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Clare73

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Yes, either way we can't know with absolute certainy.
The NT word of God disagrees: "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. . .heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" in his inheritance from the Father. (Ro 8:16-17)
No, it can be thrown out by us, just as Adam threw it out in Eden with God right there with him.
Adam was not sealed in obedience as we are sealed in Christ with the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13-14).
There was much to learn, wisdom to be gained now by experience in this relatively godless, sin-laced world. That's one aspect of His grace.
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2 20-22
Sure, and people are wrong and self-deceived all day long about subjective experiences. I'm sure Paul knew that as well. There are two sides to the coin.
While only one side of the coin are the elect sealed in obedience, as we are sealed in Christ with the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13-14).
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Precisely. . .the elect, enabled by the Holy Spirit through saving faith, sow to please the Spirit, while the non-elect sow to please their flesh.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

Salvation is about coming to know and so believe in, hope in, and, most importantl;y, to love the true God as revealed by His Son.
Salvation, by definition, is about being saved from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on sin; i.e., condemnation, at the Judgment, by remission of our sin through faith and trust in the person (Jn 3:18) and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).
Sanctification is about growing in obedience and love of God after salvation, the remission of sin.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
There is no knowing God without remission of one's sin through faith and trust in the person (Jn 3:18) and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).
 
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fhansen

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Precisely. . .the elect, enabled by the Holy Spirit through saving faith, sow to please the Spirit, while the non-elect sow to please their flesh
Right, we must sew. God leaves us in the hands of our own counsel to do just that- even as He beckons and prompts us with His grace to do so.
There is no knowing God without remission of one's sin through faith and trust in the person (Jn 3:18) and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).
People came to know Christ first, by hearing His words and and witnessng His deeds. And even then they might not turn:
"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:42-43

Grace is resistible, by God's wise design.
 
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NextLevel

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The NT word of God disagrees: "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. . .heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" in his inheritance from the Father. (Ro 8:16-17)
I am wondering - do you beleive in "double-predestination" (the view that God chose from the beginning of time the people who will be saved and the people who are damned)?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as though you believe that a man has absolutley no say in whether or not he will be saved. If God decides to save him, God will give him grace through faith, and ensure that the man remains faithful until the end of his life. And if God has decided that the man is damned, then he will never receive grace or faith, or God will ensure that he loses it before he dies.

I guess another way of putting the question is, you seem to beleive that a man cannnot reject the grace that God has given him, if God has already decided to save that man?

Is that your view?
 
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The Liturgist

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Trying to live out a life of faith based solely upon your own actions and personal belief is not good enough my friend.

That’s not how Orthodox Christianity works. Indeed we expressly reject this, instead adhering to the Patristic, Apostolic teaching, which my friend @Lukaris reflected upon in his post, but I fear you didn’t grasp the point he was making, which was directly related to the idea that an overconfidence in salvation interferes with the necessary repentance for our sins.

The Patristic and Scriptural view my most pious friend @Lukaris was expressing is very succinctly expressed by St. Silouan the Athonite, who warned that every Christian must flee from two thoughts: that we have already attained holiness, and conversely, that we are beyond hope of salvation. The former leads to dangerous pride, and the latter leads to dangerous despair, causing one to give up, or perhaps live in the world, rather than apart from it, capitulating to the secular, or perhaps otherwise engaging in apostasy, or worst of all, simply languishing in despair over our salvation rather than real dynamic metanoia, which is life-giving and facilitated by the Holy Spirit.

