Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

[Richard T]

Ananias was a prophet. That office, like an apostle, comes with an anointing. So does an Evangelist, a teacher,... etc.

The anointing upon a person with The clothing/enduement of The Holy Spirit, allows the greater gifts to operate through a person. That is the divine way, any other method in scripture is faith based.

Thanks for a logical reply. Most I have heard teach that one can prophesy yet that does not make them a "prophet." Ananias was gifted but since we don't know enough about him, how can we just assume he was an apostle because God used him in this instance?

 

[ARBITER01]

Thanks for a logical reply. Most I have heard teach that one can prophesy yet that does not make them a "prophet."

That's actually a true statement. Any Spirit-filled Christian can have the gift of prophesying, but not just any Christian can be a prophet.

Ananias was gifted but since we don't know enough about him, how can we just assume he was an apostle because God used him in this instance?

Where does the text say he was an Apostle? The Ananias that I see listed in the book of Acts says he was a Prophet.

In reference to Ananias, notice how it took Ananias coming to Paul to speak predictively as a prophet, whereas the 4 virgin daughters that prophesied beforehand were not used by GOD to foretell anything to him?

Hence the statement,..... one can prophesy, but that does not make them a prophet.

 

[Richard T]

That's actually a true statement. Any Spirit-filled Christian can have the gift of prophesying, but not just any Christian can be a prophet.



Where does the text say he was an Apostle? The Ananias that I see listed in the book of Acts says he was a Prophet.

In reference to Ananias, notice how it took Ananias coming to Paul to speak predictively as a prophet, whereas the 4 virgin daughters that prophesied beforehand were not used by GOD to foretell anything to him?

Hence the statement,..... one can prophesy, but that does not make them a prophet.

While I agree that a prophet would have some other accompanying spiritual gifts such as the word of wisdom, there are many, even unbelievers that can predict some events. So it seems hard to know where a layperson ends and a set apart ministry begins. I might consider how full-time and frequent the occurrences are, as well as some confirmation from the church? Some Pentecostals such as the AOG suggest this: "Thus, within the Assemblies of God, persons are not recognized by the title of apostle or prophet. However, many within the church exercise the ministry function of apostles and prophets. Apostolic functions usually occur within the context of breaking new ground in unevangelized areas or among unreached people." Apostles and Prophets | Assemblies of God (USA)
The AOG seems an odd position to take but as a practical matter I think it avoids some conflict. Titles are far less important than the works.

 

[ARBITER01]

While I agree that a prophet would have some other accompanying spiritual gifts such as the word of wisdom, there are many, even unbelievers that can predict some events. So where to exactly know where a layperson ends and a set part ministry begins is a little iffy. I might consider how full-time and frequent the occurrences are, as well as some confirmation from the church.

You should find some of the older material and study the gifts more. The older saints were more dedicated to GOD and knew things better than ones nowadays

I was taught that the four virgins and others as well did predict Paul's treatment in Jerusalem.

I made a mistake, it was Agabus not Ananias,..... anyways, here's the scripture section,....

Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him.
Act 21:9 Now this man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Act 21:11 And coming to us, and taking Paul’s girdle, he bound his own feet and hands, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

As can be seen, the 4 virgin daughters were not used by GOD to predict the events that would happen to Paul, even though the had the gift of prophesying, so the gift operates like Paul said it would in 1 Corinthians,.... Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort,.... not prediction.

 

[Guojing]

I guess some suggest the New Covenant for healing is already in place, whereas others suggest that total healing is accomplished after a Christian enters heaven or for the millennium.

Please quote the scripture you are using to reason that "the New Covenant for healing is already in place".

 

[johansen]

Both are made with Israel (Hebrews 8:8), so there is healing in both.

Anyway, the New Covenant will only be made after Christ return for the nation of Israel (Romans 11:25-27, Hebrews 8:12) so they will not need physical healing during the millennial kingdom.

Please quote the scripture you are using to reason that "the New Covenant for healing is already in place".

