Pastor John MacArthur

[d taylor]

I never said nor implied anything about walking an aisle or anything like that. The fact that Jesus spoke commands, and the fact that whoever hopes in Him will follow His commands is inherent in the gospel message. But we aren't talking about subsequent actions to believing, are we? We're talking about assurance, which is essentially a feeling, isn't it? If you FEEL assured, you have assurance, isn't this correct? If Hodges teaches that assurance is the essence of saving faith, and that you aren't born again unless you feel assured of peace with God, then isn't he in reality saying that you aren't born of God until you FEEL born of God? If this is what he is teaching, then it is false doctrine and a hindrance to the faith of new Christians.

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So show me where feeling are found in this verse. There is no might have eternal life, it is very definitive promise in this verse. So if a person says i have believed in Jesus, how can they say, i am not assured i have eternal life. Or i do not feel assured that i have eternal life.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

People who are taught properly about assurance do not feel assurance. They believe what Jesus states and know they have life. A person either believes God promise or they do not. So either they have believed in Jesus or they have not there is no middle ground.

Now there are people in this day and age who deal with ocd or some type of mental illness that can cause doubt but Hodges disciple, Bob Wilkin address this here. How Can People With Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

That is why i asked you in another post can a person believe in something and not know they believed.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I disagree with you, I think you and Hodges are in error. Knowing that some people will respond in pretense doesn't justify false doctrine that hinders true Christians. Paul wrote "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. And in context, it obviously means sincerely, not just parroting words. So if Jesus is confessed as Lord by someone, they should be regarded as a brother in Christ. If you throw a proverbial rock at someone because you don't think they have assurance (however you define it), you're going contrary to what Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares.

As Calvin stated, while its true we are saved by grace alone thru faith alone, that faith that saves us will not be alone, but will have some fruit

 

[YeshuaFan]

Not sure what your point is, except that there are antinomians who need to read James. Knowing some will profess Christ in pretense doesn't justify false doctrine that hinders true Christians.

My point was that we can get in trouble by living in either extreme position here on salvation, as one makes a mere profession means saved, without any corresponding fruit, while other makes us never being sure of salvation, as we do not know if Jesus has been made :lord over all" yet

 

[YeshuaFan]

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So show me where feeling are found in this verse. There is no might have eternal life, it is very definitive promise in this verse. So if a person says i have believed in Jesus, how can they say, i am not assured i have eternal life. Or i do not feel assured that i have eternal life.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

People who are taught properly about assurance do not feel assurance. They believe what Jesus states and know they have life. A person either believes God promise or they do not. So either they have believed in Jesus or they have not there is no middle ground.

Now there are people in this day and age who deal with ocd or some type of mental illness that can cause doubt but Hodges disciple, Bob Wilkin address this here. How Can People With Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

That is why i asked you in another post can a person believe in something and not know they believed.

Think the big issue in this discussion is when we stray off into extremes of either Hodge or MacArthur take on salvation, as Hodgh can give someone a false assurance, while Lds can lead one saved to have little assurance

 

[d taylor]

Think the big issue in this discussion is when we stray off into extremes of either Hodge or MacArthur take on salvation, as Hodgh can give someone a false assurance, while Lds can lead one saved to have little assurance

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If a person believes in Jesus there is no false assurance. So Hodges is not an extreme and is not leading people into a false assurance. If Hodges is extreme, then Jesus is extreme.

There is not one ounce of falseness in the verse below, just truth.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

[YeshuaFan]

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If a person believes in Jesus there is no false assurance. So Hodges is not an extreme and is not leading people into a false assurance. If Hodges is extreme, then Jesus is extreme.

There is not one ounce of falseness in the verse below, just truth.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Yet many think that by coming forward or doing an alter call one time are now set for Heaven, yet they have had no change if lifestyle nor any fruit of repentence to show off

 

[d taylor]

Yet many think that by coming forward or doing an alter call one time are now set for Heaven, yet they have had no change if lifestyle nor any fruit of repentence to show off

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If you believe that is what Zane Hodges is teaching alter calls, then you have misunderstood his teachings. True Zane preaches against the repentance as a condition, belief. The only condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is belief in Jesus, The Gospel of John states belief in Jesus many, many, many times.

 

[YeshuaFan]

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If you believe that is what Zane Hodges is teaching alter calls, then you have misunderstood his teachings. True Zane preaches against the repentance as a condition, belief. The only condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is belief in Jesus, The Gospel of John states belief in Jesus many, many, many times.

Even apostle peter had to repent

 

[d taylor]

Even apostle peter had to repent

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He was already a born again child of God, his repentance was to be restored back into fellowship with God.

 

[St_Worm2]

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He was already a born again child of God, his repentance was to be restored back into fellowship with God.

