More Proof of a Post-Tribulation Rapture

[Garrett.theo]

Further proof of a post-tribulation rapture is seen in the study of the reoccurring phrase: "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder". If you don't already know, this phrase appears 4 different times in the Bible (all of which are in the Book of Revelation). It serves as a mutual point of intersection between 3 of those verses with the remaining verse telling us the significance behind the phrase itself.

That latter verse is found in John's vision of a Throne in Heaven, and is the first time we see this phrase used in the Book of Revelation. It reads:

“… there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder…In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures…Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

’You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.’” — Revelation 4:2b-5a,6a,9–11

Clearly, the person on said throne is Jesus, and the phrase "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder" is a descriptor of his physical appearance. That being said, when we see this same phrase used in the other 3 verses in the book of Revelation, we can understand that they, too, are signifying the physical presence of The Lord.

For example, when we read the description of the pouring out of the 7th bowl, we're told:

“The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, ‘It is done!’ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake… From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people...” – Revelation 16:17-18a,21a

This clue clearly tells us that Jesus is physically present at this time, which we can agree on as it's commonly accepted that the 7th bowl marks the end of the Great Tribulation and return of Jesus to earth.

Yet, by no coincidence, this same phrase is also found in sounding of the 7th trumpet, as highlighted:

“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,… Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.” – Revelation 11:15a,19​

This not tells us that these two visions are undoubtedly connected (which is further evident by the fact that they both mention an earthquake and a hailstorm), but it also serves as a clue as to when the rapture of believers will take place. As I'm sure you're familiar with, when Paul was writing to the Corinthian church about the Resurrection of Life (i.e., The Rapture), he said:

“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” — 1 Corinthians 15:51–52

Being that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet of the series mentioned in Revelation and it marks the return of the Lord, we can confidently conclude that the rapture of believers takes place at the very end of The Great Tribulation!


Further detail about the rapture, the connection between the trumpets and the bowls of Revelation, and how God will protect His people from His wrath during the time of The Great Tribulation can be found in this article: The Great Tribulation and The Day of The Lord

 

[RandyPNW]

Further proof of a post-tribulation rapture is seen in the study of the reoccurring phrase: "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder". If you don't already know, this phrase appears 4 different times in the Bible (all of which are in the Book of Revelation). It serves as a mutual point of intersection between 3 of those verses with the remaining verse telling us the significance behind the phrase itself.

Thankyou brother for your post. I also am strongly Postrib, and have not heard this particular argument before. It's *very good!* Of course, there are many, many other arguments proving Postrib, but together I can't see any justification for an "any-moment Rapture of the Church."

 

[Garrett.theo]

Thankyou brother for your post. I also am strongly Postrib, and have not heard this particular argument before. It's *very good!* Of course, there are many, many other arguments proving Postrib, but together I can't see any justification for an "any-moment Rapture of the Church."

Sure thing, I'm glad to have strengthened your faith! I credit The Lord for revealing this to me recently--as he called me to study the book of Revelation more in-depth.

 

[RandyPNW]

Sure thing, I'm glad to have strengthened your faith! I credit The Lord for revealing this to me recently--as he called me to study the book of Revelation more in-depth.

Yes, that bit was so good that I'm interested in anything more the Lord shows you. What you shared seems obviously from the Lord to me. I've gotten my influences from many sources, and you're another good one. Keep up the good work!

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

And what would be the point of post-trib rapture? We get raptured to clouds just to come down again? No.

Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:1–3)

Christ is coming to get us home, after the trib is judgement, no one is going to Father's house.

The second coming must be distinguished from the rapture of the church prior to the seven-year tribulation. At the rapture, Christ comes for His saints (John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). At the second coming, He comes with them. At the rapture, Christ meets His saints in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to take them to heaven (John 14:2-3). At the second coming, He descends with them from heaven to the earth. (Zechariah 14:4).

