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Does Matthew 24 describe the rapture?

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Unless you can provide scripture that says everyone is Judged at their deaths, then Revelation 20:12 stands.
Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I know you are very aware of the above scripture but you have nullified it by your IMO false interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9. Verse 22 both the rich man and Lazarus died. And as far as their eternal fate they were both judged at death because they went to different places. Verse 23 the rich man was conscious. I do not subscribe to the idea that this is a parable but even if it is, the truth it expresses is unchanged. Both men were judged at death as to where their eternal existence would be. Verse 24 the rich man was conscious of pain. Verse 29 Abraham whose flesh was dead and in the grave spoke to the rich man. It is indisputable that both of the dead men were conscious and aware. They had ceased to know anything about the physical realm on earth but they were very much aware of their present condition.
 
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Jamdoc

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Hebrews 9:27 It is our human lot to die once, then comes the Judgment.
Dead people lose consciousness, then their next moment of awareness will be to stand before God on His Great White Throne.
Unless you can provide scripture that says everyone is Judged at their deaths, then Revelation 20:12 stands.

There is therefore: a time gap between death and the Judgment, when the Book of Life will be opened. Daniel 7:9-10 beautifully describes that event.
Eccl 12:1-7 says: the soul returns to the One who made it. No mention of consciousness or living in heaven.
Yeah no. Revelation has multiple instances of people being conscious of what's happening on Earth while in heaven.
Which PROVES the Rapture is Pre Trib. Again, this is SIMPLE MATHEMATICS, if the Beast signs a 7 Year Agreement and this starts up God's 70th week that is a natural 2520 day countdown, if the Beast rules for exactly 42 months after he conquers Israel that is a 1260 day countdown, if the Two-witnesses show up 1335 das before the 2nd coming, that is a 1335 day countdown. The only time there can not be a KNOWN COUNTDOWN unto is a Pre Trib. Rapture.
Incorrect, the most incorrect thing is determining that Jesus comes from heaven on a known date. Pretribulationists still do this by separating the rapture from the second coming (something the bible does not do)
Revelation 19 Jesus is already covered in blood. He has ALREADY been on Earth, treading the winepress of His wrath.
Armageddon is a known date, but the second coming is an unknown date.
As a man called unto Prophecy for 40 years, you guys have no understanding of these biblical concepts, you get shown a way by some guy and you cling unto it for all its worth, you have to learn how to be guided by the holy spirit, and in order to do that you have to be able to say I AM WRONG. Way too many people can never say I am wrong on anything, this the holy spirit ca not overcome their "ideas" Remember when Jesus told the Pharisees about the dangers of the "Traditions of Men?" You can't see the obvious because you do not want to see it my friend.


Its like a lost cause, its just not worth the effort it takes sadly.
the lost cause is people still clinging to their definition of what Jesus meant by Tribulation, and somehow injecting the end of it into Revelation 19 and thinking Matthew 24:29 has anything to do with a white horse.
or that Jesus returns on a white horse.
 
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keras

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Both men were judged at death as to where their eternal existence would be
You know quite well that this conclusion is a direct contradiction of Revelation 20:11-15.
The proof is in when the Book of Life is opened. Only if our name is found to be Written in that Book, do we receive Eternal life.

Luke 16:19-31 must be a fable, a homily; told to warn us to get right with God in this life. It is our only chance for Eternity.
Yeah no. Revelation has multiple instances of people being conscious of what's happening on Earth while in heaven.
There is no mention in the Bible, of any human actually living in heaven. And there is no purpose or valid reason for any human to live in heaven.
The faithful Christian peoples will be on earth when Jesus Returns, to be His Priests and co-rulers Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10

If it is difficult for people to overcome false teachings and understand Biblical truths, then how can they get thru the forthcoming end time things, without falling from their faith?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It's always best to consult with what God said in His own Words and He told us when is Lords Day and its not Sunday, this is a man-made tradition leading people away from obeying God's commandments Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

God said the Sabbath is the holy day of the Lord- meaning there is no other, thus saith the Lord. The Lords day as day 1 in no where in Scripture, its all man-made going against what God said.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord, thus saith the Lord.