Hello D Taylor, that's an interesting thought, but I'm confused. If confession/repentance was not a part of establishing his relationship/fellowship with the living God in the first place (when he was saved and went from sinner to saint), why is it required to re-establish full fellowship with the Lord after he sinned again as a believer?

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I have a number of things that I'd like to ask you about from earlier in the thread, but since you just posted the one above, I thought that I'd start there. BTW, how do you/we know that the Apostle Peter was already a "born again" believer on the night that he lied (by saying that he did not know Him, the Lord Jesus, that is)?

 

[tdidymas]

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So show me where feeling are found in this verse. There is no might have eternal life, it is very definitive promise in this verse. So if a person says i have believed in Jesus, how can they say, i am not assured i have eternal life. Or i do not feel assured that i have eternal life.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

People who are taught properly about assurance do not feel assurance. They believe what Jesus states and know they have life. A person either believes God promise or they do not. So either they have believed in Jesus or they have not there is no middle ground.

Now there are people in this day and age who deal with ocd or some type of mental illness that can cause doubt but Hodges disciple, Bob Wilkin address this here. How Can People With Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

That is why i asked you in another post can a person believe in something and not know they believed.

What verse?? I thought we were talking about the teaching of Hodges. This is why I said before, and again in the last post, that "assurance" the way Hodges is describing it is the "essence of saving faith" - which means that a person FEELS that he is saved. This is what Biblical assurance is - that a person has heart-felt PEACE that comes from God. This is expressly identified as "sabbath rest" (for God's people) by the writer of Hebrews, as "peace not as the world gives" by Jesus, and Peter says "make certain of your calling" - this all has to do with an assurance within yourself.

And then, again in your last statement you are equating belief with assurance, the same way Hodges does. It cannot be the same thing, since Hodges clearly states that whoever doesn't have assurance is not born again! This is a ludicrous idea, since John clearly states, "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." Notice it doesn't say (nor imply) "whoever has assurance..." It says "everyone who believes" - which means that if a person believes enough to repent and obey the gospel, they have already been born of God, no matter what level of doubt they have. There are many statements in the NT about encouraging people to have confidence in the gospel and the work of Christ. Such things are written to the churches.

It is not only unwise, but also inconsiderate to tell someone they aren't born of God. Jesus spoke to the crowds about "your Father in heaven," knowing that there were many who did not believe in Him. The apostle John in 1 John calls everyone who professes Christ a "brother," even those who "walk in darkness." Therefore, to preach a doctrine that unless you have assurance you aren't born again is unbiblical and heresy.

I'm about done here, but if you really want to debate the issue, then you need to start quoting scripture and exegeting what it means in the context. I'm saying that Hodges is wrong, that assurance does not equal faith.

 

[tdidymas]

My point was that we can get in trouble by living in either extreme position here on salvation, as one makes a mere profession means saved, without any corresponding fruit, while other makes us never being sure of salvation, as we do not know if Jesus has been made :lord over all" yet

I was debating with the other poster about the teaching of Hodges which he posted a link. Hodges stated clearly that anyone not having assurance is not born again, which I vehemently disagree with. I agree that "fruit" (deeds) show what kind of "tree" we are.

 

[d taylor]

What verse?? I thought we were talking about the teaching of Hodges. This is why I said before, and again in the last post, that "assurance" the way Hodges is describing it is the "essence of saving faith" - which means that a person FEELS that he is saved. This is what Biblical assurance is - that a person has heart-felt PEACE that comes from God. This is expressly identified as "sabbath rest" (for God's people) by the writer of Hebrews, as "peace not as the world gives" by Jesus, and Peter says "make certain of your calling" - this all has to do with an assurance within yourself.

And then, again in your last statement you are equating belief with assurance, the same way Hodges does. It cannot be the same thing, since Hodges clearly states that whoever doesn't have assurance is not born again! This is a ludicrous idea, since John clearly states, "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." Notice it doesn't say (nor imply) "whoever has assurance..." It says "everyone who believes" - which means that if a person believes enough to repent and obey the gospel, they have already been born of God, no matter what level of doubt they have. There are many statements in the NT about encouraging people to have confidence in the gospel and the work of Christ. Such things are written to the churches.

It is not only unwise, but also inconsiderate to tell someone they aren't born of God. Jesus spoke to the crowds about "your Father in heaven," knowing that there were many who did not believe in Him. The apostle John in 1 John calls everyone who professes Christ a "brother," even those who "walk in darkness." Therefore, to preach a doctrine that unless you have assurance you aren't born again is unbiblical and heresy.

I'm about done here, but if you really want to debate the issue, then you need to start quoting scripture and exegeting what it means in the context. I'm saying that Hodges is wrong, that assurance does not equal faith.

