Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

[Richard T]

So healing may or may not take place when we pray, for one reason or another. Just trust in his promise that his peace will guard your heart.

This is a pretty big issue with a wide range of thought but I will relay a little of the basics on two schools of thought for healing. Some think is has already been provided through Jesus and that it is God's will to always heal. There are lots of scriptures that seem to indicate this. Others though look at the thorn in the flesh (I do not know this school of thought much but I am sure they use other parts of the bible as well.) and suggest some things you have to carry in this world, and that healing might be when you get to heaven.

I myself look at Mark 11:23 :Truly I tell you that if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and has no doubt in his heart but believes that it will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

The believe part here is faith that comes from God; the evidence of things not seen. Some think they have faith for something they ask for, but often it is just hope. The path to faith is to press into God, some call this praying through. It is the time to get past hoping and hear from God clearly enough that one has faith that it is a done deal. One absolutely has to hear from God. "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I Cor. 12 even has a gift of faith for extraordinary things, but one has to hear from God to operate this way. Often churches teach a confession of the appropriate bible scriptures until the belief finally arrives. Death and life are in the power of the tongue. For healing it seems to be a form of testing, the devil or the sin nature (including hereditary) puts an illness on and you are sick in the flesh. Some believe and actually succeed by hearing from God and allowing the spirit man, through Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, to overcome the problem. Regardless of how one sees healing, Christians should just love everyone and never condemn but encourage someone else's faith especially in a trying time.

 

[BukiRob]

Okay, well, many mature believers are leaving the so called church. They are leaving because they see way too much being taught that IS NOT in accordance with scripture.

Let examine a HISTORICAL FACT. If we go back the FIRST generation of believer that were the converts by the actual apostles, we see that what they were doing almost is completely unrecognizable to the protestant churches of today

A clear example of this is Polycarp who was the Bishop of Smyrna who was a disciple and appointed by the Apostle John.
One of the things he is noted for is the Quartodeciman controversy.

So the issue at the time was NOT should the church observe Sabbath and the feast days of God (note; they are NEVER referred to as the sons of Israels feast days but God says that they are HIS modim; appointed times.) Neither the church in Rome nor in Asia minor disagreed that they were to CELBRATE PASSOVER, but WHEN. Polycarp disagreed with Rome. Anicetus, the bishop of Rome, that occurred around A.D. 155; the more heated controversy between Polycrates, the bishop of Ephesus, and Victor, the bishop of Rome, that broke out around 195.

The issue is WHEN not IF. Polycarp said that it should be observed by what SCRIPTURE states. The church in Rome said no were going to pick a fixed day.... So the clearly from 155AD on the goyim (nations aka gentiles) almost immediately departed from what GOD has to say and instead chose what THEY wanted to do and this has been going on for the last 2000 years.

So we wonder why God isn't moving in the body in a powerful way its our corporate unfaithfulness and SIN.

 

[Laodicean60]

Check out the Catholic charismatics. Healing, but without the notorious TV evangelists and their hunger for money. Healings happen. Charlatans happen too. Most charlatans are their own boss. The Catholic charismatics can't get away with that so well because they are subject to a bishop.

My brother-in-law's shoulder was healed by a Catholic charismatic in Corpus Christi. He fell just like they did on TV, and my mother-in-law thought the priest killed him.

Three months before that born again, I was praying to God, telling him I wanted to believe the bible, but this healing I don't believe after all, I lived 50 years and never saw anything like that in real life besides on Benny Hinn.

 

[Guojing]

Some think is has already been provided through Jesus and that it is God's will to always heal. There are lots of scriptures that seem to indicate this.

So how does this view gel with what you earlier said, "Certainly there should be no condemnation for those that are not healed or for those that fail in their administration of it"?

1. If healing is already provided
2. it is God's will to always heal

If you are not healed after prayer, whose fault is it then?

 

[ARBITER01]

Yes, God works through individuals, but the point is he can use anyone.

But does HE? Not according to scripture.

There were seven individuals chosen in Acts 6 that had the Apostles lay their hands upon,... only Stephen rose up in power.

It takes a really dedicated individual to operate in power with GOD, most of the body of Christ are interested in other things.

 

[Richard T]

But does HE? Not according to scripture.

There were seven individuals chosen in Acts 6 that had the Apostles lay their hands upon,... only Stephen rose up in power.

