Is the Rapture credible?

[ozso]

Are you saying 1 Th 4:16-17 contains no teaching on the rapture?

I'm saying it never did so until after 1830. From the 1st century to the 19th, no Christian would have any idea what you were talking about if you went back in time and tried to discuss the rapture with them.

 

[Clare73]

I'm saying it never did so until after 1830. From the 1st century to the 19th, no Christian would have any idea what you were talking about if you went back in time and tried to discuss the rapture with them.

Your research is not adequate. . .don't confuse your theology of the rapture with the mind of the early church.

"Rapture" is simple: a catching up (harpazo) of the saints at the resurrection to meet Jesus in the air in his second coming at the end of time (1 Th 4:16-17) and to descend with him back to earth (parousia) to assist in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

 

[ozso]

Your research is not adequate. . .don't confuse your theology with the mind of the early church.

"Rapture" is simple: a catching up (harpazo) of the saints to meet Jesus in the air in his second coming at the resurrection at the end of time (1 Th 4:16-17).

Which was never taught in Christianity until after 1830. To me this is like the SDA saying the Bible is the source of they're doctrine. But it isn't, Ellen White is. Just like the source of the rapture doctrine is Margaret McDonald.

 

[Clare73]

Which was never taught in Christianity until after 1830.

Contraire. . .

To me this is like the SDA saying the Bible is the source of they're doctrine. But it isn't, Ellen White is. Just like the source of the rapture doctrine is Margaret McDonald.

The source of the "rapture;" i.e., the catching up (harpazo) of the saints is its presentation in 1 Th 4:16-17.

 

[ozso]

Contraire. . .

The source of the "rapture;" i.e., the catching up (harpazo) of the saints is its presentation in 1 Th 4:16-17.

Not until Margaret McDonald's vision in 1830 it wasn't. Just like Ellen White's vision in 1830.

 

[Clare73]

Not until Margaret McDonald's vision in 1830 it wasn't.

I'm thinkin' 1 Th 4:16-17 was written before 1830. . .

You are confusing McDonald's notion of the rapture with the Scriptural notion of the rapture (1 Th 4:16-17).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Are you saying 1 Th 4:16-17 contains no teaching on the rapture?

For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever.
1Th 4:16-17 NRSV

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

 

[ozso]

I'm thinkin' 1 Th 4:16-17 was written before 1830. . .

You are confusing McDonald's notion of the rapture with the Scriptural notion of the rapture.

That's exactly what I've heard about confusing Ellen White's notion of Christian seventh day sabbatarianism with the scriptural notion of Christian seventh day sabbatarianism. Same exact claim to a T.

 

[Freth]

Which was never taught in Christianity until after 1830. To me this is like the SDA saying the Bible is the source of they're doctrine. But it isn't, Ellen White is. Just like the source of the rapture doctrine is Margaret McDonald.

If this were true then why is it that every SDA on this forum backs what they say with scripture and not Ellen White, unless Ellen comes up in a thread? I think the evidence speaks for itself (see our forum posts). We by and large post scripture to back our position. And speaking of the Sabbath, the belief in Sabbath observance didn't originate with Ellen. In fact, she didn't observe it initially. She was a Methodist first, then a Millerite.

Wikipedia:

Sabbath observance develops and unites​

Main article: Sabbath and Seventh-day Adventism § History​

​

A young Seventh Day Baptist layperson named Rachel Oakes Preston living in New Hampshire was responsible for introducing Sabbath to the Millerite Adventists. Due to her influence, Frederick Wheeler, a local Methodist-Adventist preacher, began keeping the seventh day as Sabbath, probably in the early spring of 1844. Several members of the Washington, New Hampshire church he occasionally ministered to also followed his decision. These included William and Cyrus Farnsworth. T. M. Preble soon accepted it either from Wheeler or directly from Oakes. These events were shortly followed by the Great Disappointment.​

​

Preble promoted Sabbath through the February 28, 1845 issue of the Hope of Israel. In March he published his Sabbath views in tract form. Although he returned to observing Sunday in the next few years, his writing convinced Joseph Bates and J. N. Andrews. These men in turn convinced James and Ellen White, as well as Hiram Edson and hundreds of others.[14]​

​

The Seventh-day Adventist church didn't exist until its formation on May 21, 1863.