Some attempt to harmonize those two distinctions by arguing that believers meet Christ in the air, then descend to earth to with Him. By so doing, they essentially make the rapture and the second coming the same event. But that view trivializes the rapture. There is not a hint of judgment in passages describing the rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, but judgment plays a prominent role in the second coming (Revelation 19:11; Revelation 15, Revelation 17-21.) The dramatic signs accompanying the second coming, such as the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the disruption of the “powers of the heavens” (Matthew 24: 29-30), are not mentioned in the passages describing the rapture. In its description of the second coming, Revelation 19 does not mention a rapture of living believers (1 Corinthians 15:51-52), or a resurrection of dead believers (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

The bride of Christ is also not going to be on earth during antichrist and God pouring His wrath.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. (1 Thessalonians 5:9–11)

So no, Christians won't be here during the tribulation.
The book of revelation describes a 7 year tribulation, also known as Daniel's 70th week or the week of Jacob's trouble. The pouring of the bowels starts the second half of the 7 year tribulation. That's the timeline. The Church is not on Earth from Rev chapter 4, the Church is in Heaven during the 7 year tribulation

The timeline of revelation:
Chapters 1-3: age of the Church
Chapters 4-18: (Beginning of chapter 4 describes the rapture.) Daniel's 70th week, a.k.a. the week of Jacob's trouble, the 7 year tribulation
Chapter 5: God's throne in Heaven, glorified Church
Chapter 6: The Lamb of God breaks the seals, first 6 seals out of 7
Chapter 7: 1st interlude (between 6th and 7th seal), Designation of the 144,000 from Israel. Gentile believers from the tribulation
Chapter 8: The 7th seal is broken and it starts the blowing of trumpets, 7 angels will blow the trumpet
Chapters 10-14: 2nd interlude between blowing of the 6 and 7th trumpet. The second interlude - mighty angel, 2 witnesses, woman and dragon, antichrist and his empire
Chapters 15-16: The 7th trumpet announces 7 vials of the wrath of God which will be poured 1 by 1, now we are in the second half of tribulation, this will be the biggest persecution of the Jews there ever was. Between the 6th and 7th vial of wrath we have the 3rd and final interlude, preparation for Armageddon.
Chapters 17-18: 7th vial of God's wrath - Judgement of Babylon
Chapter 19: Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven, Armageddon on Earth
Chapter 20: Satan bound for 1000 years, resurrection, literal millennium Kingdom. Satan released and the end of 1000 years, Gog and Magog. Judgement: Fire from Heaven. The big white throne, resurrection.
Chapter 21-22: New Earth and New Heaven, New Jerusalem, eternity.

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; 8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

So the saints are clothed in Heaven. That's why when they come with the Lord to Earth, they are already dressed in the fine linen

Rev 19 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

Furthemore, if the rapture was post tribulation, it would contradict what the Lord said that we do not not the day or the hour. If rapture is post trib, then we only need to count 7 years from the start of the tribulation to know the day.

Rev 3 10 talks about pre trib rapture 'Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.'

And so does Isaiah 26 20 'Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you, hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.'

2 Thes 2 also does not allow for post trib rapture.

 

[Garrett.theo]

Yes, that bit was so good that I'm interested in anything more the Lord shows you. What you shared seems obviously from the Lord to me. I've gotten my influences from many sources, and you're another good one. Keep up the good work!

Well, since you already know and believe part of what I have written in my article (The Great Tribulation and The Day of The Lord), I welcome you to read the rest. If you do, you will learn what The Lord has revealed to me about the 7 trumpets and bowls, and you will know about the Great Tribulation in astounding detail! If you have any questions about it, you can ask me and I will answer them!

 

[RandyPNW]

Well, since you already know and believe part of what I have written in my article (The Great Tribulation and The Day of The Lord), I welcome you to read the rest. If you do, you will learn what The Lord has revealed to me about the 7 trumpets and bowls, and you will know about the Great Tribulation in astounding detail! If you have any questions about it, you can ask me and I will answer them!

I'm afraid almost nobody agrees with me on the Tribulation! I've studied it so long, and have so many issues with it, that now that I feel I finally have it, nobody agrees with me.

Nobody really refutes my position--how can they? Jesus said it!

But it's sad that nobody takes my views seriously for the simple reason that it isn't popular now in the current phase of prophetic views we're in. It's very similar to Postrib belief, existing in a climate where 90% of the bookstores feature a Prophecy section with Pretrib views.

