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6,000 Years?

BNR32FAN

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I don’t understand why people can’t just understand that a 6 day creation 6000 years ago hasn’t been disproven. It seems like many people in this thread think that it has been disproven but it hasn’t. When you actually get into the details of the evidence against a 6 day created young earth you’ll find that none of that evidence is conclusive, it’s based on predictions and assumptions. Things like radiation accumulation and isotopic decay are based on the assumption that at some point these materials contained no radiation or isotopic decay but nobody actually knows that. People just refuse to accept that idea because in my opinion it seems like they don’t like the idea that scientists might be wrong even tho there’s a perfectly viable reason why they could be. You get into the discussion of light traveling billions of light years to earth and they don’t seem to like the idea that God performed a miracle to make that happen when the Bible is literally filled with miracles from cover to cover in every single book in it. I choose to believe the creation account the way it’s written because it hasn’t been disproven and it actually lines up with the rest of the miraculous theme throughout the entire Bible. I don’t question the miracles of creation just like I don’t question the rest of the miracles contained in the Bible because I actually believe them. I just don’t see why so many people think that this is a ridiculous concept.
 
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River Jordan

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Things like radiation accumulation and isotopic decay are based on the assumption that at some point these materials contained no radiation or isotopic decay but nobody actually knows that.
No, that's not accurate. Isochron dating doesn't require those assumptions, and there are also lots of other ways to date things besides radiometric dating.

Really though, does that matter to most YECs? If they found out that isochron dating methods don't require the assumptions you named, does anyone here think the YECs would change their minds? I don't.

You get into the discussion of light traveling billions of light years to earth and they don’t seem to like the idea that God performed a miracle to make that happen when the Bible is literally filled with miracles from cover to cover in every single book in it.
I don't like it because God would have to have created light from events that didn't actually happen. That seems deceitful to me.

I choose to believe the creation account the way it’s written because it hasn’t been disproven and it actually lines up with the rest of the miraculous theme throughout the entire Bible. I don’t question the miracles of creation just like I don’t question the rest of the miracles contained in the Bible because I actually believe them. I just don’t see why so many people think that this is a ridiculous concept.
I think one of the main issues in threads like these is how people like me see fellow Christians who have different views about Genesis and God's creation, and it's no problem, whereas a lot of YECs see fellow Christians with different views and they feel the need accuse them of things, call them names, and question their faith.

Maybe that's the real question for the YECs? Why does it seem to bother you so much to see Christians who have different views?
 
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BNR32FAN

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No, that's not accurate. Isochron dating doesn't require those assumptions, and there are also lots of other ways to date things besides radiometric dating.

Really though, does that matter to most YECs? If they found out that isochron dating methods don't require the assumptions you named, does anyone here think the YECs would change their minds? I don't.
Please elaborate. You’re making a claim and not backing it up. You’re basically saying “nuh uh” and then not giving any explanation or example to support your position.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don't like it because God would have to have created light from events that didn't actually happen. That seems deceitful to me.
Or He could’ve created the stars and sped up the light or compressed time. Who knows? It’s not anymore implausible than a man walking on water or coming back to life after being dead for 3 days.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think one of the main issues in threads like these is how people like me see fellow Christians who have different views about Genesis and God's creation, and it's no problem, whereas a lot of YECs see fellow Christians with different views and they feel the need accuse them of things, call them names, and question their faith.
I haven’t accused anyone of anything. Now you’re stereotyping YEC believers.
 
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River Jordan

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Please elaborate. You’re making a claim and not backing it up. You’re basically saying “nuh uh” and then not giving any explanation or example to support your position.
If you want, I can provide a source that explains isochron dating methods, but before I do can you address my question about whether it matters to you? If you find out it doesn't require those assumptions, then what? Does anything change for you?

Or He could’ve created the stars and sped up the light or compressed time. Who knows? It’s not anymore implausible than a man walking on water or coming back to life after being dead for 3 days.
That's fine if you want to believe it, but I just don't see any reason for it.

I haven’t accused anyone of anything. Now you’re stereotyping YEC believers.
This thread is a good example of what I was talking about.

Here's a good summary of how isochron dating works and why it doesn't require assumptions about initial daughter elements or later infusion of daughter elements: Isochron Dating
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you want, I can provide a source that explains isochron dating methods, but before I do can you address my question about whether it matters to you? If you find out it doesn't require those assumptions, then what? Does anything change for you?
I’ve already read all about how the dating methods work. That’s why I can confidently say that they’re either based on the assumption that the materials either didn’t contain any radiation at some point or they didn’t contain any daughter isotopes at some point. Both of these are assumptions that they infer that they can’t actually test or prove. Don’t get me wrong it’s completely logical to make those assumptions but then apply that same logic to a man walking on water or coming back to life after being dead for 3 days. Miracles aren’t supposed to be logical. The very definition of the word mandates an illogical event that can’t be explained by natural occurrence or science. Jesus didn’t walk on water to indicate that it was a natural occurrence or a logical event, just like God didn’t create the universe and everything in it in 6 days 6000 years ago as a natural occurrence or a logical event. Yet the Bible does say that both of these events did in fact take place.
 