Sadly, the Sabbath was changed just as God warned Dan 7:25 that most the world has followed instead of being faithful to God and keeping what He asked us to Remember, obeying Him because He is God, instead of following popular traditions Jesus warned us about Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13. We need to remember the devil has made a counterfeit to everything God made and He warns us of being deceived by him, he said the whole world will be deceived and I believe they have over keeping a day for worship in lieu of a finger-written by God commandment on the day God blessed and sanctified for holy use, instead of keeping holy God said was a day to do works and labors Exo 20:9 something we were warned about Eze 22:26
Keeping the Sabbath day was NEVER commanded of Gentiles and was part of the old covenant law of Moses. It is not a command for the new covenant church. You are sadly mistaken and have been deluded by legalism. We in the church are to rest in the Lord of the Sabbath AT ALL TIMES rather than focusing on keeping the Sabbath one day a week as ONLY the Jews were commanded to do.
 
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Jamdoc

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Keeping the Sabbath day was NEVER commanded of Gentiles and was part of the old covenant law of Moses. It is not a command for the new covenant church. You are sadly mistaken and have been deluded by legalism. We in the church are to rest in the Lord of the Sabbath AT ALL TIMES rather than focusing on keeping the Sabbath one day a week as ONLY the Jews were commanded to do.
a lot of the Mosaic laws were specifically created in order to make a separation between Jew and Gentile

after the Cross, after the Gospel went to the Gentiles, that separation was no longer needed. Hence God's vision to Peter about all animals being clean now. Yes it was in regards to taking the gospel to the Gentiles but Peter should have already known to do that since that was in the great commission.
It was also quite literally, going back to Noah where all animals were clean, doing away with Dietary Laws that existed specifically to separate Israel from the Gentiles.
Paul understood this, that's why Paul was against Judaizing. Those laws were to separate Jew from Gentile but now that the Gospel is gone out to the whole world, and we're all Co-heirs.. no more separation needed.

I don't think it's sin to still go kosher, fi you're doing it as a part of say, being a Messianic Jew, to have your cultural identity defined by these things. It's not evil to do that. It's not sin to set apart the Sabbath for worship either. Paul didn't put it that way, it's a Romans 14 thing. A "liberty" thing.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

(I'm agreeing with you but just adding some context to agree with you)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Keeping the Sabbath day was NEVER commanded of Gentiles and was part of the old covenant law of Moses. It is not a command for the new covenant church. You are sadly mistaken and have been deluded by legalism. We in the church are to rest in the Lord of the Sabbath AT ALL TIMES rather than focusing on keeping the Sabbath one day a week as ONLY the Jews were commanded to do.
@Jamdoc
Can you please show me where its says the Sabbath is no longer a commandment in the NT? Can you please show me where the Sabbath is not part of God's covenant Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28, the law of Moses was outside the ark Deut 31:24-26 God's own Testimony, the Ten Commandments that includes the Sabbath is part of Gods Testimony that is inside the ark. Exo 31:18 Exo 40:20

The very close followers of Jesus who followed Him everywhere kept the Sabbath according to the commandment in the NT after His death

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

So if there was a change to one of God's personally spoken and personal written, the personal Testimony of God, the Creator of all the Universe Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 commandments, Jesus would have told someone, anyone, can you please find that verse for me? Jesus said He came not to destroy the law, not a jot or tittle Mat 5:17-30

His faithful followers were one of the first people He saw when He rose and they knew obeying Gods commandments including the Sabbath was still important and why it was kept after His death, so Jesus never told them.

Lets look at Jesus own personal Testimony

Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

The Sabbath never ended at least 40 years after His death because He commissioned His faithful to pray at least 40 years that the destruction of Jerusalem not be on the Sabbath day or in winter. Why would Jesus say this if it was "Old Covenant" the New Covenant ratified at His death, did Jesus teach "Old Covenant"

What did Jesus say on this matter?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always

Did the apostles teach the Sabbath was "old covenant" when the Gentiles asked for more gospel preaching on the next Sabbath

Act 13:42 [n]So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Did the apostles correct them that's "Old covenant" or for Jews only, mind you this is 30 years after the death of Christ

Of course they didn't because the Sabbath is a commandment of God and the apostles taught and kept God's commandments

Acts 13:44 4 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Why both Jews and Gentiles were keeping every Sabbath
Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

No wonder why Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and not just the Jews Mark 2:27 and is for everyone Isa 56:6 thus saith the Lord.