Why does God need a covenant with a person in order to heal them?

Keep in mind when Jesus said "there were many leppers ..but one. And there were many widows, but elijah was sent to but one"

They got offended because what Jesus was effectively saying was: but one was righteous.

So God did not heal everyone in the OT.


Why would we so arrogantly think we will all be healed?

 

[Guojing]

Why does God need a covenant with a person in order to heal them?

I didn't say that.

There is a difference between believing

1. that God could heal if he chooses to versus
2. God will heal due to a covenant he made with man.

 

[Guojing]

Why would we so arrogantly think we will all be healed?

Please follow the discussion starting from Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

 

[johansen]

Please follow the discussion starting from Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

I have been.

One reason i will add:

God cannot heal everyone is because due to our egos, we would end up preaching a prosperity gospel of "be righteous enough and God will heal you".

So its not just faith by the masses that limits healing. Its the externalities of the whole situation; imagine some weird world where saints stay 30 years old biologically until they randomly drop dead between the ages of 80 to 130.

Is that what you imagine "god healing everyone" to be?

 

[Guojing]

I have been.

One reason i will add:

God cannot heal everyone is because due to our egos, we would end up preaching a prosperity gospel of "be righteous enough and God will heal you".

So its not just faith by the masses that limits healing. Its the externalities of the whole situation; imagine some weird world where saints stay 30 years old biologically until they randomly drop dead between the ages of 80 to 130.

Is that what you imagine "god healing everyone" to be?

I was not the one claiming those 2 numbered points in that post, so you are addressing the wrong person.

 

[Richard T]

Please quote the scripture you are using to reason that "the New Covenant for healing is already in place".

It is based on:
Hebrews 8:6 (NASB77)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

That those promises include healing seems clear from
Matthew 8:16-17 (NASB77)
16 And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill
17 in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, " HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES, AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES."

One might be tempted to suggest that this fulfillment ended when Jesus did these works, but the idea that healing and forgiveness go hand in hand is pretty common. Even teh Greek word sozo is sometimes used for deliverance and healing.
"Of the instances where sózō is used, fourteen relate to deliverance from disease or demon possession (Matt. 9:21, 22; Mark 3:4; 5:23, 28, 34; 6:56; 10:52; Luke 6:9; 8:36, 48, 50; 17:19; 18:42; John 11:12); in twenty instances, the inference is to the rescue of physical life from some impending peril or instant death (Matt. 8:25; 14:30; 16:25; 27:40, 42, 49; Mark 8:35; 15:30, 31; Luke 9:24, 56; 23:35, 37, 39; John 12:27); the remaining twenty times, the reference is to spiritual salvation (Matt. 1:21; 10:22; 19:25; 24:13, 22; Mark 8:35; 10:26; 13:13, 20; 16:16; Luke 7:50; 8:12; 9:24; 13:23; 18:26; 19:10; John 3:17; 5:34; 10:9; 12:47)." The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament.

Seems logical too from Hebrews that it would be included as part of the new and better covenant.

 

[Guojing]

It is based on:
Hebrews 8:6 (NASB77)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

That those promises include healing seems clear from
Matthew 8:16-17 (NASB77)
16 And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill
17 in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, " HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES, AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES."

One might be tempted to suggest that this fulfillment ended when Jesus did these works, but the idea that healing and forgiveness go hand in hand is pretty common. Even teh Greek word sozo is sometimes used for deliverance and healing.
"Of the instances where sózō is used, fourteen relate to deliverance from disease or demon possession (Matt. 9:21, 22; Mark 3:4; 5:23, 28, 34; 6:56; 10:52; Luke 6:9; 8:36, 48, 50; 17:19; 18:42; John 11:12); in twenty instances, the inference is to the rescue of physical life from some impending peril or instant death (Matt. 8:25; 14:30; 16:25; 27:40, 42, 49; Mark 8:35; 15:30, 31; Luke 9:24, 56; 23:35, 37, 39; John 12:27); the remaining twenty times, the reference is to spiritual salvation (Matt. 1:21; 10:22; 19:25; 24:13, 22; Mark 8:35; 10:26; 13:13, 20; 16:16; Luke 7:50; 8:12; 9:24; 13:23; 18:26; 19:10; John 3:17; 5:34; 10:9; 12:47)." The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament.