It takes a really dedicated individual to operate in power with GOD, most of the body of Christ are interested in other things.

That is a good observation from Acts 6. Stephen certainly was doing great things. I don't know for certain how far the others got. Maybe Luke or whoever wrote Acts could not follow them. I do think that one does not need to be an apostle to sometimes operate in the gifts. Here is what a "disciple" did as an example.
Acts 9:10-12 (ESV)
10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.”
I admit though that this was providential, but why did God choose Ananias? Why not an apostle? Certainly God can equip and choose anyone. Still, not everyone that prophecies is a prophet. To be set apart as an apostle, I am not even sure what they standards are for those that make the claim today. Personally, the title one carries seems insignificant, just seek the gifts in love seems to be the standard.

 

[Laodicean60]

There is a healing point blank! It's happened to me and my brother-in-law, even though not everyone is healed, it's up to God for the reasons He does or doesn't. Human just can't wrap their peanut brains around something they've never experienced, because I found this out 15 years ago.

Eph 1:19
I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power
Eph 1:20
that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms.

If we have the same power that raised Christ from the dead, I think healing is part of this power, praise God!

 

[Richard T]

So how does this view gel with what you earlier said, "Certainly there should be no condemnation for those that are not healed or for those that fail in their administration of it"?

1. If healing is already provided
2. it is God's will to always heal

If you are not healed after prayer, whose fault is it then?

I don't think it is anyone's fault because why should anyone give up? The disciples were failing to deliver some people of demons, Jesus was disappointed but basically gave them the answer that some demons do not come out except by prayer and fasting. Upon reflection, Jesus marveled at the Centurion's faith, and he was disappointed sometimes at the disciples faith. Such as when they were in the boat during the storm and quite afraid. There are hindrances too that are unseen in some people with sickness or other tribulations. It could be something like unforgiveness to another, or perhaps they are too much into judging others. If I were to judge someone's lack of healing for whatever reason, perhaps too God would judge me in the same way. I don't think it is productive to look for negatives, but yes, if we can learn better to have greater success, we can accomplish more. I saw this recently from Calling Things That Are Not

"Obeying the Principle​

We must learn to obey this principle.

If someone calls and says, “Aunt Susie is in the hospital, and she’s going to die for sure,” use your faith to the limit. Dare to say some things in faith. Say, “In the name of Jesus, I believe she will live and not die. I decree it in Jesus’ name.”

“But what if she dies?” Well, you used your faith to the limit. You did what you could.

Most healings are not life and death. Millions have chronic problems that can least for years like the woman with the issue of blood. Some are comfortable and just learn to live with it using medication and while that might not be ideal, it is great that they have some relief. Still, I think we give up (myself included). I once fasted 2 or 3 days because I had a bad toothache. I sought healing from God rather than go to the dentist. After fasting I attended a meeting of an evangelist that was known for praying for people's teeth and was known to be successful. He prayed that night for everyone in attendance. I thought maybe I had received a healing. But I think I was still in hope, and the next day, I figured to go to the dentist. It was an easy fix, and sometimes I think that our faith is in doctors and medicine, but I think it is great to try to receive what you can from God. Interestingly, some thirty years later, I saw the same evangelist again in a meeting over a thousand miles away. This time I was more prepared, I was somewhat desperate as it was more serious than a tooth hurting. He called my healing out and I was healed. Thank God I did not give up on Him or that particular evangelist. I am trained in statistics and always look at what correlations might be present or absent. At the first meeting there were far more people, at the second meeting there was fewer and the healing administered was individual. I also had listened far more to this man's Mp3's and was more supportive of him. But maybe it was just that my faith was more prepared. When someone is gifted to see pictures of an exact healing issue of individuals in a meeting, that too increases faith.
At any given time we just have to give what faith we have to God, for ourselves and for others. If our results are lacking we regroup, try and hear what God says and try again. I never want to be like Job's friends, though sometimes I am fearful that I am. Their reasoning was irritating to God as to what the situation entailed. The subject of healing and the operation of the gifts is vast. Your questions are great, I pray you can learn and build on what others have found too. But I pray you can hear from God and have the faith to move mountains.

 

[ARBITER01]

I admit though that this was providential, but why did God choose Ananias? Why not an apostle? Certainly God can equip and choose anyone. Still, not everyone that prophecies is a prophet. To be set apart as an apostle, I am not even sure what they standards are for those that make the claim today. Personally, the title one carries seems insignificant, just seek the gifts in love seems to be the standard.