My belief sounds a lot like Preterism, but it isn't. I'm a Futurist, but I believe Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" in Luke 21 as being a "Jewish Punishment," beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm not really looking to be led by anybody. I just find an interesting, inspired view on occasion. And you just gave me one. For that I *thank* you!

 

[Garrett.theo]

@Ivan Hlavanda

I read you post and it's filled with so many errors that it's impossible for me to number them all!

To begin, Paul's teaching about the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, parallels his words to the Corinthian church found in 1 Corinthians 15:51–52, as demonstrated below:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17​

1 Corinthians 15:51–52​

"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."​

“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”

Not only were these letters both written by Paul, but they both mention a trumpet and demonstrate that not all Christians will die before Christ returns, as highlighted respectively. I bring this up for two primary reasons.

1. To show you that the passage where we get the word "rapture" from (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) coincides with the passage that tells us it takes place "at the last trumpet" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
2. To prove to you that Christians are, in fact, alive when Jesus returns. Which tells us that Christians will certainly go through the Great Tribulation!

On a side note, Zechariah 14 depicts something entirely different than what you're making it out to be. For it to be correctly understood, will require a lot of foreknowledge of scripture and the ability to recognize and connect patterned language and descriptive imagery. I would encourage you to not focus too hard on Zechariah 14 until you've gotten a better understanding of The Book of Revelation.

For example, the timeline you present for end time events falls inline with the order it is written in Revelation, making it seem like the Book of Revelation was written to depict end time events in Chronological order. The problem with that view is that it isn't supported anywhere in scripture and is easily refutable!

As an example, in Revelation 7 we're told of a great multitude of people in Heaven wearing white robes who "came out of the Great Tribulation." Yet, we also know that the Great Tribulation is concluded with the pouring out of the 7th bowl, which is seen in Revelation 16. By your logic, The Great Tribulation ended before it even began.

Additionally, you say the 7th trumpet introduces the 7 bowls, yet in my original post (#1) I demonstrated exactly how the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are separate visions describing the same event. That evidence showed that one can't come before the other!


I hope these answers will clear up some of the misunderstandings you have about events relating to end time prophecy.

 

[Garrett.theo]

I'm afraid almost nobody agrees with me on the Tribulation! I've studied it so long, and have so many issues with it, that now that I feel I finally have it, nobody agrees with me.

Sometimes, I feel like there are times where we all feel like this! Granted, everyone's belief is always different than others in some sort of way.

My belief sounds a lot like Preterism, but it isn't. I'm a Futurist, but I believe Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" in Luke 21 as being a "Jewish Punishment," beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm not really looking to be led by anybody. I just find an interesting, inspired view on occasion. And you just gave me one. For that I *thank* you!

I'm kind of familiar with that view. Although, the teaching that I'm familiar with is that the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD is an allusion of the Great Tribulation to come.

Thank you! I'm glad to have made a positive impact in your life!

 

[RandyPNW]

@Ivan Hlavanda

I read you post and it's filled with so many errors that it's impossible for me to number them all!

To begin, Paul's teaching about the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, parallels his words to the Corinthian church found in 1 Corinthians 15:51–52, as demonstrated below:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17​

1 Corinthians 15:51–52​

"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."​

“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”

Not only were these letters both written by Paul, but they both mention a trumpet and demonstrate that not all Christians will die before Christ returns, as highlighted respectively. I bring this up for two primary reasons.

1. To show you that the passage where we get the word "rapture" from (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) coincides with the passage that tells us it takes place "at the last trumpet" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
2. To prove to you that Christians are, in fact, alive when Jesus returns. Which tells us that Christians will certainly go through the Great Tribulation!

On a side note, Zechariah 14 depicts something entirely different than what you're making it out to be. For it to be correctly understood, will require a lot of foreknowledge of scripture and the ability to recognize and connect patterned language and descriptive imagery. I would encourage you to not focus too hard on Zechariah 14 until you've gotten a better understanding of The Book of Revelation.

For example, the timeline you present for end time events falls inline with the order it is written in Revelation, making it seem like the Book of Revelation was written to depict end time events in Chronological order. The problem with that view is that it isn't supported anywhere in scripture and is easily refutable!

