If forever punishment is true and if all dead babies go to Heaven...

[Beth77]

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.

Yes, entirely ignore the scriptures above about God getting what he wants and cherry pick the scriptures that prove that Jesus fails and ends up torturing them forever.

 

[NextLevel]

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.

I think that one may reasonably hope that all men are saved; but Sacred Scripture does not teach that all people will be saved in my opinion. That view appears to be inconsistent with the numerous passages in the New Testament that warn about the possibility of damnation.

Regardless, if you are correct then none of us have anything to worry about, no? Party on . . .

It seems that your view is the same as Hans Urs von Balasar, if I am not mistaken?

Also, is it your view that God desires that people do things like murder, and commit adultery and robbery? These seem to be clear instances to me of things that God does not desire, but he allow them to occur.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Falls somewhat short of Biblical demonstration of the error in the following:

Keeping in mind that we are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
born with the guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-14),
which is removed only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin (Ro 3:25).

Why do you not quote any scripture? You expect people to take your word for it that those scriptures say what you claim they saw? Let's actually take a look at them and see if they say what you claim.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Where does this say that someone is guilty of sin from birth? Nowhere. What it means is that we have a natural tendency to sin, which everyone knows, but no one is guilty of sin before they ever sin. That's complete nonsense.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Where does this say that someone is guilty of sin from birth? Nowhere. All passages like this mean is that everyone will eventually sin if they live long enough to do so. You are reading things into scripture that are not there.

Also, Paul said that he was not dead in sins until he knew what sin was.

Romans 7:9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Paul himself would not agree with Calvinists when they would try to say he was dead in sins from birth.

 

[RDKirk]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

By definition, a "ridiculous question" demonstrates nothing.

Except, perhaps, the foolishness of the person proposing it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

My point was this: Just as your beliefs are not shaken by the fact that others view them as nonsense, my beliefs are also not shaken by the fact that you view them as nonsense.

I agree that Christians should have a better understanding of what is complete nonsense. I note that a majority of Christians throughout history have believed in infant baptism. What conclusion can you draw from the fact that Christians have a better understanding and a majority of Christians have believed in infant baptism?

I was talking about what SHOULD be the case. It's like we are not even speaking the same language here.

I believe that God desires all people to be saved, just as Sacred Scripture states.

So do I, but he makes man responsible to choose whether to repent or not. God does not force anyone to do anything.

Personally I hold a more of a "Molinistic" view here (although I cannot say that it is correct). I suspect that God "previews" how children would have responded to grace if they had lived to be an adult, and bases his decision on how they would have responded if given the opportunity to accept the gospel.

Or perhaps it could be that God orders the world in a way such that those people who would have never accepted the gospel are not given an opportunity to hear it in the first place.

But that is conjecture. I simply do not know what happens to infants because it has not been revealed to us.

I agree. They have done nothing to make them guilty. But their parents may have (see below).

No one is guilty of anyone else's sin but their own.

Well, there might be a reason.

Let's take a look at 2 Samuel 12.

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house.​

​

And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died.​

​

What did the child do to cause him to be afflicted by God?

That was a punishment against David for his sin. Nowhere does it say that the child was guilty of anything. I believe the child went to heaven afterwards. Or, I guess at that time it would've been to the place that Jesus called "Abraham's bosom" or "Abraham's side" (Luke 16:22).

 

[biblelesson]

Here is the scripture where babies absolutely go to heaven:

Luke 18:15-16
15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[biblelesson]

Right. Paul describes it as a separation from the Lord's presence

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So, we can see here that Paul describes the punishment as being separated from "the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". I believe the torment they experience is not physical torture or anything like that, but rather feelings of sorrow and regret over rejecting the Lord and what He offered to them and missing out on everything He has for those who accept Him.

Here are the scriptures that explains hell,

Romans 9:29 KJV
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed (Jesus), we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Genesis 19:24 KJV
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Fire and brimstone rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah, and that event is a “type” and/or identify the same fire that hell is comprised of.

Psalms 11:6 KJV,
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.”

Revelation 21:8 KJV
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Revelation 14:10 KJV
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Brimstone is sulfur. Google what happened when brimstone mix with fire?

Earth's core contain vast amounts of sulphur - volcanos erupt due to sulfur reaching very high temperatures.

There are planets in the solar system full of sulfur and their surface continue to burn. This solar system is darkness - outer darkness.

Now just think where might be the outer darkness the Bible speaks about?