Seems logical too from Hebrews that it would be included as part of the new and better covenant.

You realized gentiles were not part of Jesus's ministry in his first coming? (Matthew 10:5, Matthew 15:24).

As for Hebrews, its written to the circumcised as well (Hebrews 1:1-2) and that new covenant is still a future promise to the nation of Israel. (Hebrews 8:8).

 

[Richard T]

You realized gentiles were not part of Jesus's ministry in his first coming? (Matthew 10:5, Matthew 15:24).

As for Hebrews, its written to the circumcised as well (Hebrews 1:1-2) and that new covenant is still a future promise to the nation of Israel. (Hebrews 8:8).

I can see your points. A good teaching that takes a different perspective I read is here. Divine Healing: Is It In The Atonement? | Moody Church Media | Articles | Moody Church Media
Here is a decent Assembly of God article on relating healing to the atonement. file:///C:/Users/Erin/Downloads/HealingandAtonement.pdf
Some too look at healing in communion.

I won't say that things are perfectly clear. I can see how some might take one side or the other on this. However, when i look at the great healing ministers of the past. Nearly all taught God not only had the ability to heal and that he was willing to heal. Sure some went away sick at their meetings, but many were healed as well. Healing may not be instant but it is included. Jehovah Rapha's name is still the same today as it was back then. So I would still look at a lack of healing as being something on our end. However, if one has decided that it is for God's glory, such as Corrie Ten Boom, then Amen for that person.

 

[Guojing]

Sure some went away sick at their meetings, but many were healed as well.

So, going back to our earlier conclusion "So healing may or may not take place when we pray, for one reason or another. Just trust in his promise that his peace will guard your heart", aka Philippians 4:6-7.

If you have that view about God's promises to us today, as how the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to teach us gentiles in the Body of Christ today, we will always be at peace, whether healing takes place or not.

After all, even Bill Johnson of Bethel had to go back to Philippians 4:6-7, to understand God's will, in the sermon he preached, just after his wife passed away.

 

[johansen]

After all, even Bill Johnson of Bethel had to go back to Philippians 4:6-7, to understand God's will, in the sermon he preached, just after his wife passed away.

In my church back in 2017 iirc, The pastor asked the whole congregation to pray in a particular manner for a woman's reoccurrence of cancer to be healed

My brother and i were both significantly spiritually offended by the situation and left immediatly. She died the next day.

Come to find out a year later, the woman who's cancer was miraculously healed 2 years prior, she knew that God had extended her life by 2 years. It was her time to go.

 

[Richard T]

So, going back to our earlier conclusion "So healing may or may not take place when we pray, for one reason or another. Just trust in his promise that his peace will guard your heart", aka Philippians 4:6-7.

If you have that view about God's promises to us today, as how the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to teach us gentiles in the Body of Christ today, we will always be at peace, whether healing takes place or not.

After all, even Bill Johnson of Bethel had to go back to Philippians 4:6-7, to understand God's will, in the sermon he preached, just after his wife passed away.

So, going back to our earlier conclusion "So healing may or may not take place when we pray, for one reason or another. Just trust in his promise that his peace will guard your heart", aka Philippians 4:6-7.

If you have that view about God's promises to us today, as how the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to teach us gentiles in the Body of Christ today, we will always be at peace, whether healing takes place or not.

After all, even Bill Johnson of Bethel had to go back to Philippians 4:6-7, to understand God's will, in the sermon he preached, just after his wife passed away.

