Is the Rapture credible?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well let's take a look at those passages again in 2 Thess that I posted and see if that section breaks it into two separate events,....


2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him,

2Th 2:2 that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any manner; because that day will not come, unless the falling away come first, and the man of lawlessness be revealed—the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 he that opposes himself against, and exalts himself above, all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he sits in the temple of God, exhibiting himself as God.


I used the same literal translation in both of these posts, and as we see here, only one day and one event is being talked about in the Greek, not two. The context surrounding the passages matters, not how much scripture we can throw at an idea to try and make it fit our beliefs.

Again, as I said already, you've made a mistake on this, and you need to correct that first, or you'll continue to make more.

And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and of our gathering together unto him: That you be not easily moved from your sense nor be terrified, neither by spirit nor by word nor by epistle. as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition Who opposeth and is lifted up above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity already worketh: only that he who now holdeth do hold, until he be taken out of the way. And then that wicked one shall be revealed: whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: him Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power and signs and lying wonders: And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish: because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: (2:11) That all may be judged who have not believed the truth but have consented to iniquity.
2Th 2:1-12 DRB

The passage is about events and people in the time before Jesus comes again. It is written to reassure the Thessalonians so that they will not accept erroneous claims about the second coming of the Lord.

 

[Clare73]

The closest you have to any explanation is the following post 64:

In this post and the other posts, you mentioned, you are not willing to explain your rapture theory. You just posted 1 Thes 4:16-17 then you say that the verses do not need any explanation. In saying this, later, you then asked me to explain these verses, which I have done,

Please refresh my memory as to where your explanations may be found.

There are none.

 

[Clare73]

You support a rapture theory

Please present where that is stated. . .

I support the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Please present where that is stated. . .

I support the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

If you do not support a rapture belief then just say so.

 

[Clare73]

If you do not support a rapture belief then just say so.

I need your meaning of "rapture belief" to be able to answer that question accurately.

I believe 1 Th 4:16-17 which, among other events at the end of time, presents a "catching up" (harpazo) of the saints after the resurrection, to meet the Lord in the air and return with him to earth (parousia) to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I need your meaning of "rapture belief" to be able to answer that question accurately.

I believe 1 Th 4:16-17 which, among other events at the end of time, presents a "catching up" (harpazo) of the saints after the resurrection, to meet the Lord in the air and return with him to earth (parousia) to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

the Original post gives the meaning. So why not just give an answer?

 

[Clare73]

the Original post gives the meaning. So why not just give an answer?

Given in post #107.

The original post links it to a "tribulation," which is not in 1 Th 4:16-17, and which I do not believe is related to it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Given in post #107.

That is my post and it does not say what you believe.

It is probably a waste of time and effort to continue with your replies being like this. So I shall say goodbye.

 

[Clare73]

That is my post

Okay, and it quotes my post #106.

and it does not say what you believe.

It is probably a waste of time and effort to continue with your replies being like this. So I shall say goodbye.

Dodge. . .in lieu of addressing posts #106, #108.

What's your dog in this race?

 

[1Tonne]

Well let's take a look at those passages again in 2 Thess that I posted and see if that section breaks it into two separate events,....


2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him,

2Th 2:2 that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any manner; because that day will not come, unless the falling away come first, and the man of lawlessness be revealed—the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 he that opposes himself against, and exalts himself above, all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he sits in the temple of God, exhibiting himself as God.


I used the same literal translation in both of these posts, and as we see here, only one day and one event is being talked about in the Greek, not two. The context surrounding the passages matters, not how much scripture we can throw at an idea to try and make it fit our beliefs.

Again, as I said already, you've made a mistake on this, and you need to correct that first, or you'll continue to make more.

These verses are mainly addressing the fear that people had at that time. Many were starting to think that they had missed seeing the second coming of Christ because some false letters or rumours were being given (See verse 2).
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. NKJV
Verse 1 speaks of two different events. The first is when Christ returns, and then the second is at the end on the last day, when we are gathered to Him. But verses 1-4 mainly concentrate on Christ's return since this has to happen first before we are gathered with Him in the air on the last day.