As an example, in Revelation 7 we're told of a great multitude of people in Heaven wearing white robes who "came out of the Great Tribulation." Yet, we also know that the Great Tribulation is concluded with the pouring out of the 7th bowl, which is seen in Revelation 16. By your logic, The Great Tribulation ended before it even began.

Additionally, you say the 7th trumpet introduces the 7 bowls, yet in my original post (#1) I demonstrated exactly how the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are separate visions describing the same event. That evidence showed that one can't come before the other!


I hope these answers will clear up some of the misunderstandings you have about events relating to end time prophecy.

Valid points. Paul wrote both 2 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15, and both cover the same territory, including the "last trumpet," or the trumpet associated with our resurrection.

And the book of Revelation cannot be possibly entirely chronological in order of the visions. Many are repetitive, covering the same territory with different facets, include flashbacks, prolepses, etc.

It is a single narrative that "appears" to be chronological in John's time frame, but he is seeing it "on the Lord's day," which may be a very mystical kind of day, replete with non-chronological visions of the future.

 

[RandyPNW]

Sometimes, I feel like there are times where we all feel like this! Granted, everyone's belief is always different than others in some sort of way.


I'm kind of familiar with that view. Although, the teaching that I'm familiar with is that the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD is an allusion of the Great Tribulation to come.

Thank you! I'm glad to have made a positive impact in your life!

Usually, the Great Tribulation is looked at in either Preterist or Futurist terms. It either referred to the actual battle in which Jerusalem fell in 70 AD or it refers to the Reign of Antichrist in the future.

I hold to neither of these views because my view of the Great Tribulation, as defined by Jesus in Luke 21, integrates both aspects into it. As I said, I believe Jesus defined the Great Tribulation, or Great Distress, in Luke 21 as only starting in 70 AD and ending at the Return of Christ. This accomodates both the 70 AD event and the 2nd Coming.

The essential matter, in my perspective, is how Jesus defined it in Luke 21, and not in how we might characterize it in Revelation with the Reign of Antichrist. Jesus characterized it, quite explicitly, as a "Jewish Punishment," meaning that the prophecy was a prophecy directed specifically at Israel and on behalf of Israel's future. This should be of no surprise because the prophecy was given before the international Church had even begun, when Israel was still God's only chosen nation.

Using this definition of the Great Tribulation would indicate that it is synonymous with what we call the "Jewish Diaspora," encompassing the entire NT age until Christ returns. This obviously would include the Reign of Antichrist, which would likely be just one more affliction Israel has to experience in the present age.

But thanks for your understanding. I do see the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, particularly in the 66-70 AD time frame, as possibly "alluding" to a future Great Tribulation in the time of Antichrist. At any rate, I don't deny there will be a future Antichrist and a 3.5 year reign of terror.

We should keep in mind that when nations called to be "nations of God" fall away and suffer punishment, or chastisement, from God as a consequence, believers suffer along with those nations and suffer, as well, from the sins that have brought on the punishment to begin with.

Clearly, when the Jewish People were falling away from Christ, the Rabbinic Jewish movement in opposition to Christianity began to persecute Christians. This may have hastened on their "punishment" in 70 AD?

So, we often relate the "Great Tribulation" with Christian suffering and martyrdom, to some degree. But the original focus was, I believe, on the punishment of a nation called of God and yet running away from that call.

I don't get feisty when people disagree with me. I'm used to it.

 

[RandyPNW]

And what would be the point of post-trib rapture? We get raptured to clouds just to come down again?

I think the point is, the Scriptures indicate that it will happen in this way. And it will take place in an instant, in the "twinkling of an eye." So your protest has little value. If we return as quick as we leave, then there is no problem over "making the trip."

But why go at all? I think that's a legitimate question. I think it's because we must receive our glorified bodies in heaven before Christ returns, so that we're coming back clean, from heaven--a clean place. But as I said, it is virtually instantaneous. As Jesus had to go to heaven to receive his glorified body, so must we, apparently?

 

[Garrett.theo]

Usually, the Great Tribulation is looked at in either Preterist or Futurist terms. It either referred to the actual battle in which Jerusalem fell in 70 AD or it refers to the Reign of Antichrist in the future.

