If forever punishment is true and if all dead babies go to Heaven...

[Strong in Him]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

A loving parent wouldn't dream of killing their child.
A child who is so young that they are unable to choose to rebel against, and reject, God, goes to heaven if they die.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

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​

The punishment is not like some type of being whipped for all eternity. The punishment is that the unbeliever remains a sinner for all eternity and is separated from The Life of God and being able to enjoy life away from the sin curse Adam brought into the world.

Right. Paul describes it as a separation from the Lord's presence.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So, we can see here that Paul describes the punishment as being separated from "the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". I believe the torment they experience is not physical torture or anything like that, but rather feelings of sorrow and regret over rejecting the Lord and what He offered to them and missing out on everything He has for those who accept Him.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not a conundrum for the denominations that believe in infant baptism.

Such a belief is complete nonsense. As if the eternal destiny of a child is up to the child's parents? Which would then mean you have to be lucky enough to have parents who have you baptized as an infant? How can one's eternal destiny be decided in such a way? It can't be.

 

[NextLevel]

Such a belief is complete nonsense.

Many people think that Christianity is complete nonsense. Does that affect your belief in Christianity?

As if the eternal destiny of a child is up to the child's parents? Which would then mean you have to be lucky enough to have parents who have you baptized as an infant?

Everyone who is saved is fortunate. Salvation is a gift. None of us deserve it. So anyone who is saved is "lucky" in a sense.

How can one's eternal destiny be decided in such a way? It can't be.

I do not believe that non-baptized children are damned. I do not know what happens to them (or to other people such as the mentally ill, or adults who die without having had the gospel preached to them). I have a hope that they will be saved through the merits won by our Lord by his sacrifice on the cross.

 

[Clare73]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

Wrong. . .

You simply do not believe Jesus in Mt 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment. . ."

And that unbelief is above our pay grade here at the Forum.

 

[NextLevel]

Wrong. . .

You simply do not believe Jesus in Mt 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment. . ."

And that unbelief is above our pay grade here at the Forum.

You seem to be an expert on what other people believe and do not believe.

Why not ask them what they believe instead of telling them what they believe?

 

[Clare73]

I am not so sure that one needs to go as far as this to prove we have a righteous and loving Father but, there you have it, the pushback on the doctrine of original sin by Augustine. I believe if we simply exercise just a bit of common sense plus, taking into consideration God's nature and character, we can safely conclude that He would not damn the innocent.

No one is innocent. . .all those born of Adam are guilty of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17),
by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
just as all those born of Christ are righteous with the righteousness of Christ imputed to them (2 Co 5:21, Ro 5:18-19),
by spiritual re-birth, sons of God (Jn 1:13).

 

[Dan Perez]

And I should have wiiten a couple days ago of Rom 9:11

For ( the children ) not yet having been BORN , neither having PRACTISED , anything Good or Bad , in order that the

Purpoe of God according to ELECTION might remain , not from Works But from the One callig ,

dan p

 

[Der Alte]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?
Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?
These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

God would not, will not punish infants, small children, the mentally handicapped, etc. BUT I believe God will do what He said He would.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(...)​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

​

Romans 1:24​

(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​

Romans 1:26​

(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

Romans 1:28​

(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "Never" He does not mean someday by and by.

 

[PloverWing]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

These are hypothetical questions to prove a point. Here's a related question that's much less hypothetical: Could a loving, morally responsible person who believes in eternal torment justify choosing to have children at all?

 

[Beth77]

Could a loving, morally responsible person who believes in eternal torment justify choosing to have children at all?

That's a great question. Why have offspring who might be tortured endlessly forever and ever?

The doctrine of eternal torment is not only unbiblical but wildly illogical.

If forever punishment is true then why wouldn't a loving parent kill their infant child in order to ensure that they go to Heaven?

I have come to believe that the knowledge that Jesus will succeed in persuading ALL beings who ever lived to follow him and thus be saved is knowledge that must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. I believe there is a spiritual blindness in the world that prevents even many Christians from understanding this basic but significant truth.

 

[Clare73]

God would not, will not punish infants, small children, the mentally handicapped, etc. BUT I believe God will do what He said He would.

Keeping in mind that we are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
born with the guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-14),
which is removed only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin (Ro 3:25).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Many people think that Christianity is complete nonsense. Does that affect your belief in Christianity?

No. But, as Christians, I think we should have a much better understanding of what is complete nonsense than non-Christians do, so I'm not really seeing your point here.