Verse 2 is saying that we should not be worried about missing seeing Christ come. Believers back in this time were expecting Christ to return within their lifetime and they had not seen this yet. Some were even possibly worried that they may have missed Christ's second coming.

Verse 3-4 Paul corrects the false teaching, saying “That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed…”
He’s saying: No, you haven’t missed it. Christ’s return will be unmistakable. Certain events must precede it.

The early Christians lived with a real expectation that Jesus could return at any moment. But false teachings, possibly even forged letters, caused fear and confusion. Paul writes to calm them, remind them of the truth, and point to the unmistakable signs that will precede Christ’s coming. But as 1 Thes 4:15 says, our gathering to Him will not happen until the martyrs are raised first (those who sleep). They then reign with Him for 1000 years, and then on the last day, all believers are raised.
So, there is no contradiction with 2 Thes 2:1-4.

Now, going back to the question that I asked that you did not answer.

• John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.
• John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
• Daniel 12:1-2 .....at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (The books are opened at the GWT judgement. So, the last day)

It's pretty clear that believers are raised on the last day and that the only people who return with Christ to reign for 1000 years are the martyrs. Those who are raised before the last day and reign with Him are those who have been killed for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and they did not worship the beast or his image.

How do you explain what Jesus and the disciples believed? That we are raised on the last day and not before.

 

[1Tonne]

Please refresh my memory as to where they may be found

Post 76. But so you do not have to go back, I have copied and pasted what you asked for.
Here it is:
1 Thes 4:13-17
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [sleep in Jesus." Verse 13-14
Verses 13 and 14 say that people should not grieve for the dead believers, and that the dead believers will be raised and return with Him. The wording at the end of verse 14 says that they fell asleep in Christ. This implies that they died for the testimony of Christ. So, this would be the martyrs as mentioned in Revelation 20:4. If this is the martyrs, then they come and reign for 1000 years with Christ.

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Verses 15
Then, verse 15 is simply saying that we who are alive right now should not expect to be raised until the martyrs have been raised. We will not proceed them. The dead in Christ who are the martyrs are raised first, and then on the last day, we too will be raised.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." Verse 16
This is going into more detail about when Jesus returns with the martyrs. There will be a shout from an archangel and a trumpet sound. And the martyrs will be raised in the first resurrection.

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." Verse 17
This is the last day. We who are here on the very last day will be raised up in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51-52) to go to judgment. Believers will then be with the Lord forever, while others will be condemned.

So, I have done your demand, you now need to keep your promise by proving that the apostles taught the rapture. Though I am pretty sure that you lack the integrity to do it. (Maybe I could be wrong)

Please present where that is stated. . .

I support the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

And what is it that they taught in 1 Thes 4:13-17?
I do not see a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture. What I do see is that the dead in Christ come first, so they are raised, and they reign for 1000 years (Rev 20:4-6), then we who are alive will be raised to be with Him in the air on the last day (John 6:39)

I believe 1 Th 4:16-17 which, among other events at the end of time, presents a "catching up" (harpazo) of the saints after the resurrection, to meet the Lord in the air and return with him to earth (parousia) to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

You are very vague and not very good at teaching people your theory. We are trying to learn from you.
So, you believe the resurrection happens first and then the rapture. This I believe too.
Who is resurrected first? How long after this first resurrection is the rapture?

That is my post and it does not say what you believe.

It is probably a waste of time and effort to continue with your replies being like this. So I shall say goodbye.

I agree. Clare73 is avoiding answering our questions properly because she is unable to do so. Hopefully, she will try to keep her integrity as she proposed a deal where if I explain 1 Thes 4:13-17, she will then prove that the disciples believed in some type of rapture for all believers before the tribulation. I have kept my part of the deal, but she is avoiding her side. This shows a lack of integrity.

