What types of externalities invalidate the claim of "peaceful" in the context of method of protest?

[RDKirk]

It's been going on for longer than that, especially since WWII with it's large inflow of blacks wanting work in war industries. I can't seem to avoid mentioning that your point about racial tension between blacks and Latinos is one made by CRT.

The general condition is what it is. It's the interpretation of the condition and particularly proposal for a solution that is infeasible in CRT.

 

[RDKirk]

I think Obama being president sort of "masked" certain disgruntlements in certain communities that would've come to the forefront much earlier had the democratic president during that tenure been another old white guy.

<snip>

And there was an interesting piece written by John McWhorter (and I'll see if I can dig it up again), but he elaborated on how democrats making a huge fuss over making sure illegal immigrants get certain accommodations/considerations starting around 2010-2012 was a slap in the face to a lot of impoverished black communities (and other minority communities who are actual citizens) who've been wanting those things from Democrats for decades and gotten nothing more that lip service, but it wasn't quite as "noticed", because people were happy with the milestone of having a president who was a person of color.

Some of the things he cited was the fact that it's long been a grievance in the Black and (legal) Latino communities that they're disproportionately more likely to serve time for non-violent offenses which leads to families getting separated. And apart from some rhetoric, not a lot was done.

Yet, when it was happening to undocumented people at the border, a bunch of Democrats raced down there to cry out in front of the detention facility for a photo-op.

Democratic governors signing bills to give education and healthcare to undocumented people
Democratic mayors offering to make their cities "sanctuaries" to help undocumented people avoid apprehension, and putting them up in $400/night hotel rooms to boot.

McWhorter asserted in the piece that things like that explain some of the "surprising" increases Trump saw among certain minority voters (but that it wasn't actually so "surprising" when you consider the backdrop and different variables at play between the Obama presidency and the Trump presidency)

I believe how McWhorter worded it in a televised interview was that "People were still drunk on the Hope & Change elixir when it was happening during Obama's tenure, and didn't get the hangover until Trump's tenure"

It wasn't until Obama's tenure had completed that black people saw with certainty that nothing was going to be done for us. That was the "Wait...what?" moment.

You will find among many blacks, and young black men in particular, a strong realization that Obama had not done as much as he could for black people in general and black men in particular.

But as I've mentioned before, that's because Obama was and is a full disciple of Critical Theory. As applied to the US, Critical Theory makes villains out of men in general and black men only slightly less so. Put another way, white heterosexual men are the Big Boss villain and black heterosexual men are only at best his henchmen.

 

[RDKirk]

As for black American sentiment, I did not know that the majority support maintaining the number of immigrants we have in the country via tighter border controls. Given all the resentments you note, youd think they might be for trying to reduce the number of resident immigrants.

You misunderstood the sentence. The meaning of the sentence is that the majority of black people favor tighter border controls as a means of managing the flow of immigrants into the country.

 

[durangodawood]

You misunderstood the sentence. The meaning of the sentence is that the majority of black people favor tighter border controls as a means of managing the flow of immigrants into the country.

I just re read it three times. I did not misunderstand the meaning of the sentence. It's possible the writer did tho.

 

[RDKirk]

I just re read it three times. I did not misunderstand the meaning of the sentence. It's possible the writer did tho.

You did not use context to understand the meaning, however, and with consideration that ThatRobGuy is not a boob.

 

[durangodawood]

You did not use context to understand the meaning, however, and with consideration that ThatRobGuy is not a boob.

I disagree. Not about Rob. But that the sentence as written contradicts anything else in Robs entire post that I quoted from. I re read that too.

 

[BCP1928]

<snip>

It wasn't until Obama's tenure had completed that black people saw with certainty that nothing was going to be done for us. That was the "Wait...what?" moment.

You will find among many blacks, and young black men in particular, a strong realization that Obama had not done as much as he could for black people in general and black men in particular.

But as I've mentioned before, that's because Obama was and is a full disciple of Critical Theory. As applied to the US, Critical Theory makes villains out of men in general and black men only slightly less so. Put another way, white heterosexual men are the Big Boss villain and black heterosexual men are only at best his henchmen.