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River Jordan

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I’ve already read all about how the dating methods work. That’s why I can confidently say that they’re either based on the assumption that the materials either didn’t contain any radiation at some point or they didn’t contain any daughter isotopes at some point. Both of these are assumptions that they infer that they can’t actually test or prove.
But that's not correct. You asked for a source showing how isochron methods don't require those assumptions and I gave you one. The page also describes how the methods test for contaminations.

Why did you ask for it?

Don’t get me wrong it’s completely logical to make those assumptions but then apply that same logic to a man walking on water or coming back to life after being dead for 3 days. Miracles aren’t supposed to be logical. The very definition of the word mandates an illogical event that can’t be explained by natural occurrence or science. Jesus didn’t walk on water to indicate that it was a natural occurrence or a logical event, just like God didn’t create the universe and everything in it in 6 days 6000 years ago as a natural occurrence or a logical event. Yet the Bible does say that both of these events did in fact take place.
I don't see why God would manipulate radioactive decay or parent/daughter element ratios, just like how I don't see why God would create starlight for events that didn't really happen.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That's fine if you want to believe it, but I just don't see any reason for it.
What about Christ’s resurrection? Apply the same logic and reasoning that scientists use on the dating methods to Christ’s resurrection. Scientists can only make predictions based on what they can consistently observe about the accumulation of radiation and isotopic decay. Apply that same logic to what we observe about people being dead for 3 days. How is it that people who hold so dearly to the scientific predictions based on observation are able to completely disregard all that when it comes to the resurrection of Christ? I mean it just seems like an inconsistent line of reasoning in my opinion.
 
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River Jordan

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What about Christ’s resurrection? Apply the same logic and reasoning that scientists use on the dating methods to Christ’s resurrection. Scientists can only make predictions based on what they can consistently observe about the accumulation of radiation and isotopic decay. Apply that same logic to what we observe about people being dead for 3 days. How is it that people who hold so dearly to the scientific predictions based on observation are able to completely disregard all that when it comes to the resurrection of Christ? I mean it just seems like an inconsistent line of reasoning in my opinion.
I don't see those as equivalent situations. The miracle of the Resurrection had a very clear and obvious purpose, but I don't see a purpose for manipulating starlight or radioactive decay.
 
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BNR32FAN

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But that's not correct. You asked for a source showing how isochron methods don't require those assumptions and I gave you one. The page also describes how the methods test for contaminations.

Why did you ask for it?
I was replying to each part individually. The article you posted doesn’t say anything about knowing the ratio of parent to daughter isotopes when the material was created. They can’t possibly know that. All they can do is measure the ratio of parent to daughter isotopes to calculate the predicted age of the material. Hence their predicted age is based on the assumption that at some point in time that material didn’t possess and daughter isotopes. Thats all they’re doing. It’s like walking into a room with a faucet dripping water into a glass and calculating how long the glass has been sitting under the dripping faucet by measuring the drip rate and the amount of water in the glass. You have to assume that the drip rate was constant and that the glass was empty when it was placed there. So you can make that calculation but that calculation is only valid if the drip rate was constant and the glass was empty when it was placed there. So the conclusion is contingent upon those two factors being true. If either of those factors are false then the calculation is going to be incorrect.
 
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River Jordan

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I was replying to each part individually. The article you posted doesn’t say anything about knowing the ratio of parent to daughter isotopes when the material was created. They can’t possibly know that. All they can do is measure the ratio of parent to daughter isotopes to calculate the predicted age of the material. Hence their predicted age is based on the assumption that at some point in time that material didn’t possess and daughter isotopes. Thats all they’re doing.
You didn't read it all the way through, did you? Everything you just said is covered in the article. Why did you ask for it if you weren't going to read it?
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don't see those as equivalent situations. The miracle of the Resurrection had a very clear and obvious purpose, but I don't see a purpose for manipulating starlight or radioactive decay.
Yeah I mean God could’ve chosen 6 days or 6 trillion years, neither of us can say why He chose whatever time frame He chose. The point is that the Bible said He did it in 6 days. He could’ve easily said 6 trillion years or 13 billion years but He didn’t. So why should I question that? If I’m going to question it based on scientific observation then why wouldn’t I apply that same observation to all of the miracles contained in the Bible like the resurrection for example? Whether there was a purpose or not seems irrelevant to me. Just because I don’t know why God chose to create the earth in 6 days doesn’t necessarily mean that there wasn’t a purpose for that time frame.
 