 

[Clare73]

Post 76. But so you do not have to go back, I have copied and pasted what you asked for.
Here it is:
1 Thes 4:13-17
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [sleep in Jesus." Verse 13-14
Verses 13 and 14 say that people should not grieve for the dead believers, and that the dead believers will be raised and return with Him. The wording at the end of verse 14 says that they fell asleep in Christ. This implies that they died for the testimony of Christ.

It implies no such thing. It simply means they were Christians who died.

Keeping in mind that the early Christians, including Paul, thought Jesus would return in their lifetimes.
"I am coming soon."

So, this would be the martyrs as mentioned in Revelation 20:4. If this is the martyrs, then they come and reign for 1000 years with Christ.

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Verses 15
Then, verse 15 is simply saying that we who are alive right now should not expect to be raised until the martyrs have been raised. We will not proceed them. The dead in Christ who are the martyrs are raised first, and then on the last day, we too will be raised.

It is saying no such thing.

Those Christians thought the deceased believers would miss the catching up which they expected to occur in their lifetime.
It is simply saying the deceased will not miss it because those who are alive will not precede those Christians who are asleep (deceased) .

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." Verse 16
This is going into more detail about when Jesus returns with the martyrs.

No, there is no carve-out here for martyrs. . .you have an active imagination.
This refers to the second coming at the end of time.
Those deceased believers whom the church thought would miss the catching up, will not miss it, because when Jesus comes, the resurrection occurs before the catching up (1 Th 4:16-17). The dead in Christ will rise first, and will then participate in the catching up.

There will be a shout from an archangel and a trumpet sound. And the martyrs will be raised in the first resurrection.

There are not two resurrections in the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).
That is your personal interpretation of prophecy, which is not given clearly, but in "dark sayings" whose meaning is not seen (Nu 12:6-8).

Jesus and the apostles present only one resurrection, of all mankind (sheep and goats) at the end of time.

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." Verse 17
This is the last day. We who are here on the very last day will be raised up in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51-52) to go to judgment. Believers will then be with the Lord forever, while others will be condemned.

We'll be raised up in the thinking of an eye at the resurrection, where believers will be caught up (harpazo) to meet the Lord in the air and to descend with him to earth (parousia) to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

 

[1Tonne]

There are not two resurrections in the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

In Revelation 20:4 it says that the martyrs are raised first. This is the first resurrection. Then in verse 5, it then says that the remaining people are not raised until the end. This would be the second resurrection.

Jesus and the apostles present only one resurrection, of all mankind (sheep and goats) at the end of time.

Cool. So, now we may start to understand what you believe (I think). You have been so vague that you have taught nothing until now.

So, please correct me if this is wrong, as I am trying to piece together what you understand.
You believe:
-Antichrist comes
-Tribulation happens
-Then on the last day, Jesus comes and first raises all dead believers. Then raises those who are still alive just after this.
- All believers return with Jesus to judge the world.
- What happens after this?

Is this correct? Like I said, I am simply trying to find your view so that we can discuss things properly.

 

[ARBITER01]

Now, going back to the question that I asked that you did not answer.

The only thing that I was responding to you over was your initial mistake that you made. I posted scripture in response to that, nothing else.

Here was your mistake,....

"I see these as 2 separate events. The first being when the our Lord comes and defeats the antichrist with the martyrs. Then after they have reigned for 1000 years, we will be gathered together to Him in the clouds on the last day."

2 Thes 2: 1-4 describes the day of The Lord and the gathering together unto Him happening in a single day.

 

[Clare73]

In Revelation 20:4 it says that the martyrs are raised first. This is the first resurrection. Then in verse 5, it then says that the remaining people are not raised until the end. This would be the second resurrection.
Cool. So, now we may start to understand what you believe (I think). You have been so vague that you have taught nothing until now.
So, please correct me if this is wrong, as I am trying to piece together what you understand.
You believe:

-Antichrist comes
-Tribulation happens
-Then on the last day, Jesus comes and first raises all dead believers. Then raises those who are still alive just after this.
- All believers return with Jesus to judge the world.
- What happens after this?