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What verse, well i think that says just about all you need to say. Maybe you have never read The Gospel of John and do not know verses from that book when posted.

 

[d taylor]

Hello D Taylor, that's an interesting thought, but I'm confused. If confession/repentance was not a part of establishing his relationship/fellowship with the living God in the first place (when he was saved and went from sinner to saint), why is it required to re-establish full fellowship with the Lord after he sinned again as a believer?

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I have a number of things that I'd like to ask you about from earlier in the thread, but since you just posted the one above, I thought that I'd start there. BTW, how do you/we know that the Apostle Peter was already a "born again" believer on the night that he lied (by saying that he did not know Him, the Lord Jesus, that is)?

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Because belief in Jesus is the only condition God has given to to receive Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

Peter became a born again child of God here.
One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone).

Repentance is never stated as giving a person eternal life. Repentance is both for believers and unbelievers.

If an unbeliever is doing something sinful and they repent they may avoid a punishment from God or the natural harmful consequences of sin.

In a way it is the same for a believer except for one big difference the believer is in the family of God (where as the unbeliever is not). So like the example of the prodigal son (who is an example of a believer), who left God's family to seek worldly pleasure to return back or to restored back into family fellowship. the prodigal son had to repent and return to the family leaving the worldly ways behind him. So what happen The Father (God) welcomed His son with open arms and had a big feast.

Now some children do not repent and will suffer earthly judgment from God their Father and may experience punishment from God or even lose their earthly life ( Ananias, with Sapphira, he drunk believers at the Lords Supper) For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

Read about the Corinthians repentance in 2 Corinthians 7

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The repentance here is addressed to believers stating to them if they repent. They will be saved from God's punishment (death) that is God will not take their earthly life.

 

[tdidymas]

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What verse, well i think that says just about all you need to say. Maybe you have never read The Gospel of John and do not know verses from that book when posted.

What kind of response is this? You're the one who said "that verse." I'm not going to argue with you, as it seems like all you want to do is evade the issue and "win" in your mind, so I'm done here.

 

[YeshuaFan]

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Because belief in Jesus is the only condition God has given to to receive Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

Peter became a born again child of God here.
One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone).

Repentance is never stated as giving a person eternal life. Repentance is both for believers and unbelievers.

If an unbeliever is doing something sinful and they repent they may avoid a punishment from God or the natural harmful consequences of sin.

In a way it is the same for a believer except for one big difference the believer is in the family of God (where as the unbeliever is not). So like the example of the prodigal son (who is an example of a believer), who left God's family to seek worldly pleasure to return back or to restored back into family fellowship. the prodigal son had to repent and return to the family leaving the worldly ways behind him. So what happen The Father (God) welcomed His son with open arms and had a big feast.

Now some children do not repent and will suffer earthly judgment from God their Father and may experience punishment from God or even lose their earthly life ( Ananias, with Sapphira, he drunk believers at the Lords Supper) For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

Read about the Corinthians repentance in 2 Corinthians 7

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The repentance here is addressed to believers stating to them if they repent. They will be saved from God's punishment (death) that is God will not take their earthly life.

True salvation though will mean to some degree a changed lifestyle, some fruit shall evidence that profession of being now saved can become a confession of faith that saved

 

[YeshuaFan]

I was debating with the other poster about the teaching of Hodges which he posted a link. Hodges stated clearly that anyone not having assurance is not born again, which I vehemently disagree with. I agree that "fruit" (deeds) show what kind of "tree" we are.

Assurance comes from believing and accepting the truth of the scripture that right now possess eternal life in the Son, rest upon scriptures promises, not my own efforts and results

 

[YeshuaFan]

Hello D Taylor, that's an interesting thought, but I'm confused. If confession/repentance was not a part of establishing his relationship/fellowship with the living God in the first place (when he was saved and went from sinner to saint), why is it required to re-establish full fellowship with the Lord after he sinned again as a believer?

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I have a number of things that I'd like to ask you about from earlier in the thread, but since you just posted the one above, I thought that I'd start there. BTW, how do you/we know that the Apostle Peter was already a "born again" believer on the night that he lied (by saying that he did not know Him, the Lord Jesus, that is)?

Peter had already confessed per revelation from God the father that Jesus was Savior and Lord

 

[d taylor]

True salvation though will mean to some degree a changed lifestyle, some fruit shall evidence that profession of being now saved can become a confession of faith that saved

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The parable of the soils shows the three (2nd, 3rd and 4th soils) types of believers.

 

[YeshuaFan]

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The parable of the soils shows the three (2nd, 3rd and 4th soils) types of believers.

Think only real ones were the ones that had seed fall on good soil