In looking closer at Phil, I think going back to verse 5 is good. Here is one Greek interpretation.
Used in the neut. as a noun tó epieikés, your tolerance, clemency (Phil. 4:5). Complete Word Study Dictionary,
So your tolerance or forbearance, should be known to all men, so answers definitely are not always instant. Still, you pray, thank God and get peace. It does not say whether you expect healing always but is does not say that you don't expect either. Regardless you do get the peace if you can rid yourself of anxiety and forbear. So while the verse is great it is not all the bible says about healing, and whether if one has faith, that it will manifest sooner or later So no definitive answer here except you will have peace and you do not need to be anxious. I still lean toward healing as part of the covenant.

I don't follow Johnson much but his wife dying must have been quite a test. I figured my caveat (Job's children) that were required for a test would more often be on people of prominence. If few ever really knew about the test, there would be no point. I can't say that occurred with Johnson's wife though.

I do know Christians (other than Christian scientists) that will not see a Dr. ever. I think that over the years they build stronger faith in healing than the average Christian. I imagine that number is less than 1%. I would love to research such people and document what they believed and how it turned out.

I like too the results of those who teach healing is included for NT believers. I think that raises the faith level and outcomes for those in that hear such a message. High goals are good. John Wesley thought a Christian could arrive and put away sin. He called it a state of perfection. Finney too taught that if God said to be holy as he is holy that it was a command that was possible. Too often we see ourselves so weak and unable. I certainly have not arrived but I love the higher goals. The way to get there too is like Stephen full of faith and the Holy Ghost.

One thing I noticed from those like T.L. Osborn is that they taught that anyone could operate in healing, etc. I am thinking that Bonnke, Kuhlman, Oral Roberts and even the older ministers like Smith Wigglesworth were like minded too on healing. Some seem pretty inclusive as to how far someone can go. In God, "there is no limit" is a theme to me. I do like that you layed out some good points in your beliefs on this topic. God bless.

Philippians 4:5-7 (YLT)
5 let your forbearance be known to all men; the Lord is near;
6 for nothing be anxious, but in everything by prayer, and by supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God;
7 and the peace of God, that is surpassing all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus.

 

[Richard T]

In my church back in 2017 iirc, The pastor asked the whole congregation to pray in a particular manner for a woman's reoccurrence of cancer to be healed

My brother and i were both significantly spiritually offended by the situation and left immediatly. She died the next day.

Come to find out a year later, the woman who's cancer was miraculously healed 2 years prior, she knew that God had extended her life by 2 years. It was her time to go.

Why be offended? Could be God might extend her life more years. It never hurts to ask. It could also be that the two years she was told was not of God. I do not judge her, but some do get messages from the devil about their deaths or a loved one's death.

 

[Guojing]

So while the verse is great it is not all the bible says about healing, and whether if one has faith, that it will manifest sooner or later So no definitive answer here except you will have peace and you do not need to be anxious. I still lean toward healing as part of the covenant.

Its because you want to see yourself as part of Israel and their covenant with God (Romans 9:3-5).

That's understandable, as I said, under the covenant of Law, Israel was promised physical healing if they obey the terms of the covenant. (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26).

Healing was not random under their covenant, it was not "God may heal, God may not, we just need to trust him", that we gentiles have now under the Body of Christ (Philippians 2:27, Philippians 4:6-7)

 

[Guojing]

Come to find out a year later, the woman who's cancer was miraculously healed 2 years prior, she knew that God had extended her life by 2 years. It was her time to go.

I am sure at that time of praying, like Bill Johnson's wife, that was not on their mind.

It is easier to rationalize like that, after you realized God chose not to heal. There is already scripture precedence for that kind of thinking (2 Samuel 12:19-23)

 

[johansen]

Why be offended? Could be God might extend her life more years. It never hurts to ask. It could also be that the two years she was told was not of God. I do not judge her, but some do get messages from the devil about their deaths or a loved one's death.

You would have to have been there to understand.

it was a cocophany of people shouting at God to cure her cancer a second time.