In the Orthodox Church we regard ourselves as the chief of sinners; we confess this before partaking of the Eucharist. During the Divine Liturgy, the presbyter or bishop begs the congregation for his forgiveness. The Syriac Orthodox liturgy concludes with a request from the celebrating presbyter or bishop that the congregation continually remember him in their prayers. Orthodox Christianity is based on a life of joyful repentance, which is best experienced during the very happy time of year for us known as the Great Lent, during which we celebrate many of our most beautiful liturgies, the use of which continues into Holy Week as we worship Christ our True God praising His sacrifice for us on the Cross and celebrating his victory over death, which turns into incandescent bliss on the night of Pascha, during the midnight liturgy, where the light of the World to Come becomes evident, which in turn is followed by the joyous time of Bright Week, in which the iconostasis is opened and joyous liturgies are celebrated throughout the period of the Pentecost using a hymnal known as the Pentecostarion or Flowery Triodion, which celebrates the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ, several Holy Apostles, and the descent of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Trinity on Pentecost Sunday and Holy Spirit Monday, concluding with All Saints Day on the Sunday after Pentecost.

This liturgy is also used by Eastern Rite Catholics who became separated from the Orthodox primarily for political reasons, but whose beliefs are basically the same as ours, and who venerate Orthodox saints not venerated in the larger Roman Catholic Church such as St. Gregory Palamas, and who have married clergy, and also by the Ukrainian Lutheran Church and other Eastern-rite Protestant churches, which are a minority; they mostly only exist in areas with a substantial Eastern Catholic presence, for the Orthodox churches never experienced anything like the Protestant Reformation; indeed the Orthodox Christian will protest changes to the liturgy that move it away from sacred tradition; modifying the traditional liturgy ill-advisedly has caused schisms, which is understandable since the whole point of the Orthodox Church is the idea of Orthodoxy, which literally means “Correct Worship.”

This does not mean “homogenous worship” and indeed Orthodox worship is highly diverse, with Western Rite Orthodox parishes that worship according to the traditions of the Western church which predate the Great Schism and represent the common Patristic inheritance of all Western Christians, and likewise in the Oriental Orthodox, there are distinct and beautiful liturgies for each Oriental Orthodox church (Armenian, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Indian), and furthermore within Eastern Orthodoxy the Byzantine Rite liturgy is celebrated in a diversity of ways depending on where one is, with several styles of music such as the exquisite four part harmony of the northern Slavonic, Finnish and American church, the moving four part harmony and Syro-Byzantine Chant of the Antiochians, the traditional Byzantine Chant of the Athonite Monks and of a few others (I particularly like Bulgarian Byzantine Chant) and the three part harmony of the Georgian Orthodox.
 
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Clare73

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Right, we must sew. God leaves us in the hands of our own counsel to do just that- even as He beckons and prompts us with His grace to do so.
God does not leave us in the hands of our own power, counsel notwithstanding.
He works in us both to will and to do (Php 2:13).
People came to know Christ first, by hearing His words and and witnessng His deeds. And even then they might not turn:
"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:42-43

Grace is resistible
, by God's wise design.
Contraire. . .it's much more severe than that.

God is repugnant/unreachable to some and irresistibly appealing to others.
 
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Clare73

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I am wondering - do you beleive in "double-predestination" (the view that God chose from the beginning of time the people who will be saved and the people who are damned)?
Well, wouldn't predestination necessarily mean "double-predestination" when the outcomes are the same?
All those not predestined to salvation are there by destined to damnation.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as though you believe that a man has absolutley no say in whether or not he will be saved. If God decides to save him, God will give him grace through faith, and ensure that the man remains faithful until the end of his life. And if God has decided that the man is damned, then he will never receive grace or faith, or God will ensure that he loses it before he dies.
I guess another way of putting the question is, you seem to beleive that a man cannnot reject the grace that God has given him, if God has already decided to save that man?

Is that your view?
My view is:
all mankind is born spiritually dead, with Adam's fallen nature, and are by nature objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).
Man has no control over the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit by which man is born again (Jn 3:3-5) into eternal life, which eternal life gives faith and a new disposition.
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), without which gifting there is no faith.
 
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fhansen

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He works in us both to will and to do (Php 2:13)
That's how He works, while still allowing us to decide whether or not we'll comply, whether or not we'll will and do it.
God is repugnant/unreachable to some and irresistibly appealing to others.
That's your opinion. He wants all to repent, none to perish; He loves all (2 Pet 3:9, John 3:16).
 