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River Jordan

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Yeah I mean God could’ve chosen 6 days or 6 trillion years, neither of us can say why He chose whatever time frame He chose. The point is that the Bible said He did it in 6 days. He could’ve easily said 6 trillion years or 13 billion years but He didn’t. So why should I question that? If I’m going to question it based on scientific observation then why wouldn’t I apply that same observation to all of the miracles contained in the Bible like the resurrection for example? Whether there was a purpose or not seems irrelevant to me. Just because I don’t know why God chose to create the earth in 6 days doesn’t necessarily mean that there wasn’t a purpose for that time frame.
That's the entire point with all this, isn't it? It doesn't have anything to do with dating methods, decay rates, parent/daughter ratios, or any of that. It's about how you interpret scripture as describing young earth creationism, which is entirely okay. So maybe stop trying to argue over science when your views are actually based in how you read scripture?
 
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BNR32FAN

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You didn't read it all the way through, did you? Everything you just said is covered in the article. Why did you ask for it if you weren't going to read it?
I’m sorry I’m at work and I don’t have time to read the whole thing. Can you be more specific about where it actually discusses this? I read thru the first couple of pages then had to skim thru the rest and I can’t find it.
 
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River Jordan

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I’m sorry I’m at work and I don’t have time to read the whole thing. Can you be more specific about where it actually discusses this? I read thru the first couple of pages then had to skim thru the rest and I can’t find it.
I can do that, but before I go through the effort can you please answer the question I asked earlier? Does this really matter to you? If you find out isochron dating doesn't require and/or tests the assumptions you described, then what?
 
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BNR32FAN

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That's the entire point with all this, isn't it? It doesn't have anything to do with dating methods, decay rates, parent/daughter ratios, or any of that. It's about how you interpret scripture as describing young earth creationism, which is entirely okay. So maybe stop trying to argue over science when your views are actually based in how you read scripture?
No the entire point of bringing up the dating methods was explained in the first post that I mentioned them in. And as far as interpretation if you can show me a single verse anywhere in scripture that uses the Hebrew word Yovm in reference to any period of time other than a literal 24 hour period or daytime as opposed to night time, I’d love to see it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I can do that, but before I go through the effort can you please answer the question I asked earlier? Does this really matter to you? If you find out isochron dating doesn't require and/or tests the assumptions you described, then what?
I’ve spent numerous hours researching this topic. And I don’t mean reading or listening to commentaries, I mean actually studying the subject first myself, both the science side of it and the theological side of it. So yeah it greatly interests me and as for what I would do if the article does say what you’re suggesting, I would compare it to other sources to test its credibility.
 
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River Jordan

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No the entire point of bringing up the dating methods was explained in the first post that I mentioned them in.
I guess I still don't understand. If it turns out isochron dating doesn't require and/or tests the assumptions you posted, then what?

And as far as interpretation if you can show me a single verse anywhere in scripture that uses the Hebrew word Yovm in reference to any period of time other than a literal 24 hour period or daytime as opposed to night time, I’d love to see it.
Scriptural interpretations are not something I enjoy debating. Sorry, but I've had some very bad experiences that I don't want to risk repeating.

I’ve spent numerous hours researching this topic. And I don’t mean reading or listening to commentaries, I mean actually studying the subject first myself, both the science side of it and the theological side of it. So yeah it greatly interests me and as for what I would do if the article does say what you’re suggesting, I would compare it to other sources to test its credibility.
You didn't answer what I asked and that's a couple of times you've done it. But I won't push, so here's some of the material from the article:

Initial daughter product

The amount of initial D is not required or assumed to be zero. The greater the initial D-to-Di ratio, the further the initial horizontal line sits above the X-axis. But the computed age is not affected.

If one of the samples happened to contain no P (it would plot where the isochron line intercepts the Y-axis), then its quantity of D wouldn't change over time -- because it would have no parent atoms to produce daughter atoms. Whether there's a data point on the Y-axis or not, the Y-intercept of the line doesn't change as the slope of the isochron line does (as shown in Figure 5). Therefore, the Y-intercept of the isochron line gives the initial global ratio of D to Di.

For each sample, it would be possible to measure the amount of the Di, and (using the ratio identified by the Y-intercept of the isochron plot) calculate the amount of D that was present when the sample formed. That quantity of D could be subtracted out of each sample, and it would then be possible to derive a simple age (by the equation introduced in the first section of this document) for each sample. Each such age would match the result given by the isochron.