I hold to neither of these views because my view of the Great Tribulation, as defined by Jesus in Luke 21, integrates both aspects into it. As I said, I believe Jesus defined the Great Tribulation, or Great Distress, in Luke 21 as only starting in 70 AD and ending at the Return of Christ. This accomodates both the 70 AD event and the 2nd Coming.

The essential matter, in my perspective, is how Jesus defined it in Luke 21, and not in how we might characterize it in Revelation with the Reign of Antichrist. Jesus characterized it, quite explicitly, as a "Jewish Punishment," meaning that the prophecy was a prophecy directed specifically at Israel and on behalf of Israel's future. This should be of no surprise because the prophecy was given before the international Church had even begun, when Israel was still God's only chosen nation.

Using this definition of the Great Tribulation would indicate that it is synonymous with what we call the "Jewish Diaspora," encompassing the entire NT age until Christ returns. This obviously would include the Reign of Antichrist, which would likely be just one more affliction Israel has to experience in the present age.

But thanks for your understanding. I do see the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, particularly in the 66-70 AD time frame, as possibly "alluding" to a future Great Tribulation in the time of Antichrist. At any rate, I don't deny there will be a future Antichrist and a 3.5 year reign of terror.

We should keep in mind that when nations called to be "nations of God" fall away and suffer punishment, or chastisement, from God as a consequence, believers suffer along with those nations and suffer, as well, from the sins that have brought on the punishment to begin with.

Clearly, when the Jewish People were falling away from Christ, the Rabbinic Jewish movement in opposition to Christianity began to persecute Christians. This may have hastened on their "punishment" in 70 AD?

So, we often relate the "Great Tribulation" with Christian suffering and martyrdom, to some degree. But the original focus was, I believe, on the punishment of a nation called of God and yet running away from that call.

I don't get feisty when people disagree with me. I'm used to it.

Ok, so if I'm understanding this correctly, you view The Great Tribulation as a continual event beginning from the fall of Jerusalem to the return of The Lord!? That's certainly a new proposition to me! Although, I view Jesus' words in Matthew 24/Luke 21 as parallels to the seals found in Revelation, as seen below:

Jesus' Words​	Revelations Seals​
“Jesus answered: ‘Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.’” – Matthew 24:4-5​	“I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” – Revelation 6:1-2​
“You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.” – Matthew 24:6-7a​	“When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, ‘Come!’ Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.” – Revelation 6:3-4​
“There will be famines… in various places.” – Matthew 24:7b​	“When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, ‘Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages…’” – Revelation 6:5-6a​
“‘Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith…’” – Matthew 24:9-10a​	“When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him.” – Revelation 6:7-8a​
“Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ ‘Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.’” – Matthew 24:29-30​	“I watched as he opened the sixth seal… The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?’” – Revelation 6:12-13, 15-17​

While some of these may not seem like obvious parallels (specifically the first seal), a bit of rational thinking and observation tells us that these verses, as paralleled, are there to complement each other and expand on the a details of a particular set of events.

I go over this in another article of mine, but I don't feel like I articulated my logic in it as well as I have in some of my other articles. But aside from that, the reason why I believe the Great Tribulation is a specifically a future event is because if we look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24, he uses the term "birth pains" to describe what can be paralleled with the first 3 seals.

"Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. [first seal] You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. [second seal] There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. [third seal] All these are the beginning of birth pains." -- Matthew 24:4-8

It isn't until Jesus is talking about the persecution of his people does he say: "then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." Some translations say "great tribulation."

This tells us that the first 3 seals must happen prior to the time of The Great Tribulation. While this ultimately comes down to what people believe the first 3 seals are and if they've already happened, I personally don't believe they have. In this case, if the Great Tribulation coincides with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we must ask ourselves: Did the things Jesus say would happen, in the order he said they would happen, occur just before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD? I've heard some arguments claiming they have, but I don't subscribe to them because while there are similarities, the famine the took place during the siege didn't happen before it. This is one of the reasons why I view Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD, more so, as an allusion of things to come!