Ananias was a prophet. That office, like an apostle, comes with an anointing. So does an Evangelist, a teacher,... etc.

The anointing upon a person with The clothing/enduement of The Holy Spirit, allows the greater gifts to operate through a person. That is the divine way, any other method in scripture is faith based.

 

[johansen]

So how does this view gel with what you earlier said, "Certainly there should be no condemnation for those that are not healed or for those that fail in their administration of it"?

1. If healing is already provided
2. it is God's will to always heal

If you are not healed after prayer, whose fault is it then?

Sometimes people are not ready yet to know the reasons for their affliction, and they are not ready to hear that they are not ready either.

In another case, i read an account of a man seeking salvation and not finding it. I knew i could not say anything to him, and I prayed about it and got an answer of "i am showing him how evil he is."

 

[johansen]

There is debate though as to exactly what that was though many think it was related to an eye condition.

There is only debate because most christians are not willing to believe what the text says. That it was a messenger from satan. A demon sent to harass him, to keep him from being concieted.

God was following his own advice in proverbs, "do not rebuke a concieted man"

And usually by deffinition concieted people dont believe they are concieted. A modern term might be narcicism.

The idea that paul was faultless needs to go.

I had my own thorn in the flesh for a few months 13 years ago

 

[Guojing]

I don't think it is anyone's fault because why should anyone give up?

Because believing in those the 2 numbered points indicated that the fault did not come from God.

So if it is not God's fault, it must be the fault of people, either the one seeking to be healed or the people around him.

 

[Richard T]

Because believing in those the 2 numbered points indicated that the fault did not come from God.

So if it is not God's fault, it must be the fault of people, either the one seeking to be healed or the people around him.

Your inquiry is quite deep and admittedly I may not have perfect answers but i do think about such things quite a bit. Jesus talked about sickness or being born blind as not being the sins of the parents, grandparents etc. While I have blamed God before for various things (not a great idea) the reality is that He is pure and holy and cannot and should not be blamed for anything. That even when Adam sinned and sin nature entered to us, God gave man a gift to escape. So to me God is not to blame for anything. It is either ourselves or to an extent Satan. Satan is the accuser, he blames everyone, including God. I think there are reasons that we may not know about why someone gets healed and another does not. When I have lackluster results I see myself as needing to press into God more. I don't always do that and sometimes I or others around me may suffer longer. So yes, I see some negatives as my fault. The bible says some return 30, 60 or 100 fold. Many of us are slackers, or we may oscillate in our walk with God. God is merciful and in general keeps us in life, giving us chances to repent or to be more on fire for him. I should mention too that some Christians try to do too much, are overburdened and can burn out. I guess all anyone can do is do what they see the Father in heaven doing, not an easy thing, only Jesus did that perfectly.
I do have one caveat too that I take from Job on the issue of healing or safety. For Job to be tested so deeply, his children had to die. Job got everything restored, but his children died. I do not know for sure, but in my mind God always handles justice for situations like that, even of those babies that are aborted. That when a life is taken early, God may indeed give them credit for all the rewards they would have accomplished had they stayed alive. He certainly would know. Still to most it might seem Job's sons were cheated in life, in eternity I do not see that. I would apply this "testing" principle rarely though. Just because someone dies young does not mean it is a test from Satan. I am not sure of the extent that Satan can test in the church age. I do know if someone lost a loved one that they have to give that to God. Can they overcome that death as a trial? Could it be too that somewhere that person or someone near to them
let Satan get close enough that the negative event fell to them? Part of it is hearing from God too. Safety (especially) and healing (to an extent) can be avoided if we listen to God. I know one minister he told to quit drinking soda pop. He obeyed and his health issue disappeared. God can give guidance that is individual on things that will be helpful. So back to your question, is it ever God's fault/ I believe that answer is no. But we have to ask can God test with sickness? Psalm 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: But the LORD delivereth him out of them all. To me if that is not occurring then one has to double down in seeking God for the answer.

 

[Richard T]

Because believing in those the 2 numbered points indicated that the fault did not come from God.

So if it is not God's fault, it must be the fault of people, either the one seeking to be healed or the people around him.

I should add that I would love to hear your own views on these issues we have been discussing.

 

[Guojing]

I should add that I would love to hear your own views on these issues we have been discussing.