Contamination - parent isotope​

Gain or loss of P changes the X-values of the data points:

fig-06.gif


In order to make the figures easy to read (and quick to draw), the examples in this paper include few data points. While isochrons are performed with that few data points, the best ones include a larger quantity of data. If the isochron line has a distinctly non-zero slope, and a fairly large number of data points, the nearly inevitable result of contamination (failure of the system to remain closed) will be that the fit of the data to a line will be destroyed.

For example, consider an event which removes P. The data points will tend to move varying distances, for the different minerals will have varying resistance to loss of P, as well as varying levels of Di:

fig-07.gif


The end result is that the data are nearly certain not to remain colinear:

fig-08.gif


Even in our simple four-data-point example isochron, a change to two of the samples...

fig-09.gif


... would require exact changes to the remaining two samples in order for the data to remain colinear:

fig-10.gif


Note: In the special case where the isochron line has a zero slope (indicating zero age), then gain or loss of P may move the data points, but they will all still fall on the same horizontal line. In other words, random gain or loss of P does not affect a zero-age isochron. This is an important point. If the Earth were as young as young-Earth creationists insist, then the "contamination" which they suggest to invalidate dating methods would have no noticeable effect on the results.

Contamination - daughter isotope​

In the case of Rb/Sr isochron dating, the most common form of isotope migration is a preferential loss of radiogenic daughter (87Sr). Faure (1986, p. 123) notes:

Moreover, the daughter atoms produced by decay in a mineral are isotopes of different elements and have different ionic charges and radii compared with their parents. The energy released during the decay may produce dislocations or even destroy the crystal lattice locally, thus making it all the more easy for the radiogenic daughters to escape.
[...]
The observed behavior of the minerals can generally be treated as though it had been caused solely by the migration of radiogenic 87Sr among the constituent minerals of a rock.
This will change the vertical position of the data points:

fig-11.gif


As with gain or loss of P, in the general case it is highly unlikely that the result will be an isochron with colinear data points:

fig-12.gif
 
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FaithT

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I guess I still don't understand. If it turns out isochron dating doesn't require and/or tests the assumptions you posted, then what?


Scriptural interpretations are not something I enjoy debating. Sorry, but I've had some very bad experiences that I don't want to risk repeating.


You didn't answer what I asked and that's a couple of times you've done it. But I won't push, so here's some of the material from the article:

Initial daughter product

The amount of initial D is not required or assumed to be zero. The greater the initial D-to-Di ratio, the further the initial horizontal line sits above the X-axis. But the computed age is not affected.

If one of the samples happened to contain no P (it would plot where the isochron line intercepts the Y-axis), then its quantity of D wouldn't change over time -- because it would have no parent atoms to produce daughter atoms. Whether there's a data point on the Y-axis or not, the Y-intercept of the line doesn't change as the slope of the isochron line does (as shown in Figure 5). Therefore, the Y-intercept of the isochron line gives the initial global ratio of D to Di.

For each sample, it would be possible to measure the amount of the Di, and (using the ratio identified by the Y-intercept of the isochron plot) calculate the amount of D that was present when the sample formed. That quantity of D could be subtracted out of each sample, and it would then be possible to derive a simple age (by the equation introduced in the first section of this document) for each sample. Each such age would match the result given by the isochron.

Contamination - parent isotope​

Gain or loss of P changes the X-values of the data points:

fig-06.gif


In order to make the figures easy to read (and quick to draw), the examples in this paper include few data points. While isochrons are performed with that few data points, the best ones include a larger quantity of data. If the isochron line has a distinctly non-zero slope, and a fairly large number of data points, the nearly inevitable result of contamination (failure of the system to remain closed) will be that the fit of the data to a line will be destroyed.

For example, consider an event which removes P. The data points will tend to move varying distances, for the different minerals will have varying resistance to loss of P, as well as varying levels of Di:

fig-07.gif


The end result is that the data are nearly certain not to remain colinear:

fig-08.gif


Even in our simple four-data-point example isochron, a change to two of the samples...

fig-09.gif


... would require exact changes to the remaining two samples in order for the data to remain colinear:

fig-10.gif


Note: In the special case where the isochron line has a zero slope (indicating zero age), then gain or loss of P may move the data points, but they will all still fall on the same horizontal line. In other words, random gain or loss of P does not affect a zero-age isochron. This is an important point. If the Earth were as young as young-Earth creationists insist, then the "contamination" which they suggest to invalidate dating methods would have no noticeable effect on the results.

Contamination - daughter isotope​

In the case of Rb/Sr isochron dating, the most common form of isotope migration is a preferential loss of radiogenic daughter (87Sr). Faure (1986, p. 123) notes:


This will change the vertical position of the data points:

fig-11.gif


As with gain or loss of P, in the general case it is highly unlikely that the result will be an isochron with colinear data points:

fig-12.gif
 
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