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Clare73

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That's how He works, while still allowing us to decide whether or not we'll comply, whether or not we'll will and do it.
There is no decision to make after working in us "to will and to do." (Php 1:23)

Even the plain word of God in Php 1:23 is not enough for you. . .
That's your opinion. He wants all to repent, none to perish;
And yet no one can come unless the Father has enabled them (Jn 6:65).

All that the Father gives him will come (Jn 6:37).

And that means that those who do not come cannot come because they are not enabled.
He loves all (2 Pet 3:9, John 3:16).

2 Pe 3:9 - And who were the "all" Peter was addressing there?. . .they were the elect (1 Pe 1:1) and those of faith (2 Pe 1:1).

Jn 3:16 - And what is the condition for not perishing?
Why does he not remove the conditions so that none do perish?
 
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NextLevel

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Well, wouldn't predestination necessarily mean "double-predestination" when the outcomes are the same?
All those not predestined to salvation are there by destined to damnation.
I think that in one case we can say that God desires all men to be saved (in His antecedent will).

In another case we could say that God does not desire all men to be saved; that from the outset He desires certain men to be damned and creates them for express purpose of destruction.

Even though the outcomes are the same, I think there is a moral distinction between the two.
My view is:
all mankind is born spiritually dead, with Adam's fallen nature, and are by nature objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).
Man has no control over the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit by which man is born again (Jn 3:3-5) into eternal life, which eternal life gives faith and a new disposition.
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), without which gifting there is no faith.
I agree with this, except that I would say that man has free-will to receive or reject the gifts that God gives him.
 
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Clare73

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I think that in one case we can say that God desires all men to be saved (in His antecedent will).
The gospel call goes to all.

It is not God who condemns them, they condemn themselves by their sin of unbelief and rejection of the remedy.
In another case we could say that God does not desire all men to be saved; that from the outset He desires certain men to be damned and creates them for express purpose of destruction.
Even though the outcomes are the same, I think there is a moral distinction between the two.
I agree with this, except that I would say that man has free-will to receive or reject the gifts that God gives him.
Man's will is not free. . .he is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

God doesn't enable the non-elect slaves to sin to desire his saving gifts.
 
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NextLevel

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The gospel call goes to all.

It is not God who condemns them, they condemn themselves by their sin of unbelief and rejection of the remedy.

God doesn't enable the non-elect to desire his saving gifts.
We are all born condemned, as you noted above. Why do you think that God chooses to save only some?

By way of analogy, if God were on a boat with 5 life preservers, and saw 5 people drowning in the ocean, for what reason would God throw a life preserver to only John and Steve, and allow Mike, James and Mary to drown?
 
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Clare73

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We are all born condemned, as you noted above. Why do you think that God chooses to save only some?
Those decisions were made before time.
By way of analogy, if God were on a boat with 5 life preservers, and saw 5 people drowning in the ocean, for what reason would God throw a life preserver to only John and Steve, and allow Mike, James and Mary to drown?
What if God choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction, to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
 
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NextLevel

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What if God choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath (prepared for destruction), to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy?
Which is more merciful, throwing 2 life preservers in the water, or throwing 5 life preservers in the water?

Which shows more of God's power? Saving 2 people or saving 5 people?
 
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fhansen

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There is no decision to make after working in us "to will and to do." (Php 1:23)

Even the plain word of God in Php 1:23 is not enough for you. . .
The complete word of God, that includes those warnings about falling away, the possibility of which has been part of the Christian beleif since the beginning, has not been enough for you and your private, novel intepretatations.
All that the Father gives him will come (Jn 6:37).
And they can also leave: John 15:5-8 along with others I'v quoted here.
2 Pe 3:9 - And who were the "all" Peter was addressing there?. . .they were the elect (1 Pe 1:1) and those of faith (2 Pe 1:1).

Jn 3:16 - And what is the condition for not perishing?
Why does he not remove the conditions so that none do perish?
All is all, none is none and whole is whole.
"For God so loved the world..."
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

Anyone can and should believe, with no excuse as Paul tells us in Rom 1:20 based just on observing God's creation, alone. And even those Jewish leaders in Matt 12:42 believed, but apparently to no profit.
 