Matthew 25:30 KJV​

“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[Clare73]

Here is the scripture where babies absolutely go to heaven:

Luke 18:15-16
15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

It's not about babies, it's about disposition.

Note the "of such". . .the total dependence, full trust, frank openness, complete sincerity of children (Mt 18:3, 19:14, Mk 10:15), received as a gift; it cannot be achieved by human effort. It may be entered only by those who know they are helpless, without claim or merit.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Wrong. Why do you think that? I'm not following your logic here. Scripture teaches that there will be eternal torment for unbelievers, so why deny it? Coming up with these ridiculous scenarios can't change what scripture teaches.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire which was originally "prepared for the devil and his angels". Clearly, the devil will be eternally tormented there, so why would that not be the case for unbelievers as well?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice in Matthew 25:46 that Jesus said unbelievers will depart from Him "into the eternal fire" where they will "go away to eternal punishment". If they were going to just cease to exist, that would not be described as "eternal punishment" in "eternal fire". Unbelievers already think that they will cease to exist when they die and they accept that and are fine with that, so being annihilated would not be a punishment for them.

Maybe you don't need to change scripture , you just need to read it through the lens of Jesus and what he did on the cross.
Why do you think that all the scripture that talks of God saving all and reconciling all to himself are trumped by what you think are eternal hell passages? Why not say wrong to eternal torture because God has said "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess," Or Col 1:19-22" God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven by Jesus" .
Why do these verses and many more that talk about God loving his whole creation and having a plan to redeem it all in Jesus, take a back seat to what you think is eternal hell?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Here are the scriptures that explains hell,

Romans 9:29 KJV
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed (Jesus), we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Genesis 19:24 KJV
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Fire and brimstone rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah, and that event is a “type” and/or identify the same fire that hell is comprised of.

Psalms 11:6 KJV,
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.”

Revelation 21:8 KJV
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Revelation 14:10 KJV
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Brimstone is sulfur. Google what happened when brimstone mix with fire?

Earth's core contain vast amounts of sulphur - volcanos erupt due to sulfur reaching very high temperatures.

There are planets in the solar system full of sulfur and their surface continue to burn. This solar system is darkness - outer darkness.

Now just think where might be the outer darkness the Bible speaks about?

Matthew 25:30 KJV​

“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

You do know scripture says God will restore Sodom and Gomorrah-Ez 16: God says he will restore Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You seem to be an expert on what other people believe and do not believe.

Why not ask them what they believe instead of telling them what they believe?

Wrong. . .

You simply do not believe Jesus in Mt 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment. . ."

And that unbelief is above our pay grade here at the Forum.

You should say don't believe in " your interpretation of Mt 25:46" if you study this in the original Greek you get a different, or correct interpretation. Its aionion kolasis, which is kolasis, which is derived from a arborist term to prune or lop off that which is keeping a plant from fruiting, and aionios which means pertaining to the age. Gods punishments are for restoration and correction not punitive.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

That's a great question. Why have offspring who might be tortured endlessly forever and ever?

The doctrine of eternal torment is not only unbiblical but wildly illogical.

If forever punishment is true then why wouldn't a loving parent kill their infant child in order to ensure that they go to Heaven?

I have come to believe that the knowledge that Jesus will succeed in persuading ALL beings who ever lived to follow him and thus be saved is knowledge that must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. I believe there is a spiritual blindness in the world that prevents even many Christians from understanding this basic but significant truth.

I think its religion and making the Bible into an idol are to blame for most of the ignorance. Most preaching in the West is fear based and not Love (God) based, everyone knows they are going to die, so all you have to do is convince them that they are going to an eternal hell if they don't jump through whatever hoops the building people say, and once convinced most people will do anything to not go to eternal hell.
Once you have had an experience with the God/Jesus of scripture you know his love and know that the idea that God would torture one of his creation for all eternity is nonsense. This is the garbage that the Western Church has been spreading for 1500 years, once they got away from the original Greek and used a bad Latin translation of scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Maybe you don't need to change scripture , you just need to read it through the lens of Jesus and what he did on the cross.
Why do you think that all the scripture that talks of God saving all and reconciling all to himself are trumped by what you think are eternal hell passages? Why not say wrong to eternal torture because God has said "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess," Or Col 1:19-22" God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven by Jesus" .
Why do these verses and many more that talk about God loving his whole creation and having a plan to redeem it all in Jesus, take a back seat to what you think is eternal hell?

