabbath.

The bible is not oral tradition, to the contrary, it claims -

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It was and is very serious. When people forget God's sabbath, they forget who God is, and who they are in relation to Him. That is a very serious situation, seeing that the very air we breath and every breath we take, is dependent upon Him. Therefore, those especially who profess to be His people, need to keep His sabbath according to His commandment. For it is a sign that God alone can sanctify anything, even a day, let alone sinners such as ourselves.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 12 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth anywork in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

 

[Amo2]

I am talking about people who make claims like the Universe was created 6,000 years ago. Or people who say the earth if flat.

I think God is bond by the nahual laws of Physics. Today they use the term Astro physics. In the same way God cannot lie, cheat, steal and so on. It is contrary to His nature. Of course we have quantum physics but that explains what classic physics can not explain.

I have seen many miracles. Hundreds, Thousands. Every miracle is God restoring things to His plan and purpose. It is difficult to prove a miracle because you have to prove that there was a problem where you needed a miracle. Nothing I have ever seen was a violation of God's laws. God is a God of absolute Justice. His scales are perfectly balance. As precise as the universe is exact and precise.

Göbekli Tepe is an archaeological site of a temple in Southeastern Turkey and has been dated back to 9500 - 8000 BCE. This date was discovered by carbon dating old tools found during excavations. This building is in fact the oldest structure on earth that we have found to date. It is even older than the Egyptian pyramids and even Stonehenge.

There are a lot of bones so a lot of people ate here. But there is no indication at all that this was a city or permanent settlement. Civilization began with Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago. 8,000 years ago people were still hunter gathers.

I'm not sure if the entire Universe was created 6,000 years ago, according to scripture though, I would say at least our galaxy was.

No, the one who created the "natural laws of Physics" is not bound by them. God is not inside the box He has limited this fallen world especially, within. The James Webb has raised some serious questions regarding our present understanding of Physics -

Scientists Just Confirmed the Presence of Unknown Physics in Our Universe

What are we missing?

www.popularmechanics.com

The Bible itself makes it quite clear that we are in the dark about a great many things. We simply are not even privy to the majority of what actually exists even right around us at all times. This is why the sciences so called of this world are so extremely deficient. Filled with people who are ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of truth, because they reject the basis of all truth, the WORD OF GOD.

Carbon dating has been proved to be highly inaccurate. Nor do the scientists who use it take into consideration the major changes which have taken place upon this planet as described in holy scripture, or evidenced in fossil remains. They presume that all things have remained the same long enough on earth, to make carbon dating accurate, but Peter addresses the danger of this presumption. This is not to mention the observable fact that almost everything was mush bigger and better in the past, than it is now.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

People were never hunter gatherers. That is to say, people never developed along some evolutionary line from hunter gatherers to what we are now. Some people just chose to be hunter gatherers. Göbekli Tepe is one of many sites which archeologists stop researching and cover up, once the evidence begins to lead away from their chosen narratives.

 

[jamiec]

When you interpret Scriptures according to the context of that passage in the Bible, then you can determine which definitions apply for the words in that passage of Scripture. There are many examples of the Day of the Lord, the Last Days of prophecy. Obviously, in prophecy, "Day" is referring to a passage of time that is not 24 hours. However, in the creation verses of the Bible, the Hebrew word for "Day" is contextually defined as a 24 hour day.

And the 7th yom, the Sabbath yom, is a 24-hour day - it does not last for thousands of years. So it makes no sense, in Gen 1 or Exodus 20, to understand the word as meaning thousands of years. So ISTM that all those days in Gen 1 are to be understood as normal familiar days of 24 hours. Why would they be understood in any other way by the original authors or by their hearers and readers ?

 

[jamiec]

You never heard of Darby, you never heard of dispensationalism? This is the most easy to explain. There was a mass extinction at the end of the ice age when the earth was "formless and empty" 13,000 years ago. That is when the earth and age we live in began and it will end at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ when there will be a new Heaven and a New Earth.

Bishop Ussher covers YEC of the last 6,000 years very well. He gives a lot of detail in his 2,000 page book. It was written 500 years ago so there is no bias for modern thought or modern science.