OK, but that was then and this is now and we still have the same problem. The culture of human work and life is changing. Men, particularly working class men of all colors, are having a hard time adapting to it and they are getting a confused response from those who are supposed to be their fellow human beings. Some become reactionary and are the perfect foil for CRT and its hostile dualisms. But they are never going to roll back the clock to breadwinner husband and trad-wife. The other part of this is work and how it's changing, how we value it and those who do it. That's a long story but the bottom line is that the working person of color (of any color) will not be better off under the Trump administration than they were under the Obama administration.

 

[Bradskii]

I'm perfectly willing to pay more for stuff if it means having better control over our borders and who gets in.

Well, personally speaking, the price doesn't concern me at all. I just don't want people who are working hard at minimum wages at a job that most people wouldn't contemplate, trying to keep a family together, being randomly detained and sent off to a country they left many years ago.

But that's just me.

 

[Bradskii]

Are you suggesting I wouldn’t have that information or doubting its accuracy?

Your post speaks for itself. I shouldn't have to explain anything to you.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well, personally speaking, the price doesn't concern me at all. I just don't want people who are working hard at minimum wages at a job that most people wouldn't contemplate, trying to keep a family together, being randomly detained and sent off to a country they left many years ago.

But that's just me.

...but if they came in through improper channels, then there's nothing "random" about their detainment and deportation.


If "Dave Smith" spent 4 years driving his car around without a proper registration or driver's license...

Would we say "I don't want to see Dave get randomly arrested while he's working at Burger King just trying to make ends meet...instead, we should focus on a 'pathway to licensure' so that his operation of that car becomes retroactively legitimate"?

 

[Yarddog]

When was the last time conservatives did a nation wide protest on anything that involved cities burning and store being looted? I know, "what about January 6th!" That was one incident that lasted 8 hours an only one person was killed. Now compare that to BLM, ANTIFA summer of love, CHAZ/CHOP, LA, ect..., what do you have?

Antifa always protests when right wing fascists are demonstrating, so you see Antifa and Fascists are there. BLM protest the killing of black lives by police.

The fact is that most of the protest were nonviolent, as statistics show. The same as J6 protesters. Most of them marched to the Capital and left as the insurrection started.
The thing is, most of the news is about the violence and not the peaceful protests.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I recall that stuff. But it doesnt really help me understand what if any difference there is between the Obama and Trump efforts on this front which might get people especially upset about ICE actions now.

One difference I do know is that Trump has been extraordinarily disgusting the way he regards these people. "Vermin". And "poisoning the blood of our country". And so on. I know Trump is not a Nazi of course. but that is distinctly Nazi talk there. Animalizing and medicalizing groups of people. Its vile.

As for black American sentiment, I did not know that the majority support maintaining the number of immigrants we have in the country via tighter border controls. Given all the resentments you note, youd think they might be for trying to reduce the number of resident immigrants.

For the last part, the polling indicates that some do, nearly 1 in 5 Black voters think that all illegal immigrants should be deported (and a very large percentage say "some" should be deported -- and it would've been nice if Ipsos would've gotten more specific about that, but alas, I didn't design their poll.


To circle back to your first part, there weren't any noteworthy differences between the approaches apart from the fact that Trump "said nasty stuff" before he did it. The approach in the middle part of Obama's tenure (logistics wise) was pretty much the same.

Operation Cross Check - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And while operation cross-check was the result of some protesting, it was nothing like what we're seeing with the current ICE raids.

 

[Bradskii]

...but if they came in through improper channels, then there's nothing "random" about their detainment and deportation.

It's entirely random. Just get ICE to turn up at a farm or a meat packers or a carpark or a garment factory or a diner and see what ID people have. Did they arrive legally? Are they in the process of applying for citizenship? Have they been here a week or thirty years? Do they have kids born in the US? Do they have any convictions? Are they doing low paid work that will be difficult to find a replacement? Will the people they are working for go out of business?

Of course it's random. Just like the people sacked by DOGE. There's no rhyme or reason at all. No thought going into who to detain, how to process them, where to hold them or where to send them. Are Guantanamo or Alcatraz still on the cards? Zero thought went into either of those either.

So what do you call decisions being made with absolutely no thought and no consideration of the outcomes? Well I'm going to call them completely random if that's OK with you. Actually, I'll call it entirely random whatever you think.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It's entirely random. Just get ICE to turn up at a farm or a meat packers or a carpark or a garment factory or a diner and see what ID people have. Did they arrive legally? Are they in the process of applying for citizenship? Have they been here a week or thirty years? Do they have kids born in the US? Do they have any convictions? Are they doing low paid work that will be difficult to find a replacement? Will the people they are working for go out of business?

