What do you say to anti-theists on the formation of the universe?

[Hans Blaster]

Tell them happy oblivion day. (Jk)

There is so much evidence these days (unbiased study into anticipatory engineering in animals and insects for example) God told me let them lead each other around if they really want. I won't quote the Lord directly, but I'm sure the curious can search out the Word of God on that subject.

Which is not relevant to the question of the formation of the Universe. Bundle up your claims and start a thread on this "anticipatory engineering" you claim exists.

Let them believe what they want and love them anyway. Matthew 7:7 is a promise to those seeking His guidance, not to those who think they know everything themselves or who ask fallen humanity. I answer humble questions if people have them and let them believe their crazy imaginations if they have those. I'm not going to be answering God for them when we all get there.

The darkness and evil is real, and alive... it wants men's souls and it is relentless and never sleeps.

When we think we can lead ourselves and figure it out ourselves is when darkness has us by the ankles, even if we are unaware. Unaware... is exactly where they want you.

Take it elsewhere pal.

 

[Fervent]

Your deeds are evil.

Oh you, that's quite cute. Except of course the fact that you haven't got any foundation for making such a claim.

 

[BCP1928]

Ya -- all parties involved in those two incidents were born again, blood bought, believers, weren't they?

If they had been there would not have been a dispute. I know in the Judge Moore monument case he made the point himself that the Ten Commandments was not a monument to Judeo-Christian morality, but to Bible-believing Evangleical Protestant Christianity and no other.

 

[Fervent]

However, you should take responsibility for inducing a mix of frustration, disbelief, pity and distaste in members of your audience for your application of schoolboy rhetoric, flawed logic, simplistic theology, arrogant discourtesy and tiresome repetition. In the latter category I cite:

I am not concerned with the opinions of men, particularly of men who seek to suppress the Truth.

 

[Larniavc]

I am not concerned with the opinions of men,

Then why post?

 

[Ophiolite]

Then why post?

Good question. Perhaps it is a genuine desire to spread the Gospel, but it has just been handled ineptly. Or a misplaced attempt at playing Devil's Advocate to explore reactions to various assertions (or a practical experiment to do the same, but I doubt that would pass the Ethics Committee). Or perhaps it's just what it seems to be.

 

[dlamberth]

Good question. Perhaps it is a genuine desire to spread the Gospel, but it has just been handled ineptly.

To this person, unless Love is being preached, I can't help but question if a genuine Gospel is being spread. That's just what I look for is all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What do you say to anti-theists who say, the universe is self existent and all it's marvels exist by chance of themselves?

It is like the Egyptian sun disc concept, not seeing in full, and assuming it is flat.

There are ideas like the universe being self existent but dead.
The universe as having a soul.
The universe being god.
The universe being full of God.

I typically ignore most atheists. Now agnostics on the other hand at least have a chance of hearing and understanding, but not atheists.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I typically ignore most atheists. Now agnostics on the other hand at least have a chance of hearing and understanding, but not atheists.

What do you think the magic difference between the two groups is and why would that matter in understanding Christian scripture?

 

[Fervent]

Then why post?

To engage in debate. I don't have to esteem the man to recognize good arguments, or point out fallacious ones.

 

[Bradskii]

I think you are dancing around my point. My point being that atheist want to be their own personal god. What is your moral standard? The ten commandments you make yourself. What makes your personal ten commandments better than that of another? Because you are God of your universe.

It's the oddest way to put it. But yes, I am responsible for the decisions I make. My commandments aren't necessarily better than anyone else's - but they are mine.

Remember the flywheel? It applies to moral truths as well as beliefs per se. When we are young, we accept what we are told, generally by our parents. Do this, don't do that. If the parents are religious, as mine were and as I assume that yours were as well, we are told that Christianity is the path we should be taking, that God looks over us and you knelt at the bedside each night with your palms pressed together and your eyes closed and said 'God bless Mummy and Daddy. God bless Nana and Grandpa...' And as my parents were very conservative, those were the values I grew up with. Because they were the values that I was taught. So other people were turning that wheel for me. I had no input.

Then, at some point, you reach an age where it is explained to you that there will be occasions when you have to decide what you do. You are literally told that you will responsible for the decisions that you make. So they say that I have to decide, myself, whether something is right or wrong.

Now when most people say that they actually mean 'What we have already told you is correct - this only applies to matters which haven't been covered yet'. But you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to realise that if it's my decision to determine what is right and wrong, then that will apply to everything. Including the way I had been brought up. So the logical, and very obvious course of action, was to do that. To question it all. So I did.

Now this isn't meant as a point scoring exercise to imply that hey - look what I did! A free spirit! This is the way to go through life! No, I'm saying that this is the way we all go through life. Unless you blindly and automatically follow any direction or command (and maybe you've served in the forces so I'll grant that in that circumstance you are expected to do just that), then you have an internal debate about what the correct course of action should be. About whether something is right or wrong. As far as you are concerned.

You and I would probably agree on almost all moral matters. But the ones on which we disagree are ones where there has been some input for both of us that points us to a certain position and we have personally decided that the input is correct. And that includes matters such as the ten commandments for example. You either blindly accept them as they are, with no thought or you read each of them and think 'Yeah, that makes sense. Because...' and I'm certain that you'd be able to give me an argument for why you personally think it's a command that should be followed. In some cases I will have personally decided that you are right. And in some cases I will personally decide that you aren't. But we are the ones making the decision.