I am not sure why anyone would call spending time with God on the day He set aside from Creation, blessed, sanctified for holy use to spend quality time with man so He can bless Isa 56:2 and sanctify us Eze 22:12 because man can't sanctify themselves Isa 66:17 as legalism

If we object to God's Sabbath now, the holy day of the Lord, thus saith the Lord, Isa 58:13 meaning there is no other, would one really be happy in heaven when the Sabbath continues for eternity to come before the Lord to worship Him Isa 66:23, its why I believe His Judgement is one of love as not everyone would be happy in heaven.

Lets not be deceived out of the blessing God wants to give us by following the crowd, over obeying one of God's commandment. This is what Jesus taught Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13. The Jews made God's Sabbath all about man-made rules and less about love, which Jesus was correcting, but keeping the Sabbath is a delight Isa 58:13 joining ourselves to Christ Isa 56:6 and a sign we are God's people Eze 20:20 It points to the God of Creation Exo 20:11 and a sign of His re-creation Eze 20:12
 
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SabbathBlessings

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5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


(I'm agreeing with you but just adding some context to agree with you)
Can you please show me where man is above God anywhere in the Bible. People use this verse, but its really out of context. It says what one man esteems above another, not what God esteemed, God esteemed the seventh day at creation above all others when He blessed, sanctified and made holy the seventh day Gen 2:1-3 He called the seventh day the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 My holy day, the holy day of the Lord thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13 that Jesus is Lord of Mark 2:28 meaning it didn't change. The 4th commandment is more than the Sabbath commandment, it is a commandment for all days. Work 6 days Exo 20:9 keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo 20:8-10 as man was made in God's likeness from creation Gen 1:26

Were the apostles undermining God's personal Testimony, written by the God of the Universe? Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13

Of course not, why the Sabbath is not mentioned at all in this entire chapter. Man adds it there when we were told not to Pro 30:5-6

It would be similar to us debating if we should keep Easter or Christmas. Some Christians do and some don't. Not if we should obey God and His commandments or not. God tells us we should Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Mat 14:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 12:17 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14

I pray this helps a little. :)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I know you are very aware of the above scripture but you have nullified it by your IMO false interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9. Verse 22 both the rich man and Lazarus died. And as far as their eternal fate they were both judged at death because they went to different places. Verse 23 the rich man was conscious. I do not subscribe to the idea that this is a parable but even if it is, the truth it expresses is unchanged. Both men were judged at death as to where their eternal existence would be. Verse 24 the rich man was conscious of pain. Verse 29 Abraham whose flesh was dead and in the grave spoke to the rich man. It is indisputable that both of the dead men were conscious and aware. They had ceased to know anything about the physical realm on earth but they were very much aware of their present condition.
This is a parable, which means not to take literal.

But lets look at what Jesus taught plainly on the subject

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.


Its what the apostles taught too, it truly cannot be made any plainer.


1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
 
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Postvieww

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This is a parable, which means not to take literal.

But lets look at what Jesus taught plainly on the subject

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.


Its what the apostles taught too, it truly cannot be made any plainer.