Of course it's random. Just like the people sacked by DOGE. There's no rhyme or reason at all. No thought going into who to detain, how to process them, where to hold them or where to send them. Are Guantanamo or Alcatraz still on the cards? Zero thought went into either of those either.

So what do you call decisions being made with absolutely no thought and no consideration of the outcomes? Well I'm going to call them completely random if that's OK with you. Actually, I'll call it entirely random whatever you think.

In a previous thread (or maybe it was this one, they're blurring together at this point), I outlined some of the approaches DHS/ICE use in identifying businesses that have larger number of illegal immigrants working there.

One of the more common ones are if they see SSN/Identities (that have been reported as compromised) being used in high concentrations. The example I cited was a plant where nearly a quarter of the shop floor employees were working under SSN/Identities that had been reported stolen in completely different states. (that particular case ended up being traced back to a sketchy staffing agency)

Identity theft is pretty common for that purpose as a means to pass the E-verify system.

The Social Security Administration (SSA) has previously estimated that 700,000 illegal immigrants were using stolen identities and Social Security numbers (SSNs) in 2010.

In 2015, that estimate was even higher:
According to a recent Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration audit, the labor market includes 1.4 million employed illegal aliens who in 2015 used falsified or stolen Social Security numbers to get hired.


If you have a situation where "Hey, we have these 100 SSNs that were reported stolen in OH, PA, NY 2 years ago...but according to company tax filings, evidently 30 of them are reporting income from a warehouse operation 20 miles outside of El Paso, TX despite still reporting incomes from their home states -- sounds fishy"

It's not hard to put 2 & 2 together in situations like that.

 

[durangodawood]

For the last part, the polling indicates that some do, nearly 1 in 5 Black voters think that all illegal immigrants should be deported (and a very large percentage say "some" should be deported -- and it would've been nice if Ipsos would've gotten more specific about that, but alas, I didn't design their poll.

Heck I think "some" should be deported.

To circle back to your first part, there weren't any noteworthy differences between the approaches apart from the fact that Trump "said nasty stuff" before he did it. The approach in the middle part of Obama's tenure (logistics wise) was pretty much the same.

Operation Cross Check - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And while operation cross-check was the result of some protesting, it was nothing like what we're seeing with the current ICE raids.

From your source re The Obama era effort:

"ICE continues to defend the operation, emphasizing that the majority of those arrested have significant criminal records and are not merely being targeted for minor immigration violations."

Plus the scale looks totally different than what currently being attempted.

 

[Bradskii]

If you have a situation where "Hey, we have these 100 SSNs that were reported stolen in OH, PA, NY 2 years ago...but according to company tax filings, evidently 30 of them are reporting income from a warehouse operation 20 miles outside of El Paso...

You should write fantasy for a living.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You should write fantasy for a living.

Did you not see the article I posted in the other thread a few days back?, that's an actual real-world situation that happened at a Sausage packing plant just outside of Dallas.

 

[Bradskii]

Did you not see the article I posted in the other thread a few days back?, that's an actual real-world situation that happened at a Sausage packing plant just outside of Dallas.

You must have missed the last memo:

https://apnews.com/article/trump-immigration-arrests-pause-hotels-restaurants-farms-aa8f503a8d6d797021a70601e6a1d918

Apparently Trump isn't as worried as you are about social security numbers if you work as a meat packer or hotel worker or fruit picker or you clean dishes and peel potatoes in your local diner. Isn't that odd...

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You must have missed the last memo:

https://apnews.com/article/trump-immigration-arrests-pause-hotels-restaurants-farms-aa8f503a8d6d797021a70601e6a1d918

Apparently Trump isn't as worried as you are about social security numbers if you work as a meat packer or hotel worker or fruit picker or you clean dishes and peel potatoes in your local diner. Isn't that odd...

And I already replied to you earlier saying I disagreed with his decision to "exempt" certain industries out of "convenience"

 

[Bradskii]

And I already replied to you earlier saying I disagreed with his decision to "exempt" certain industries out of "convenience"

Be sure to let him know. But don't worry, wait a day or two and he'll change it again.