White Male Protestants built the USA?

[BCP1928]

Actually, Deists weren't all that close to protestants or any form of Christianity. While they may have shared some mutual rejection of certain Catholic dogmas, that's where many of the similarities ended.

Yet they were still exemplars of Anglo-Protestant culture, which is perhaps more important.

In the 17th and 18th century, Deism (in practice) was the acknowledging of a vague, non-descript, creator who made the universe but doesn’t intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. Deists rejected revealed religion (like the Bible, miracles, the divinity of Jesus, and church dogma)

Hardly vague, the Deist God was rationally defined and directly descended from Aristotle's unmoved mover.

And it's also worth pointing out, that many atheists of the day would simply label themselves as deists because it was tremendously unpopular for one to identify as an atheist (in fact, they were considered "dangerous"), so Deist, in the founders time, ended up being sort of a "catch all" for people who didn't identify with (or rejected) organized religion, and it was far more "socially safe" to go that route.


They were meant to highlight the difference between "Women being omitted because they actually didn't have any part in it" vs. "Women being omitted due to social constructs dictating that the men are the 'leaders' and deserve to get the glory"

The Ford example is the former, the NASA Apollo example is the latter.

 

[Larniavc]

Now that the majority of blacks are Christians it seems fitting to undo the generations of oppression and exclusion from wealth

So only ‘free’ the slaves once they convert to Christianity?

That’s horrendous.

 

[mindlight]

"Poe" here is a verb

Perhaps this was an unfortunate C&P.

If the current crop of WMPs are not to blame for anything their ancestors did, then they equally are not to be praised. If my great-grandfather stole your great-grandfather's house, that's bad, probably, but that doesn't mean that my inheritance of that house should be questioned. <- How I read the argument.

I pride myself on having a reasonable vocabulary but I have never heard the word Poe before this. Thanks for the correction.

The British have the same ongoing discussion with ex-colonies demanding trillions in compensation for the sins of our fathers regarding slavery. A more positive future focus is a better way to address past injustices. The solution sounds something like- we see where you are, we can give you a helping hand- now this is what you can do to climb out of that - go do that. The solution is about the possibility of social mobility which is not happening right now.

The controversy here is of course the extent to which a helping hand is provided, what form that takes, and who pays for it. I favor improvements in education, apprenticeship schemes, and the removal of barriers to progress with legal changes if necessary. If you can equalize the starting point then after that it is about merit, application and hard work.

 

[mindlight]

That's an ugly but there.

It did at first, but then came Jim Crow and race riots that wiped out much of the black gains. Black people and women were deliberately excluded from much of society's benefits. They worked but were delegated to mostly low paying jobs. For much of this country's history, teaching and nursing were the only professions open to women - and they often were fired for being pregnant as that was considered indecent in public.

That and being allowed to have intact families, being able to keep their own children was a big benefit even if that meant extra costs. Being able to choose for themselves where to live, what to do, who to have children with are big benefits. Getting an education, reading and writing became legal with the end of slavery. No longer being subject to beatings and forced labor are big benefits.

Jim Crow and enforced pay differentials were ways of enforcing that delicious feeling of superiority. Women being allowed to control their own property even if married, being able to sign contracts and have bank accounts diminished that feeling of superiority - then came equal pay.

Even today, black refugees had their protection revoked while white Boer "refugees" were brought in because a certain president decided that the latter fit in better.

Helpful and informative post. How can these demons of racial and sexist oppression be exorcised today?

 

[mindlight]

Actually, Deists weren't all that close to protestants or any form of Christianity. While they may have shared some mutual rejection of certain Catholic dogmas, that's where many of the similarities ended.

In the 17th and 18th century, Deism (in practice) was the acknowledging of a vague, non-descript, creator who made the universe but doesn’t intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. Deists rejected revealed religion (like the Bible, miracles, the divinity of Jesus, and church dogma)

And it's also worth pointing out, that many atheists of the day would simply label themselves as deists because it was tremendously unpopular for one to identify as an atheist (in fact, they were considered "dangerous"), so Deist, in the founders time, ended up being sort of a "catch all" for people who didn't identify with (or rejected) organized religion, and it was far more "socially safe" to go that route.


They were meant to highlight the difference between "Women being omitted because they actually didn't have any part in it" vs. "Women being omitted due to social constructs dictating that the men are the 'leaders' and deserve to get the glory"

The Ford example is the former, the NASA Apollo example is the latter.

While it's understandable that some may draw comparisons between Deism and atheism, such an association may overlook important distinctions. Many of the Deist Founding Fathers, including George Washington, regularly attended church services, and Washington himself even served as a churchwarden. The Deism of that era was often expressed using the philosophical language of the time—such as Aristotle’s concept of the "unmoved mover"—which conveyed a noninterventionist view of the divine. For many, adopting this intellectual tone lent their beliefs a sense of credibility and depth in Enlightenment circles.