1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
I disagree! Not all of Christianity believes the Passage in Luke is a parable. 1. Other parables state explicitly or imply they are a parable, Luke does not. 2. Other parables do not specify individuals by name , Luke does. So we can just agree to disagree on this point. Let’s move on to the transfiguration. Explain how Moses was present if he was in a state of soul sleep? Among the whole of Christianity soul sleep is the minority position with Seventh Day Adventist bring a major promoter of the doctrine. In Revelation souls are shown to be conscious and communicating. The words of Paul also do not support soul sleep. This is far from a settle doctrine in favor of soul sleep. From my discussions on this forum it appears to me that most who defend soul sleep use Ecclesiastes 9 as the defining single passage with which to interpret all other passages on the topic. This IMO is not sound exegesis. In fact I believe most use the passage out of context and ignore the plain language of many other passages,
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I disagree! Not all of Christianity believes the Passage in Luke is a parable. 1. Other parables state explicitly or imply they are a parable, Luke does not. 2. Other parables do not specify individuals by name , Luke does. So we can just agree to disagree on this point. Let’s move on to the transfiguration. Explain how Moses was present if he was in a state of soul sleep? Among the whole of Christianity soul sleep is the minority position with Seventh Day Adventist bring a major promoter of the doctrine. In Revelation souls are shown to be conscious and communicating. The words of Paul also do not support soul sleep. This is far from a settle doctrine in favor of soul sleep. From my discussions on this forum it appears to me that most who defend soul sleep use Ecclesiastes 9 as the defining single passage with which to interpret all other passages on the topic. This IMO is not sound exegesis. In fact I believe most use the passage out of context and ignore the plain language of many other passages,
So you take it literally?

Lets break that down

If someone is burning in hell would a dip of a finger cool anyone down?
Is the God of love really going to torment people forever?
How does someone repent if they are dead?
How many people can Abraham's bosom hold? I can't imagine not more than one or two
Why would anyone think being in Abrahams bosom is heaven? That's not my ideal of heaven nor what the Bible describes those saved will be doing

Nay, this is a parable and should never be ignored over the plain teachings of Jesus and the rest of Scripture.

Regarding Moses, it appeared he was given a special resurrection as we see in Jude 1:9.

The rest will be risen when Jesus comes
1 Thes 4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Why would the dead in Christ rise, if they are already in heaven in Abrahams bosom?

By the way, soul sleep is a not a term SDA's use. We use the same term Jesus used that the dead sleep John 11:11,14 until Jesus returns.

I am OK agreeing to disagree

Be well. :)
 
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Regarding Moses, it appeared he was given a special resurrections as we see in Jude 1:9.
This seems to be a common answer to scripture that is s problem for a certain doctrine. When the plain language of scripture does not align with a proposed doctrine it must be an exception or a special circumstance. It seems to be a stretch to claim Moses was given a special resurrection. Jude does not imply a special resurrection for Moses. One has to make a lot of scripturally unsupported assumptions to make such a claim. 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Christ was the first fruits and could not have been preceded by Moses. Part of the confusion on this topic comes from not properly discerning the make up of man. At physical death the body returns to dust and the soul or spirit returns to God. Mose was visible in his spirt form not his earthly physical body, that body was dead and sometimes referred to asleep in the grave awaiting a bodily resurrection and eternal glorification like that of Jesus. Again Jesus was first and could not gave been preceded by Moses.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This seems to be a common answer to scripture that is s problem for a certain doctrine. When the plain language of scripture does not align with a proposed doctrine it must be an exception or a special circumstance. It seems to be a stretch to claim Moses was given a special resurrection. Jude does not imply a special resurrection for Moses. One has to make a lot of scripturally unsupported assumptions to make such a claim. 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Christ was the first fruits and could not have been preceded by Moses. Part of the confusion on this topic comes from not properly discerning the make up of man. At physical death the body returns to dust and the soul or spirit returns to God. Mose was visible in his spirt form not his earthly physical body, that body was dead and sometimes referred to asleep in the grave awaiting a bodily resurrection and eternal glorification like that of Jesus. Again Jesus was first and could not gave been preceded by Moses.
Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead according to Jesus so how does your theory work out that He couldn't raise Moses before the resurrection of Jesus when Jesus raised others from the dead before He was crucified and resurrected?


John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”

4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. 7 Then after this He said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”

8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”

I Am the Resurrection and the Life
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about [a]two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Jesus and Death, the Last Enemy
28 And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met Him. 31 Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, [c]saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”

32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?”