Now, back to the flywheel. When I was young, I used to have a lot of honestly held beliefs that changed over the years. Politically, socially, sexually...we experience different things as we grow. Different people. Different cultures. Different ways of thinking. We absorb it all and so that flywheel is all over the place. It's spinning hard in one direction and then gradually slows and reverses direction. Sometimes it speeds up in the same direction. Sometimes it just sits there waiting for the input. But...the longer you are exposed to all these things, the more you read, the more that you experience, the older you get in fact, the steadier that flywheel turns.

They say males mature in their early twenties. And I've been around the block a few times since then. Half a century and counting. So I've experienced quite a lot of 'input'. There have been very many internal debates over the decades. When I have personally decided what I consider to be right or wrong. My moral position is not fixed. I'm always open to arguments. I could personally decide that a previous held position is actually wrong. But gee, that flywheel is just a blur on many matters.

So if you want to say that 'you are God of your universe', then to the extent that I personally decide what moral path is the right one, then...yeah.

 

[Bradskii]

It is a VERY common view among Christians. Similar to the belief that if it wasn’t for God people would go out killing.

The obvious response being 'Please don't lose your faith'.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

My commandments aren't necessarily better than anyone else's - but they are mine.

You were arguing with me about moral relivatism, then you openly admit that what I said was true. Yes, you are correct. Your subjective "commandments" are not better than anyone else. To include the serial pedophile murderer who finds fulfillment and enjoyment in raping and murdering young children. If that statement is uncomfortable to you, I completely understand. But just know, as you have said, your commandments are not any better than anyone else's. Atheists cannot judge others for having a different set of "commandments" than their own. Hence, moral relivatism. Even if you try to argue, the rabbit hole does not end well. But that is a topic for a different thread.

 

[Bradskii]

Atheists cannot judge others for having a different set of "commandments" than their own. Hence, moral relivatism.

This is a very common error which I'll need to address a little later.

 

[dlamberth]

You were arguing with me about moral relivatism, then you openly admit that what I said was true. Yes, you are correct. Your subjective "commandments" are not better than anyone else. To include the serial pedophile murderer who finds fulfillment and enjoyment in raping and murdering young children. If that statement is uncomfortable to you, I completely understand. But just know, as you have said, your commandments are not any better than anyone else's. Atheists cannot judge others for having a different set of "commandments" than their own. Hence, moral relivatism. Even if you try to argue, the rabbit hole does not end well. But that is a topic for a different thread.

I feel pretty confident in saying that a serial pedophile murderer is an act that would not fit into #Bradskii's moral standards. There's nothing subjective about it. That's why society has developed laws to address that sort of thing. There's even no need for a Divine inspired commandments on that one.

 

[Fervent]

I feel pretty confident in saying that a serial pedophile murderer is an act that would not fit into #Bradskii's moral standards. There's nothing subjective about it. That's why society has developed laws to address that sort of thing. There's even no need for a Divine inspired commandments on that one.

The issue isn't whether @Bradskii would approve or disapprove, but that his basis for approval or disapproval carries no inherent weight. If tomorrow society decided that pedophilic rapist murderers were ok, there'd be no grounds for disagreeing. Nothing can be said to be right or wrong under relativistic "morality" because it's all opinion, even if there is a level of consensus opinion. Either morals are absolute, and there is genuine right and wrong, or morals are arbitrary agreements and the only real rule is how much you can get away with(or impose on others).

 

[Larniavc]

Either morals are absolute, and there is genuine right and wrong, or morals are arbitrary agreements and the only real rule is how much you can get away with(or impose on others).

In my experience people are generally decent to each other. They need to be pushed to overcome empathy to bring harm to others. The level of push required might be zero but that’s not the norm. In my experience.

I used to think people were just pretending but it turns out they are not. Who knew?

 

[Fervent]

In my experience people are generally decent to each other. They need to be pushed to overcome empathy to bring harm to others. The level of push required might be zero but that’s not the norm. In my experience.

You must live a charmed life.

 

[AV1611VET]

In my experience people are generally decent to each other. They need to be pushed to overcome empathy to bring harm to others. The level of push required might be zero but that’s not the norm. In my experience.

What pushed Cain?

 

[Zceptre]

Which is not relevant to the question of the formation of the Universe. Bundle up your claims and start a thread on this "anticipatory engineering" you claim exists.

This is called an opinion. It would be "your" opinion. I don't pander to laziness, as the world is ripe with knowledge sources and I didn't step into a courtroom and am not on trial. So, they can stay ignorant if they like, or have and opinion, or both. I'm not offended... I don't force myself on others or bark orders to believe things or not. You are welcome to think this is all a big accident if you are so adamantly inclined.

Take it elsewhere pal.

I think the appropriate response here would quite frankly be, no.

If you are that offended, your volition can be used to avoid reading my posts. Those would be "my" opinions. I'm quite welcome it seems to address the community. Standard practice.

Thanks for the suggestion though.