 

[ozso]

If this were true then why is it that every SDA on this forum backs what they say with scripture and not Ellen White, unless Ellen comes up in a thread? I think the evidence speaks for itself (see our forum posts). We by and large post scripture to back our position.

Thanks for supporting my comparison. BTW I'm not trying to ding SDA. I just know the person I'm talking to doesn't agree with what you're saying, even though it's the same exact principle being given.

 

[ozso]

If this were true then why is it that every SDA on this forum backs what they say with scripture and not Ellen White, unless Ellen comes up in a thread? I think the evidence speaks for itself (see our forum posts). We by and large post scripture to back our position. And speaking of the Sabbath, the belief in Sabbath observance didn't originate with Ellen. In fact, she didn't observe it initially. She was a Methodist.

Wikipedia:

Sabbath observance develops and unites​

Main article: Sabbath and Seventh-day Adventism § History​

​

A young Seventh Day Baptist layperson named Rachel Oakes Preston living in New Hampshire was responsible for introducing Sabbath to the Millerite Adventists. Due to her influence, Frederick Wheeler, a local Methodist-Adventist preacher, began keeping the seventh day as Sabbath, probably in the early spring of 1844. Several members of the Washington, New Hampshire church he occasionally ministered to also followed his decision. These included William and Cyrus Farnsworth. T. M. Preble soon accepted it either from Wheeler or directly from Oakes. These events were shortly followed by the Great Disappointment.​

​

Preble promoted Sabbath through the February 28, 1845 issue of the Hope of Israel. In March he published his Sabbath views in tract form. Although he returned to observing Sunday in the next few years, his writing convinced Joseph Bates and J. N. Andrews. These men in turn convinced James and Ellen White, as well as Hiram Edson and hundreds of others.[14]​

I know all about that. But Ellen White is the founder of SDA via her prophetic visions. Who she barrowed the idea from is irrelevant. But let us not derail.

 

[Clare73]

For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever.
1Th 4:16-17 NRSV

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

Jerome translated the Greek harpazo of 1 Th 4:16-17 to the Latin rapturo, which became the English "rapture."

 

[Clare73]

That's exactly what I've heard about confusing Ellen White's notion of Christian seventh day sabbatarianism with the scriptural notion of Christian seventh day sabbatarianism. Same exact claim to a T.

Your point? . . .you fail to address 1 Th 4:16-17, which is the issue.

Never heard of "Christian seventh day sabbatarianism."

Biblically, there is no such thing.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jerome translated the Greek harpazo of 1 Th 4:16-17 to the Latin rapturo, which became the English "rapture."

Ya think? In what English translation of the Vulgate does that happen? None that I can find.

(4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1Th 4:16-17 DRB

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

 

[ozso]

Your point? . . .you fail to address 1 Th 4:16-17, which is the issue.

Never heard of "Christian seventh day sabbatarianism."

Biblically, there is no such thing.

It all depends on what interpretation of scripture one believes in. Either you believe scripture supports a doctrine or you don't. In this case it doesn't matter much, because if there is a rapture, I'll get raptured whether I believe in it or not. I think though I'm probably going to end up meeting Jesus the old fashioned way by dropping dead. Which also could happen at any minute as far as I know. Luke 12:20 always comes to mind regarding that.

 

[ozso]

Ya think? In what English translation of the Vulgate does that happen? None that I can find.

(4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1Th 4:16-17 DRB

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

So what's the Catholic interpretation of that verse? I'm not really familiar with Catholic eschatology.

 

[Clare73]

Ya think? In what English translation of the Vulgate does that happen? None that I can find.

(4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1Th 4:16-17 DRB

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

He translated it from Greek into Latin 1650 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

It was translated into English about 500 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

 

[Clare73]

Ya think? In what English translation of the Vulgate does that happen? None that I can find.

(4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1Th 4:16-17 DRB

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

He translated it into Latin 1650 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

It was translated into English almost 500 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

 

[Clare73]

It all depends on what interpretation of scripture one believes in. Either you believe scripture supports a doctrine or you don't. In this case it doesn't matter much, because if there is a rapture, I'll get raptured whether I believe in it or not. I think though I'm probably going to end up meeting Jesus the old fashioned way by dropping dead. Which also could happen at any minute as far as I know. Luke 12:20 always comes to mind regarding that.

Accuracy and truth regarding Scripture matters to me always.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

He translated it from Greek into Latin 1650 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

It was translated into English about 500 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

yes and yes. You do not, it seems.