They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”

35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”

37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

Lazarus Raised from the Dead
38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”

Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 Then they took away the stone [d]from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This seems to be a common answer to scripture that is s problem for a certain doctrine. When the plain language of scripture does not align with a proposed doctrine it must be an exception or a special circumstance. It seems to be a stretch to claim Moses was given a special resurrection. Jude does not imply a special resurrection for Moses. One has to make a lot of scripturally unsupported assumptions to make such a claim. 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Christ was the first fruits and could not have been preceded by Moses. Part of the confusion on this topic comes from not properly discerning the make up of man. At physical death the body returns to dust and the soul or spirit returns to God. Mose was visible in his spirt form not his earthly physical body, that body was dead and sometimes referred to asleep in the grave awaiting a bodily resurrection and eternal glorification like that of Jesus. Again Jesus was first and could not gave been preceded by Moses.
What did they call the dead that you just quoted?

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ was the first to be risen at the resurrection, the first fruits, but it looks like He took some others with Him

Mat 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

We don't know who Jesus took during this special resurrection, King David wasn't among them, nor is he in Abrahams bosom

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

I am sure David will be saved when the rest of those who sleep in Christ will be raised on the last day when Jesus comes

1 Thes 4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 
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What did they call the dead that you just quoted?

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ was the first to be risen at the resurrection, the first fruits, but it looks like He took some others with Him
Maybe He did maybe not! That passage in Matthew does not give us a lot of information. Yes some saints rose when Christ rose but they are never mentioned again and we cannot definitively say if they were glorified. into eternal bodies like Jesus or just raises from the dead like Lazaurus to experience natural death again at a later time. No real point in speculation we cannot answer that question scripturally.

Mat 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

We don't know who Jesus took during this special resurrection, King David wasn't among them, nor is he in Abrahams bosom

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV
Correct we don't know who was raised or in what form or what there destination was. Scripture just does not say.

The raising of Lazarus was in no way like the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was raised glorified into an eternal resurrected body . Lazarus was not. Jesus was the first fruits of them that slept Lazarus was not. There several examples of individuals being raised from the dead in scripture.
None of those were raised to immortality and they died again. There have been examples throughout the church age of clinically dead people being raised through prayer but they all died or will die again. Jesus was the first fruits!


Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

I am sure David will be saved when the rest of those who sleep in Christ will be raised on the last day when Jesus comes

1 Thes 4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Maybe He did maybe not! That passage in Matthew does not give us a lot of information. Yes some saints rose when Christ rose but they are never mentioned again and we cannot definitively say if they were glorified. into eternal bodies like Jesus or just raises from the dead like Lazaurus to experience natural death again at a later time. No real point in speculation we cannot answer that question scripturally.


Correct we don't know who was raised or in what form or what there destination was. Scripture just does not say.

The raising of Lazarus was in no way like the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was raised glorified into an eternal resurrected body . Lazarus was not. Jesus was the first fruits of them that slept Lazarus was not. There several examples of individuals being raised from the dead in scripture.
None of those were raised to immortality and they died again. There have been examples throughout the church age of clinically dead people being raised through prayer but they all died or will die again. Jesus was the first fruits!
I believe the Scriptures are saying something different, but Iike I said, I am OK agreeing to disagree.

Be well. :)
 
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Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead according to Jesus so how does your theory work out that He couldn't raise Moses before the resurrection of Jesus when Jesus raised others from the dead before He was crucified and resurrected?
Jesus was raised to immortality Lazarus was not ! Jesus was the first. there is no scriptural record of Moses being raised. He could not have been raised to appear at the transfiguration because Jesus was first and the saint raised with Jesus had not yet happened. The only logical explanation was that it was the spirit of Moses seen with Jesus not a resurrected Moses. Your belief in soul sleep does not allow you to see the difference in the body sleeping in the grave while the spirit is in the presence of God just as Paul stated.
John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”

4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. 7 Then after this He said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”

8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”

I Am the Resurrection and the Life
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about [a]two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Jesus and Death, the Last Enemy
28 And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met Him. 31 Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, [c]saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”

32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?”

They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”

35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”

37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

Lazarus Raised from the Dead
38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”

Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 Then they took away the stone [d]from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Amen , Jesus performed a great miracle BUT Lazarus was not raised to immortality at that point BECAUSE Jesus was the first! Lazarus died again at some later point or he his still walking the earth in a physical mortal body which is highly doubtful.
The body dies and SLEEPS in grave until the resurrection. The spirit goes to be with God.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Souls sleep is a false doctrine and is not even the prevalent belief among the majority of Christian believers.