TE or Science is amazing in all we know about our Creator and Creation. Only as Paul says in Romans 1:25 they worship creation, rather than Creator. If you want to look at the first chapter in Genesis then OEC best explains that. It all depends on our perspective and what we are looking at.

“Bishop Ussher covers YEC of the last 6,000 years very well. He gives a lot of detail in his 2,000 page book. It was written 500 years ago”

No: 375 years ago, in 1650.

 

[Job 33:6]

Thanks for replying. I take the bible, God's Word, as meaning that (apart from God Himself) there was indeed nothing before He began creating something. There is no idea there that He took pre-existing materials and made the universe out of them. Saying that in the beginning there was hydrogen, helium, and a small amount of lithium just pushes the question further back. What was their origin? The bible says:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

It doesn't say "all things except hydrogen, helium and lithium were made through Him"!

John of course is not Moses. Nor is John retelling Genesis. John lives centuries later and is speaking of creation through a different contextual background.

Regarding Genesis:
Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The text doesn't say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it.

It's just a matter of if Genesis is describing creation through an ancient Israelite context, or through John's context of the Greco roman world.

 

[David Lamb]

John of course is not Moses. Nor is John retelling Genesis. John lives centuries later and is speaking of creation through a different contextual background.

Regarding Genesis:
Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The text doesn't say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it.

It's just a matter of if Genesis is describing creation through an ancient Israelite context, or through John's context of the Greco roman world.

As I said, I believe the bible to be God's word, in the sense that He is the ultimate Author. So whether John is retelling Genesis or not doesn't come into it.

 

[Vambram]

As I said, I believe the bible to be God's word, in the sense that He is the ultimate Author. So whether John is retelling Genesis or not doesn't come into it.

Amen, my brother.

 

[Job 33:6]

As I said, I believe the bible to be God's word, in the sense that He is the ultimate Author. So whether John is retelling Genesis or not doesn't come into it.

Well this doesn't make any sense, because if context didn't matter, then the Bible wouldn't switch from Hebrew and Aramaic over the Greek midway through. This is just an excuse to ignore how the Bible was written.

God is the ultimate author, but that's not justification for ignoring differences between Moses and John.

This is like reading Ephesians 4 and Psalm 96:

Ephesians 4:7–8 (ESV)
"But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
Therefore it says,'When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,and he gave gifts to men.'"

And

Psalm 68:18 (ESV)
"You ascended on high,leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men,even among the rebellious, that the Lord God may dwell there."

And when someone says "hey did you know that they're saying different things? One says that he gave gifts to men, the other says that he received gifts among men and they're written in different contexts and mean different things."

You turn and say: "oh well, Paul was quoting psalms, but God is the ultimate author, so they must be saying the same thing."

Well sorry, that's not how the Bible works. That's just an excuse to ignore context.

 

[Vambram]

Well this doesn't make any sense, because if context didn't matter, then the Bible wouldn't switch from Hebrew and Aramaic over the Greek midway through. This is just an excuse to ignore how the Bible was written.

God is the ultimate author, but that's not justification for ignoring differences between Moses and John.

No one is really ignoring the differences of those 2 men. Nevertheless. The Lord God is still indeed the ultimate Author of His Scriptures and He does not contradict Himself.

 

[Job 33:6]

No one is really ignoring the differences of those 2 men. Nevertheless. The Lord God is still indeed the ultimate Author of His Scriptures and He does not contradict Himself.

Where is the contradiction? Nobody spoke about any contradictions. Does Ephesians 4 contradict Psalm 68? Nobody said that. The new testament authors quote the old testament. But they're saying two different things. Not contradictory. Just fulfilment.

 

[Vambram]

Where is the contradiction? Nobody spoke about any contradictions. Does Ephesians 4 contradict Psalm 68? Nobody said that.

Your interpretation of Scriptures relating to Creationism are fairly consistent. But, the YEC interpretation of Genesis and all the other Scriptures regarding Creation are also very consistent without contradiction as well.