In George Washington’s case, his language sometimes reflected Deist thought and at other times Christian themes, but he consistently expressed a strong belief in Providence—suggesting a guiding presence of God in human affairs. Given the religious context of the time, characterizing the Founders as covert atheists seems anachronistic, much like equating today’s Theistic Evolutionists with atheists.

It's also worth noting that Deism in the American context developed more as a branch of Protestant Christianity rather than from Catholic traditions.

What are the key issues of US Election 2024?

If Americans are saddled with Biden vs Trump again, it may be difficult to motivate us to vote at all. Mr Trump inspires much anger in people on both sides of the political spectrum tho. I can merely speculate because I am not convinced voting is even worth my time. Maybe another Trump debacle...

www.christianforums.com

The NASA example to me shows how behind the scenes things had already changed by the late sixties. Even if men were still taking the credit women were now performing effectively in the public arena and it was just a matter of time before that was recognised.

 

[mindlight]

So only ‘free’ the slaves once they convert to Christianity?

That’s horrendous.

How can a person become free if they do not know true freedom?

 

[Nithavela]

How can a person become free if they do not know true freedom?

Why not enslave white non-christians?

 

[BCP1928]

Why not enslave white non-christians?

Don't think that MAGA Christians have never considered the possibility..

 

[A2SG]

Don't think that MAGA Christians have never considered the possibility..

Probably part of Project 2029: Third Time's The Charm.

-- A2SG, a pretty bad sequel, but still not as bad as Superman 4....

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

It is a genuine set of questions. The portrayal of American history in these simplistic and racist terms is something that probably should be disputed.

As an American, I acknowledge our history of systemic racism and discrimination. However, Europe also has a similar past spanning thousands of years. During my travels to the Middle East and Southeast Asia, I've observed discrimination and racism. Instead of focusing solely on America or Europe, we should discuss why racism and discrimination exist worldwide, regardless of cultural background or region.

 

[mindlight]

Deleted

 

[BCP1928]

The controversy here is of course the extent to which a helping hand is provided, what form that takes, and who pays for it. I favor improvements in education, apprenticeship schemes, and the removal of barriers to progress with legal changes if necessary. If you can equalize the starting point then after that it is about merit, application and hard work.

That will always be the dream, but what do you do about it in the meantime?

 

[BCP1928]

As an American, I acknowledge our history of systemic racism and discrimination. However, Europe also has a similar past spanning thousands of years. During my travels to the Middle East and Southeast Asia, I've observed discrimination and racism. Instead of focusing solely on America or Europe, we should discuss why racism and discrimination exist worldwide, regardless of cultural background or region.

It's human nature. But human nature (as one of my favorite theologians, Rose Sayer, put it) "is what we were put in this world to rise above." It's not an excuse.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

As stated in my previous post, American history does have systemic racism and discrimination; however, this issue is not unique to America. Every country in the world has instances of these problems. For example, Great Britain has a history spanning over 500 years where Protestants and Catholics fought against each other. In Germany, discrimination led to the deaths of over six million Jews during the Holocaust, culminating in a war that resulted in approximately 50 million casualties.

Nevertheless, some people around the world tend to focus solely on discrimination in America. This thread is a case of "the pot calling the kettle black".

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

It's human nature. But human nature (as one of my favorite theologians, Rose Sayer, put it) "is what we were put in this world to rise above." It's not an excuse.

I am neither defending racism nor discrimination, nor am I attempting to justify racism in America. My point is that racism and discrimination towards other races, cultures, and religions exist in every society and every region in the world.

 

[BCP1928]

As stated in my previous post, American history does have systemic racism and discrimination; however, this issue is not unique to America. Every country in the world has instances of these problems. For example, Great Britain has a history spanning over 500 years where Protestants and Catholics fought against each other. In Germany, discrimination led to the deaths of over six million Jews during the Holocaust, culminating in a war that resulted in approximately 50 million casualties.

Nevertheless, some people around the world tend to focus solely on discrimination in America. This thread is a case of "the pot calling the kettle black".

Sure they do, But then, do they boast that they are better than the rest of the world at advancing freedom?

 

[BCP1928]

I am neither defending racism nor discrimination, nor am I attempting to justify racism in America. My point is that racism and discrimination towards other races, cultures, and religions exist in every society and every region in the world.

You can't be saying that--that's the kind of conclusions CRT comes to.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Sure they do, But then, do they boast that they are better than the rest of the world at advancing freedom?

Every country, religion, and society believes they are superior. The difference with Americans is that we are better at marketing our perceived superiority.

 

[BCP1928]

Every country, religion, and society believes they are superior. The difference with Americans is that we are better at marketing our perceived superiority.

Only to a segment of the American people, it appears.

 

[DaisyDay]

Why not enslave white non-christians?

We do have a massive prison system where forced labor is allowed.