My views on healing is based on what Paul taught us in Philippians 4:6-7, which I already explained to you.

God gave us gentiles in the Body of Christ no promises regarding physical healing, compared to what he gave to Israel under the Law.

 

[Richard T]

My views on healing is based on what Paul taught us in Philippians 4:6-7, which I already explained to you.

God gave us gentiles in the Body of Christ no promises regarding physical healing, compared to what he gave to Israel under the Law.

So the Old Covenant was better for healing than the New Covenant?

 

[Guojing]

So the Old Covenant was better for healing than the New Covenant?

Both are made with Israel (Hebrews 8:8), so there is healing in both.

Anyway, the New Covenant will only be made after Christ return for the nation of Israel (Romans 11:25-27, Hebrews 8:12) so they will not need physical healing during the millennial kingdom.

 

[Isabelle30900]

When I read scripture, I clearly see that the gifts are for today. I believe that Jesus taught healing by faith although I disagree with what kind of faith most charismatic churches teach.

I don't want to discuss whether or not the gifts are for today. I know where I stand on that point. My issue is finding teachers thar I can trust. As of now, I do not trust most of the teachers that agree with my doctrine stance. In my opinion, they are charlatans squeezing money out of their congregation. People like Andrew Wommack, Todd White etc align themselves with Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn. I just can't. Thry have turned the gospel in a merchandise empire and I've seen enough of their conferences to make me sick. The fake tongues and false healings followed with a guilt trip to give money are just too much.

The other option is teachers that go against what I find I'm scripture. Those who call out these charlatans are part of the other extreme. They tend to be cessacionist or calvinist. I wholeheartedly disagree with these beliefs.

As you can see, this leaves me all alone. I understand that we are to study on our own. I agree. Sometimes it's nice to listen and to glean off of others. I just can't find anyone. The ones who agree with what I see look like charlatans and the other side reminds me of the Pharisees.

Anyone here that beliefs in the gifts, healing etc and agree that most of gift teachers are frauds? If so, who do you go to? Also, what are your thoughts on all this? Why has the continuisism side of the church fallen into such a money hungry spectacle with barely any real signs of the gifts?

I hope I made some sense on where I'm struggling.

I don’t understand you very well. The gifts are given for one purpose : to help others grow in faith. God choses what to give and to whom. Don’t ask. Some desire so much to have the gift of speaking in tongues for example that satan comes in them. It can be dangerous. let God transform you and lead you where He wants.

 

[Richard T]

Both are made with Israel (Hebrews 8:8), so there is healing in both.

Anyway, the New Covenant will only be made after Christ return for the nation of Israel (Romans 11:25-27, Hebrews 8:12) so they will not need physical healing during the millennial kingdom.

I guess some suggest the New Covenant for healing is already in place, whereas others suggest that total healing is accomplished after a Christian enters heaven or for the millennium.

 

[Jermayn]

When I read scripture, I clearly see that the gifts are for today. I believe that Jesus taught healing by faith although I disagree with what kind of faith most charismatic churches teach.

I don't want to discuss whether or not the gifts are for today. I know where I stand on that point. My issue is finding teachers thar I can trust. As of now, I do not trust most of the teachers that agree with my doctrine stance. In my opinion, they are charlatans squeezing money out of their congregation. People like Andrew Wommack, Todd White etc align themselves with Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn. I just can't. Thry have turned the gospel in a merchandise empire and I've seen enough of their conferences to make me sick. The fake tongues and false healings followed with a guilt trip to give money are just too much.

The other option is teachers that go against what I find I'm scripture. Those who call out these charlatans are part of the other extreme. They tend to be cessacionist or calvinist. I wholeheartedly disagree with these beliefs.

As you can see, this leaves me all alone. I understand that we are to study on our own. I agree. Sometimes it's nice to listen and to glean off of others. I just can't find anyone. The ones who agree with what I see look like charlatans and the other side reminds me of the Pharisees.

Anyone here that beliefs in the gifts, healing etc and agree that most of gift teachers are frauds? If so, who do you go to? Also, what are your thoughts on all this? Why has the continuisism side of the church fallen into such a money hungry spectacle with barely any real signs of the gifts?

I hope I made some sense on where I'm struggling.

I believe in the gifts, I just think they look different today than what we see in the New Testament. For instance, someone who prophecies may not be so much telling someone the future so much as given insight by God into something that will edify the Church.