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen was killed and his spirit went to be with the Lord his body sleeps in the grave until his sprit is reunited with a resurrected glorified body like that of Jesus . That my friend is what scripture teaches.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Jesus's spirit left His body upon HIs death, His body went into the tomb and 3 days later His spirit returned to a raised glorified eternal body. Just as will will happen to every believer at the resurrection.

Soul sleep is a FALSE doctrine refuted numerous times in scripture.
 
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I believe the Scriptures are saying something different, but Iike I said, I am OK agreeing to disagree.

Be well. :)
On this point you are wrong, but free to believe what you wish . I have seen you are not able to explain away the points I have raised. You need to do that for yourself. You be well as well,.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Jesus was raised to immortality Lazarus was not ! Jesus was the first. there is no scriptural record of Moses being raised. He could not have been raised to appear at the transfiguration because Jesus was first and the saint raised with Jesus had not yet happened. The only logical explanation was that it was the spirit of Moses seen with Jesus not a resurrected Moses. Your belief in soul sleep does not allow you to see the difference in the body sleeping in the grave while the spirit is in the presence of God just as Paul stated.


Amen , Jesus performed a great miracle BUT Lazarus was not raised to immortality at that point BECAUSE Jesus was the first! Lazarus died again at some later point or he his still walking the earth in a physical mortal body which is highly doubtful.
The body dies and SLEEPS in grave until the resurrection. The spirit goes to be with God.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Souls sleep is a false doctrine and is not even the prevalent belief among the majority of Christian believers.

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen was killed and his spirit went to be with the Lord his body sleeps in the grave until his sprit is reunited with a resurrected glorified body like that of Jesus . That my friend is what scripture teaches.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Jesus's spirit left His body upon HIs death, His body went into the tomb and 3 days later His spirit returned to a raised glorified eternal body. Just as will will happen to every believer at the resurrection.

Soul sleep is a FALSE doctrine refuted numerous times in scripture.
What is soul sleep? Its not a term the church I belong to uses. We use the the dead sleep until they are raised by Christ, because that's what the Scriptures teach as already shown. Either to eternal life or to the lake of fire as we see in Rev 20

I agree, when someone dies the spirit goes back to Christ, but it clearly says a body without the spirit is dead James 2:26 The dead know nothing Ecc 9:5, the dead do not praise God Psalm 115:17. I am pretty sure those in heaven are praising God, so it must mean the body sleeps until Jesus comes as clearly stated 1 Thes 4:16-17 God is the one that can kill both the body and the soul Matthew 10:28 which we see in Rev 20
 
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Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.
Thus seems to imply a belief in soul sleep even though that might not be the term you use.
By the way, soul sleep is a not a term SDA's use. We use the same term Jesus used that the dead sleep John 11:11,14 until Jesus returns.
Maybe not the term you use but if you dig deep into the SDA teachings that is exactly what it means.
What is soul sleep? It’s not a term the church I belong to uses. We use the the dead sleep until they are raised by Christ, because that's what the Scriptures teach as already shown. Either to eternal life or to the lake of fire as we see in Rev 20
So far your posts have seemed to be on both sides of the issue. Soul sleep generally means both spirit and body are asleep in the grave until the resurrection.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Thus seems to imply a belief in soul sleep even though that might not be the term you use.

Maybe not the term you use but if you dig deep into the SDA teachings that is exactly what it means.

So far your posts have seemed to be on both sides of the issue. Soul sleep generally means both spirit and body are asleep in the grave until the resurrection.
Again, I do not know what soul sleep is, I am SDA and know what my church teaches, they teach exactly what Jesus taught on the subject and the apostles.

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.


Its what the apostles taught too, it truly cannot be made any plainer.


1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

When someone dies the spirit goes back to Christ, but it clearly says a body without the spirit is dead James 2:26 The dead know nothing Ecc 9:5, the dead do not praise God Psalm 115:17. I am pretty sure those in heaven are praising God, so it must mean the body sleeps until Jesus comes as clearly stated 1 Thes 4:16-17 God is the one that can kill both the body and the soul Matthew 10:28 which we see in Rev 20
 
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