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Clare73

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Which is more merciful, throwing 2 life preservers in the water, or throwing 5 life preservers in the water?

Which shows more of God's power? Saving 2 people or saving 5 people?
It's not about mercy and it's not about power.

It's about God's decrees before the foundation of the world, for the sake of the glory of his justice and the glory of his mercy.
 
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NextLevel

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It's not about mercy and it's not about power.

It's about God's decrees before the foundation of the world, for the sake of the glory of his justice and the glory of his mercy.
In your view, how does capriciously saving some people and damning other people bring glory?

Let's say that a father has 5 children. The father takes the children on a boat ride and says "do not jump into the water." The children disobey the father, jump into the water, and then start to drown. So, the father decides to throw life preservers to his first two children, and let his other three children drown, even though he could have just as easily saved them. Then the father says "I saved 2 of my children and let 3 of them drown to glorify myself."

Would you call that father just and merciful? Would you call him a good father?

Or would you call him an egocentric monster?
 
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Clare73

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The complete word of God, that includes those warnings about falling away,
Yes, warnings are one of the ways God preserves the elect.
The elect heed them, the non-elect not so much.
the possibility of which has been part of the Christian beleif since the beginning, has not been enough for you and your private, novel intepretatations.
You should know it's not about "the Christian belief," it's about the word of God written.
And they can also leave: John 15:5-8 along with others I'v quoted here.

All is all, none is none and whole is whole.
"For God so loved the world..."
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2
And in the context of all the NT, that refers to Christ's sacrifice not being limited to Jewish Christians only, but to Christians worldwide.
Anyone can and should believe,
You can't make yourself believe what you do not believe.

You can't make yourself believe that it is not harmful to jump off a five-story building onto hard ground.

I know for a fact that you can't make yourself savingly believe in and trust on Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin.
with no excuse as Paul tells us in Rom 1:20 based just on observing God's creation, alone. And even those Jewish leaders in Matt 12:42 believed, but apparently to no profit.
Believing in God does not save.

Believing in (Ge 15:6) the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) saves.
 
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Clare73

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In your view, how does capriciously saving some people and damning other people bring glory?
God is both just and loving/merciful.

Both his justice and his mercy are glorified.
Let's say that a father has 5 children. The father takes the children on a boat ride and says "do not jump into the water." The children disobey the father, jump into the water, and then start to drown. So, the father decides to throw life preservers to his first two children, and let his other three children drown, even though he could have just as easily saved them. Then the father says "I saved 2 of my children and let 3 of them drown to glorify myself."
Would you call that father just and merciful? Would you call him a good father?
Or would you call him an egocentric monster?
A Biblical, rather than a fallen-human, mind would be useful here. . .

Let's say a king has one son, Adam.

Let's say that grown son rebels and builds an army loyal to him in overthrowing his father.
How many life preservers will the king be throwing to that army in the moat as it comes for him?

The unsaved are God's enemies (Ro 5:10), by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).
Only the redeemed are his children (Jn 1:12-13).
 
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fhansen

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The elect heed them, the non-elect not so much.
Wishful, unscriptural thinking.
You should know it's not about "the Christian belief," it's about the word of God written.
All Christian beliefs come from the word of God, whether written or unwritten.
And in the context of all the NT, that refers to Christ's sacrifice not being limited to Jewish Christians only, but to Christians worldwide.
Then in the context of Clare's interpretations, that may be true, not in the context of Christian interpretations.
You can't make yourself believe what you do not believe.

You can't make yourself believe that it is not harmful to jump off a five-story building onto hard ground.

I know for a fact that you can't make yourself savingly believe in and trust on Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin.
Paul says otherwise, there's no excuse. God gives us the reason and ability to believe. We can refuse, or hide, that gift of faith, or we can accept and express it.
Believing in God does not save.

Believing in (Ge 15:6) the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) saves.
Nonsense. Jesus is God. And:
"Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God."
 
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