Is this correct? Like I said, I am simply trying to find your view so that we can discuss things properly.

Prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation and is not doctrine, didactics. I do not take my uderstanding from prophecy.

1) Correct interpretation of prophecy will be in agreement the NT didactics, in which there are not two resurrections, only one, of all the sheep and the goats.
2) "Tribulation'" in the NT refers to the "trouble" we have in the world, in contrast to the peace we have in Christ (Jn 16:33).
3) Jesus does not raise from the dead those who are still alive.

Apostolic teaching (e.g., 1Th 4:16-17, 1 Co 6:2, 2 Pe 3:12-13) of Christ (Lk 10:16) is:
4) At the second coming, all mankind are raised and the believers are then caught up to meet the Lord in the air to descend back to earth with him to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).
5) Somewhere in there the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the earth will melt in the heat (2 Pe 3:12).
6) We will have a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. (2 Pe 3:13).

 

[ARBITER01]

Prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation and is not doctrine, didactics. I do not take my uderstanding from prophecy.

1) Correct interpretation of prophecy will be in agreement the NT didactics, in which there are not two resurrections, only one, of all the sheep and the goats.
2) "Tribulation'" in the NT refers to the "trouble" we have in the world, in contrast to the peace we have in Christ (Jn 16:33).
3) Jesus does not raise from the dead those who are still alive.

Apostolic teaching (e.g., 1Th 4:16-17, 1 Co 6:2, 2 Pe 3:12-13) of Christ (Lk 10:16) is:
4) At the second coming, all mankind are raised and the believers are then caught up to meet the Lord in the air to descend back to earth with him to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).
5) Somewhere in there the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the earth will melt in the heat (2 Pe 3:12).
6) We will have a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. (2 Pe 3:13).

That's pretty good.

We could probably squabble over some small details, but overall that is it for the most part.

 

[1Tonne]

The only thing that I was responding to you over was your initial mistake that you made. I posted scripture in response to that, nothing else.

Here was your mistake,....

"I see these as 2 separate events. The first being when the our Lord comes and defeats the antichrist with the martyrs. Then after they have reigned for 1000 years, we will be gathered together to Him in the clouds on the last day."

2 Thes 2: 1-4 describes the day of The Lord and the gathering together unto Him happening in a single day.

So, how does what Jesus taught about how believers are raised on the last day, fit into your understanding that you are teaching me?
Also, how does Revelation 20:4-6 fit into your understanding?

Prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation and is not doctrine, didactics. I do not take my uderstanding from prophecy.

1) Correct interpretation of prophecy will be in agreement the NT didactics, in which there are not two resurrections, only one, of all the sheep and the goats.
2) "Tribulation'" in the NT refers to the "trouble" we have in the world, in contrast to the peace we have in Christ (Jn 16:33).
3) Jesus does not raise from the dead those who are still alive.

Apostolic teaching (e.g., 1Th 4:16-17, 1 Co 6:2, 2 Pe 3:12-13) of Christ (Lk 10:16) is:
4) At the second coming, all mankind are raised and the believers are then caught up to meet the Lord in the air to descend back to earth with him to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).
5) Somewhere in there the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the earth will melt in the heat (2 Pe 3:12).
6) We will have a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. (2 Pe 3:13).

OK. I will give you chronological bullet points of what I believe. This will be very similar to what I have already posted. It would be great if you could do this too.

1. The Antichrist Comes
-Matthew 24:15 – "When you see the abomination of desolation... standing in the holy place..."
-2 Thessalonians 2:3–4 – “The man of lawlessness... sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
-Daniel 11:36–37 – Prophecy of a self-exalting ruler.

2. The Tribulation Happens
-Matthew 24:21 – “Then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning...”
-Daniel 12:1 – “A time of distress such as never before...”
-Revelation 7:14 – “These are they who came out of the great tribulation...”