 

[RandyPNW]

Ok, so if I'm understanding this correctly, you view The Great Tribulation as a continual event beginning from the fall of Jerusalem to the return of The Lord!? That's certainly a new proposition to me! Although, I view Jesus' words in Matthew 24/Luke 21 as parallels to the seals found in Revelation, as seen below:

Jesus' Words​	Revelations Seals​
“Jesus answered: ‘Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.’” – Matthew 24:4-5​	“I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” – Revelation 6:1-2​
“You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.” – Matthew 24:6-7a​	“When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, ‘Come!’ Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.” – Revelation 6:3-4​
“There will be famines… in various places.” – Matthew 24:7b​	“When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, ‘Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages…’” – Revelation 6:5-6a​
“‘Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith…’” – Matthew 24:9-10a​	“When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him.” – Revelation 6:7-8a​
“Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ ‘Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.’” – Matthew 24:29-30​	“I watched as he opened the sixth seal… The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?’” – Revelation 6:12-13, 15-17​

While some of these may not seem like obvious parallels (specifically the first seal), a bit of rational thinking and observation tells us that these verses, as paralleled, are there to complement each other and expand on the a details of a particular set of events.

I go over this in another article of mine, but I don't feel like I articulated my logic in it as well as I have in some of my other articles. But aside from that, the reason why I believe the Great Tribulation is a specifically a future event is because if we look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24, he uses the term "birth pains" to describe what can be paralleled with the first 3 seals.



It isn't until Jesus is talking about the persecution of his people does he say: "then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." Some translations say "great tribulation."

This tells us that the first 3 seals must happen prior to the time of The Great Tribulation. While this ultimately comes down to what people believe the first 3 seals are and if they've already happened, I personally don't believe they have. In this case, if the Great Tribulation coincides with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we must ask ourselves: Did the things Jesus say would happen, in the order he said they would happen, occur just before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD? I've heard some arguments claiming they have, but I don't subscribe to them because while there are similarities, the famine the took place during the siege didn't happen before it. This is one of the reasons why I view Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD, more so, as an allusion of things to come!

Right. I've treated these problems/questions on other occasions. But I'm trying not to turn this into a debate, because we agree on some really important matters. But I can give you my instant thoughts--you can accept, reject, or contemplate....

I don't equate the 4 signs in the Olivet Discourse precisely with the 4 horsemen of Revelation. I admit they are similar. But the big difference is, in my view, that the Olivet Discourse was an Israeli prophecy whereas the book of Revelation was a prophecy for the International Church. The scope is much larger with the book of Revelation.

The fact they are similar indicates that the process of judgment will be similar for the world as compared to the way God handled Israel. There is war, international turmoil, famine, and pestilence/natural disasters, as well as a persecution of God's People. These things are the natural processes of divine judgment, whether applying to the backslidden nation Israel or to the formerly Christian nations of Europe and the pagan world.

As you rightly noticed, the "White Horse rider" is very different from the signs of the Olivet Discourse, which had to do with the coming fall of Jerusalem, and the destruction of its temple. The White Horse just goes forth and conquers, making the world fit for the coming Kingdom of Christ. Wars keep the world's kingdoms at bay until Christ's Kingdom can come, much as the Tower of Babel was destroyed before the world found peace on its own terms, without God.

I do find the Birthpain Signs to have existed and precede the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Indeed, they were designed to anticipate that event and to warn Jesus' Disciples that it was coming. False prophets and messiahs tried to mislead the Jews into fighting Rome, instead of resigning to the fate of sinful Israel. This precedent existed earlier in Scriptures, just prior to the Babylonian Judgment.

Famines and earthquates certainly were recorded in the time before 70 AD. You can find it on the web in a search. Matt 27, Acts 11, Acts 16 and a number of historical sources.

I think much of your argument is based on a supposed connection between the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation, and I understand that, as I suggested. But if you don't do that, and instead look at Luke 21 you will see how Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation." It was a *Jewish Punishment.*

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

What does "wrath against this people" mean? Nobody wants to look at this. It means, quite obviously, God's punishment against the Jewish nation.

This then is the context for the Olivet Discourse and for the identification of the "Great Tribulation," or "Great Distress," which is mentioned in all 3 accounts. It simply isn't accepted as such, perhaps because it is of little interest in view of current prophetic perspectives, or because of poor messengers.

Nevertheless, I have to share what I've learned and received. God bless you on the Postrib arguments. I hope you consider my arguments here, but nevertheless--have a nice day!