Everyone who is saved is fortunate. Salvation is a gift. None of us deserve it. So anyone who is saved is "lucky" in a sense.

God is love. He's not obligated to make salvation available for anyone, but a God who is love (1 John 4:8) would not just offer or give salvation to some without offering salvation to all people. Otherwise, you turn Him into a God who is love and hate (or indifference).

I do not believe that non-baptized children are damned. I do not know what happens to them (or to other people such as the mentally ill, or adults who die without having had the gospel preached to them). I have a hope that they will be saved through the merits won by our Lord by his sacrifice on the cross.

What have they done that would make them guilty and be sent to hell? Nothing. So, a God who is love sending someone to hell for no reason would be contradictory.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Keeping in mind that we are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
born with the guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-14),
which is removed only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin (Ro 3:25).

No one is born guilty. That's complete nonsense. Someone who has just been born has not done anything to be guilty of. Paul said that he did not become dead in his sins until he became aware of his sin by way of the law.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That's a great question. Why have offspring who might be tortured endlessly forever and ever?

The doctrine of eternal torment is not only unbiblical but wildly illogical.

Why do you say that? Do you find eternal life to be wildly illogical, also?

If forever punishment is true then why wouldn't a loving parent kill their infant child in order to ensure that they go to Heaven?

I have come to believe that the knowledge that Jesus will succeed in persuading ALL beings who ever lived to follow him and thus be saved is knowledge that must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. I believe there is a spiritual blindness in the world that prevents even many Christians from understanding this basic but significant truth.

You are a universalist? Scripture never teaches such a thing. Show me where scripture teaches that anyone who is cast into the lake of fire ever gets the opportunity to repent.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And I should have wiiten a couple days ago of Rom 9:11

For ( the children ) not yet having been BORN , neither having PRACTISED , anything Good or Bad , in order that the

Purpoe of God according to ELECTION might remain , not from Works But from the One callig ,

dan p

That's not talking about individual election to salvation.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The Old Testament scripture Paul is referencing here shows that he was talking about the election of Israel to be the nation through which salvation would come.

Genesis 25:21 Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was childless. The Lord answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. 22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord. 23 The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”

 

[Clare73]

No one is born guilty. That's complete nonsense.

Falls somewhat short of Biblical demonstration of the error in the following:

Keeping in mind that we are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
born with the guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-14),
which is removed only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin (Ro 3:25).

 

[NextLevel]

No. But, as Christians, I think we should have a much better understanding of what is complete nonsense than non-Christians do, so I'm not really seeing your point here.

My point was this: Just as your beliefs are not shaken by the fact that others view them as nonsense, my beliefs are also not shaken by the fact that you view them as nonsense.

I agree that Christians should have a better understanding of what is complete nonsense. I note that a majority of Christians throughout history have believed in infant baptism. What conclusion can you draw from the fact that Christians have a better understanding and a majority of Christians have believed in infant baptism?

God is love. He's not obligated to make salvation available for anyone, but a God who is love (1 John 4:8) would not just offer or give salvation to some without offering salvation to all people. Otherwise, you turn Him into a God who is love and hate (or indifference).

I believe that God desires all people to be saved, just as Sacred Scripture states.

Personally I hold a more of a "Molinistic" view here (although I cannot say that it is correct). I suspect that God "previews" how children would have responded to grace if they had lived to be an adult, and bases his decision on how they would have responded if given the opportunity to accept the gospel.

Or perhaps it could be that God orders the world in a way such that those people who would have never accepted the gospel are not given an opportunity to hear it in the first place.

But that is conjecture. I simply do not know what happens to infants because it has not been revealed to us.

What have they done that would make them guilty and be sent to hell? Nothing.

I agree. They have done nothing to make them guilty. But their parents may have (see below).

So, a God who is love sending someone to hell for no reason would be contradictory.

Well, there might be a reason.

Let's take a look at 2 Samuel 12.

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house.​

​

And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died.​

​

What did the child do to cause him to be afflicted by God?

 

[Beth77]

I believe that God desires all people to be saved, just as Sacred Scripture states.

Not only that but in Isaiah God says that he gets everything he wants. However, most Christians reject God's word and believe that God is too incompetent to get what he wants and that Jesus is a failure and that the Gates of Hell do in fact prevail!

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

 

[NextLevel]

Not only that but in Isaiah God says that he gets everything he wants. However, most Christians reject God's word and believe that God is too incompetent to get what he wants and that Jesus is a failure and that the Gates of Hell do in fact prevail!

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.