3. Jesus Returns, Defeats the Antichrist, and Resurrects the Martyrs Only
-Revelation 20:4–6 – Only the martyrs are raised to reign.
-Matthew 24:29–31 – Jesus returns after the tribulation and gathers His elect.
-Revelation 19:11–21 – Christ defeats the beast and his armies.
-2 Thessalonians 2:8 – Jesus destroys the lawless one by the splendor of His coming.

4. Satan is Bound for 1,000 Years
-Revelation 20:1–3 – Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years.

5. Jesus Reigns from Jerusalem with the Martyrs
-Revelation 20:4 – “They reigned with Christ for 1,000 years.”
-1 Corinthians 6:2 – “The saints will judge the world.”
-Isaiah 2:2–4 – “The law will go out from Zion...”
-Zechariah 14:9, 16–17 – “The LORD will be king over all the earth.”

6. Satan is Released Briefly
-Revelation 20:7–8 – Satan is released to deceive the nations once more.

7. Satan is Cast into the Lake of Fire
-Revelation 20:10 – “The devil... was thrown into the lake of fire... forever.”

8. On the Last Day, Everyone is Raised (Believers and Unbelievers)
-John 5:28–29 – “All who are in the graves will rise... to life or condemnation.”
-Acts 24:15 – “Resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”
-Daniel 12:2 – “Some to everlasting life, others to shame...”
-1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 – “The dead in Christ will rise... we will meet the Lord.”
-Revelation 20:12–13 – “The dead were judged according to what they had done.”

9. Final Judgment
-Revelation 20:11–15 – The Great White Throne Judgment.
-Romans 2:6 – “God will repay each person according to what they have done.”
-2 Corinthians 5:10 – “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.”
-Matthew 25:31–46 – The nations are gathered and separated as sheep and goats.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why can't Jesus come back and judge the world and that's the end?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why can't Jesus come back and judge the world and that's the end?

It's not a very marketable and profitable position. There's money to be made in the end times industry.

On a serious note, I agree. But then I'm Amil. I don't even know if there is sufficient biblical material to justify a belief in a singular eschatological bad guy (i.e. the Antichrist). I know that a belief in a singular and final Antichrist has been common through much of the Church's history, we can even see early fathers such St. Irenaeus and St. Hippolytus engage in some speculation about it. I'm just not entirely convinced that this is the proper conclusion to draw from the Bible.

There certainly have been, and are, antichrists. But, that's always been the case.

And as an aside, touching on the first resurrection/second resurrection aspect of the conversation, I take the historic interpretation. The first resurrection is figurative and is talking about Holy Baptism. I would, point out as well, that we in fact reign with Christ even now, "for we are seated with Christ in heavenly places" as St. Paul reminds us; this is certainly true, at the very least, of the blessed saints in heaven. What we await is that moment, at the end, at the consummation of everything, when Christ returns, the dead are raised, and God is all in all.

I think it is significant that the only biblical reference to a Millennium is in the same book that describes Jesus returning on a white horse, where a prostitute rides on a multi-headed monster whose name is "Babylon", and Satan is described as a dragon who causes a third of the star to fall to earth. Perhaps, just perhaps, St. John doesn't want us to take the thousand years any more literally than the rest of these things.

I mean, after all, when the Psalmist declares that YAHWEH owns the cattle on a thousand hills, he isn't saying God only owns a thousand hills' worth of cattle, as though the cattle on hill 1,001 doesn't belong to God. It means God owns all the cattle. A thousand, in this context, means "a whole lot" or even "all". When St. Jude references the Lord coming with His ten thousand saints, it doesn't mean there's only ten thousand saints. If the rest of the Bible frequently uses big numbers to mean "a whole lot", then perhaps we should show the same courtesy to the same book that mentions human-faced locust creatures flying out of a bottomless pit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

This is simply not true. You can easily google it.

I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. I do understand the argumants against the rapture, but the rapture being a 19th centrury innovation is not one of them.

It may be 19 th centuy innovation AND inovation do not count if the HOLY SPIRIT did not have men of old not write

THEM !

dan p