 

[Garrett.theo]

Right. I've treated these problems/questions on other occasions. But I'm trying not to turn this into a debate, because we agree on some really important matters. But I can give you my instant thoughts--you can accept, reject, or contemplate....

I don't equate the 4 signs in the Olivet Discourse precisely with the 4 horsemen of Revelation. I admit they are similar. But the big difference is, in my view, that the Olivet Discourse was an Israeli prophecy whereas the book of Revelation was a prophecy for the International Church. The scope is much larger with the book of Revelation.

The fact they are similar indicates that the process of judgment will be similar for the world as compared to the way God handled Israel. There is war, international turmoil, famine, and pestilence/natural disasters, as well as a persecution of God's People. These things are the natural processes of divine judgment, whether applying to the backslidden nation Israel or to the formerly Christian nations of Europe and the pagan world.

As you rightly noticed, the "White Horse rider" is very different from the signs of the Olivet Discourse, which had to do with the coming fall of Jerusalem, and the destruction of its temple. The White Horse just goes forth and conquers, making the world fit for the coming Kingdom of Christ. Wars keep the world's kingdoms at bay until Christ's Kingdom can come, much as the Tower of Babel was destroyed before the world found peace on its own terms, without God.

I do find the Birthpain Signs to have existed and precede the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Indeed, they were designed to anticipate that event and to warn Jesus' Disciples that it was coming. False prophets and messiahs tried to mislead the Jews into fighting Rome, instead of resigning to the fate of sinful Israel. This precedent existed earlier in Scriptures, just prior to the Babylonian Judgment.

Famines and earthquates certainly were recorded in the time before 70 AD. You can find it on the web in a search. Matt 27, Acts 11, Acts 16 and a number of historical sources.

I think much of your argument is based on a supposed connection between the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation, and I understand that, as I suggested. But if you don't do that, and instead look at Luke 21 you will see how Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation." It was a *Jewish Punishment.*

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

What does "wrath against this people" mean? Nobody wants to look at this. It means, quite obviously, God's punishment against the Jewish nation.

This then is the context for the Olivet Discourse and for the identification of the "Great Tribulation," or "Great Distress," which is mentioned in all 3 accounts. It simply isn't accepted as such, perhaps because it is of little interest in view of current prophetic perspectives, or because of poor messengers.

Nevertheless, I have to share what I've learned and received. God bless you on the Postrib arguments. I hope you consider my arguments here, but nevertheless--have a nice day!

Of course, no need for a debate!

I do appreciate you taking your time to write all that out, and I think you articulated yourself very well, in fact. I can see why you believe what you said, as there are clear grounds for your stance. It's certainly interesting, and worth contemplating.

But while I agree with your observation that my belief in an accurate interpretation of the seals relies on Jesus' words in Matthew 24, I simply disagree with the idea that The Great Tribulation is an event that essentially spans hundreds of years--no need for us to debate!

I appreciate you sharing that with me, though! It's certainly important for us to share our studies with each other! God bless!

 

[RandyPNW]

But while I agree with your observation that my belief in an accurate interpretation of the seals relies on Jesus' words in Matthew 24, I simply disagree with the idea that The Great Tribulation is an event that essentially spans hundreds of years--no need for us to debate!

Not debating here--just explaining. I admit the passage does not elaborate on what the Jewish exile will be, and how long it will take. It does not suggest hundreds of years. At best, there are a few allusions to it taking a "long time."

It is history itself that explains that the Jewish exile, beginning at that time, has taken many centuries. So I would suggest that Jesus is talking about an exile without detailing how long it will take. But we know from history that it has taken up the entire NT age! This is the worst judgment against Israel in her history!

Yes, we don't need to debate. We all get pretty caught up in the need to express our view, and sometimes go overboard. I'm not trying to extend this into a debate--it just left some questions that I felt a need to answer from my perspective. You can take it or leave it. It may or may not help others.

Thanks for your good spirit. Take care...

 

[PesachPup]

Heb 9:26-28 KJV 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he APPEAR the second time without sin unto salvation.