Scripture does not teach universal salvation. Nowhere does it indicate that anyone who is unsaved and dies can still be saved some time after they die.

 

[Clare73]

You should say don't believe in " your interpretation of Mt 25:46" if you study this in the original Greek you get a different, or correct interpretation. Its aionion kolasis, which is kolasis, which is derived from a arborist term to prune or lop off that which is keeping a plant from fruiting, and aionios which means pertaining to the age. Gods punishments are for restoration and correction not punitive.

It's not "corrective" for that which is lopped off, it's death and destruction.

 

[biblelesson]

It's not about babies, it's about disposition.

Note the "of such". . .the total dependence, full trust, frank openness, complete sincerity of children (Mt 18:3, 19:14, Mk 10:15), received as a gift; it cannot be achieved by human effort. It may be entered only by those who know they are helpless, without claim or merit.

Hi Clare73, yes, the verse is about total dependence, full trust, and the rest that you have stated.

These attributes first belong to babies/children, because all children have this spirit naturally without effort. The kingdom of heaven belong to these little ones, and I note “of such” is the kingdom of heaven - Jesus is saying to gain the kingdom of heaven, or to enter the kingdom of heaven, our spirit must be the same as these little ones.

And thank you for reminding us we cannot do this through our human effort. Only by the Holy Spirit are we able, Who gives us the Fruit of the Spirit.

 

[biblelesson]

God has already declared them guilty due to their great sin against God, but you are right, Gods said he will restore Sodom and Samaria, to include Jerusalem. Gomorrah is not mentioned, but if I missed that in Ezekiel let me know.

The restoration takes place during the Thousand year millennium.
The temple that’s built in Ezekiel and the sacrifices established in the temple during the millennium is what will bring about restoration for Jerusalem, Sodom, and Samaria. Note also the land is restored and each tribe is given back their portion.

 

[biblelesson]

You do know scripture says God will restore Sodom and Gomorrah-Ez 16: God says he will restore Sodom and Gomorrah.

God has already declared them guilty due to their great sin against God, but you are right, Gods said he will restore Sodom and Samaria, to include Jerusalem. Gomorrah is not mentioned, but if I missed that in Ezekiel let me know.

The restoration takes place during the Thousand year millennium.
The temple that’s built in Ezekiel and the sacrifices established in the temple during the millennium is what will bring about restoration for Jerusalem, Sodom, and Samaria. Note also the land is restored and each tribe is given back their portion.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God has already declared them guilty due to their great sin against God, but you are right, Gods said he will restore Sodom and Samaria, to include Jerusalem. Gomorrah is not mentioned, but if I missed that in Ezekiel let me know.

The restoration takes place during the Thousand year millennium.
The temple that’s built in Ezekiel and the sacrifices established in the temple during the millennium is what will bring about restoration for Jerusalem, Sodom, and Samaria. Note also the land is restored and each tribe is given back their portion.

Do you really think that the sacrifices will start again? To me that would make no sense, Jesus will be physically ruling, the sacrifices would be an insult to what Jesus has done.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It's not "corrective" for that which is lopped off, it's death and destruction.

What is lopped off is death and destruction so that man can live, Gods wrath is against that which is destroying his beloved creation not the very other came to save from our delusion. God /Jesus sacrificed themselves for us , to reconcile each and every one, He is God we get no say in the matter,John 4:42 “Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world “ that is a declaration not a possibility. I do not see the words, possibly savior unless your will is stronger than Gods, God as we are taught from Jesus is our Heavenly Father and we are his children, we have no say in the matter he created us, but so many people want to be God themselves and think that man’s will is stronger than Gods.

 

[Clare73]

What is lopped off is death and destruction so that man can live, Gods wrath is against that which is destroying his beloved creation not the very other came to save from our delusion. God /Jesus sacrificed themselves for us , to reconcile each and every one, He is God we get no say in the matter,John 4:42 “Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world “ that is a declaration not a possibility. I do not see the words, possibly savior unless your will is stronger than Gods, God as we are taught from Jesus is our Heavenly Father and we are his children, we have no say in the matter he created us, but so many people want to be God themselves and think that man’s will is stronger than Gods.

Jesus is the only one who spoke of hell.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed then with two hands to go into hell (gehenna), where the fire never goes out." (Mk 9:43)

Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already. (Jn 3:18)

You either believe him, or you don't.