Post-Trib, because they do not see Christ APPEARING in heaven a second time [with the church...with those looking for him] fail to grasp what is said in Hebrews 8. The first appearance of Christ [IN HEAVEN] was/ is as our high priest. The second appearance [in heaven] will be to bring bodily salvation to those looking for him.

Heb 9:11-14 KJV 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Christ entered the first time [cf. ONCE, in v.12], obtained eternal redemption for us. But we earnestly wait for the redemption of our bodies when he shall appear again to God in the most holy place.

Rom 8:23 KJV And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

That redemption of our bodies will take place at Christ's 2nd appearance in the most holy place. Post-Trib denies this 2nd appearance of Christ.

Be Blessed
The PuP

P.s.- I'm not pre-trib.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And what would be the point of post-trib rapture? We get raptured to clouds just to come down again? No.

If this line of reasoning is valid, then I can make a counterargument that it makes no sense for Jesus to leave heaven to come get us only to then go right back to heaven. Why not just meet Him in heaven in that case instead of meeting Him in the air?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I'm afraid almost nobody agrees with me on the Tribulation! I've studied it so long, and have so many issues with it, that now that I feel I finally have it, nobody agrees with me.

Nobody really refutes my position--how can they? Jesus said it!

But it's sad that nobody takes my views seriously for the simple reason that it isn't popular now in the current phase of prophetic views we're in. It's very similar to Postrib belief, existing in a climate where 90% of the bookstores feature a Prophecy section with Pretrib views.

My belief sounds a lot like Preterism, but it isn't. I'm a Futurist, but I believe Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" in Luke 21 as being a "Jewish Punishment," beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm not really looking to be led by anybody. I just find an interesting, inspired view on occasion. And you just gave me one. For that I *thank* you!

In my view there are two great tribulations. One local one that involved God's wrath against unbelieving Jews in 70 AD and one global great tribulation before the future return of Christ that involves the persecution of believers along with significantly increased persecution, apostasy, deception and wickedness like Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. He doesn't really describe persecution specifically there, but, in my opinion, Jesus does in relation to that same time period in Matthew 24:9-13 along with the increased apostasy, deception and wickedness that Paul wrote about. I consider that time period to be the same as Satan's little season of Revelation 20:7-9.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Further proof of a post-tribulation rapture is seen in the study of the reoccurring phrase: "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder". If you don't already know, this phrase appears 4 different times in the Bible (all of which are in the Book of Revelation). It serves as a mutual point of intersection between 3 of those verses with the remaining verse telling us the significance behind the phrase itself.

That latter verse is found in John's vision of a Throne in Heaven, and is the first time we see this phrase used in the Book of Revelation. It reads:



Clearly, the person on said throne is Jesus, and the phrase "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder" is a descriptor of his physical appearance. That being said, when we see this same phrase used in the other 3 verses in the book of Revelation, we can understand that they, too, are signifying the physical presence of The Lord.

For example, when we read the description of the pouring out of the 7th bowl, we're told:



This clue clearly tells us that Jesus is physically present at this time, which we can agree on as it's commonly accepted that the 7th bowl marks the end of the Great Tribulation and return of Jesus to earth.

Yet, by no coincidence, this same phrase is also found in sounding of the 7th trumpet, as highlighted:



This not tells us that these two visions are undoubtedly connected (which is further evident by the fact that they both mention an earthquake and a hailstorm), but it also serves as a clue as to when the rapture of believers will take place. As I'm sure you're familiar with, when Paul was writing to the Corinthian church about the Resurrection of Life (i.e., The Rapture), he said:



Being that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet of the series mentioned in Revelation and it marks the return of the Lord, we can confidently conclude that the rapture of believers takes place at the very end of The Great Tribulation!


Further detail about the rapture, the connection between the trumpets and the bowls of Revelation, and how God will protect His people from His wrath during the time of The Great Tribulation can be found in this article: The Great Tribulation and The Day of The Lord

This was very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Like Randy, I probably do not agree with your understanding of what "The Great Tribulation" entails, but you made a good argument for the rapture being post-trib regardless of what one's understanding of the "trib" might be exactly. Regardless of that, we agree that the rapture does not take place before the seventh (and last) trumpet and bowl and we agree that the seventh trumpet and bowl occur at the same time when Jesus returns and the rapture takes place at that time.