Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

God controls those natural events.
The next one to happen, will be the Sixth Seal, a huge Coronal Mass Ejection which will literally fulfil all the graphically stated Prophesies about the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
The world will never be the same again.

Prove that seals 1-5 have already been opened.

Prove there’s “fiery wrath” in the Trib against believers.

 

[keras]

Prove that seals 1-5 have already been opened.

History tells us about the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 yeras.
The Christian martyrs started with Stephen and are still ongoing.

Prove there’s “fiery wrath” in the Trib against believers.

Gods wrath is against the godless peoples. We must call upon His Name to receive protection. AND to endure until the end.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

History tells us about the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 yeras.
The Christian martyrs started with Stephen and are still ongoing.

Gods wrath is against the godless peoples. We must call upon His Name to receive protection. AND to endure until the end.

History tells us about the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 yeras.
The Christian martyrs started with Stephen and are still ongoing.

Gods wrath is against the godless peoples. We must call upon His Name to receive protection. AND to endure until the end.

You’re generalizing, and that won’t work.

Here are details from the 4th seal, in Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Show me when one horseback rider named Death, and followed by Hades, caused 25% of the world’s population to be killed in only weeks or months, specifically with war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts of the earth.

 

[keras]

You’re generalizing, and that won’t work.

Here are details from the 4th seal, in Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Show me when one horseback rider named Death, and followed by Hades, caused 25% of the world’s population to be killed in only weeks or months, specifically with war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts of the earth.

You are clueless about history.
Over the last 2000 years, there has been about a quarter of all the people born, having died of war, famine and plague.

The Fifth Seal proves it was opened when Jesus Ascended. The souls of the Christian martyrs have the honor of being kept under the Altar in heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are clueless about history.
Over the last 2000 years, there has been about a quarter of all the people born, having died of war, famine and plague.

The Fifth Seal proves it was opened when Jesus Ascended. The souls of the Christian martyrs have the honor of being kept under the Altar in heaven.

Keras, each seal has to be physically opened. Who opened the 5th seal?

Rev 5:2-5 (ESV): And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,4 and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, the Trib will unfold as written. Rev 7 does not carry a disclaimer. That means Rev 7:1-8 will be fulfilled by God, in ways that only He can do.

Despite your nullifying the meaning of "tribulation" in Rev 1:9, I'll take the Lord's word for it. And since He Himself said that anyone who doesn't believe in Him will be utterly destroyed from among the people of God. The modern pagan antichrist nation of Israel is no exception. Every single promise given is fulfilled only in Christ, not outside of Him. 2 Corinthians 1:20

 

[keras]

You’re generalizing, and that won’t work.

Here are details from the 4th seal, in Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Show me when one horseback rider named Death, and followed by Hades, caused 25% of the world’s population to be killed in only weeks or months, specifically with war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts of the earth.

You are clueless about history.
Over the last 2000 years, there has been about a quarter of all the people born, haveing died of war, famine and plague.

The Fifth Seal proves it was opened when Jesus Ascended. The souls of the Christian martyrs have the honor of being kept under the Altar in heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Despite your nullifying the meaning of "tribulation" in Rev 1:9, I'll take the Lord's word for it. And since He Himself said that anyone who doesn't believe in Him will be utterly destroyed from among the people of God. The modern pagan antichrist nation of Israel is no exception. Every single promise given is fulfilled only in Christ, not outside of Him. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Rev 7 carries no disclaimer. What it says WILL occur. You Preterists base your beliefs that are contrary to the Bible.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Despite your nullifying the meaning of "tribulation" in Rev 1:9, I'll take the Lord's word for it. And since He Himself said that anyone who doesn't believe in Him will be utterly destroyed from among the people of God. The modern pagan antichrist nation of Israel is no exception. Every single promise given is fulfilled only in Christ, not outside of Him. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 to keep “you” from the hour of trial (the 7-year Trib). That proves Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib of the Church.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are clueless about history.
Over the last 2000 years, there has been about a quarter of all the people born, haveing died of war, famine and plague.

The Fifth Seal proves it was opened when Jesus Ascended. The souls of the Christian martyrs have the honor of being kept under the Altar in heaven.

Rev 5:1-5 prove that each seal is opened by breaking its seal, and that only Jesus can do that. Rev 5 also makes it clear that Jesus will open the seals, one at a time, to start the Trib.

After the 7th seal is opened, then the trumpets will soon be sounded. After the 7th trumpet is sounded, the bowls are next.

You Preterists base your beliefs on data that is contrary to the Bible.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 7 carries no disclaimer. What it says WILL occur. You Preterists base your beliefs that are contrary to the Bible.

And it did occur just like He said it would. "I am coming soon". No disclaimer there either. Rev 3:10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 to keep “you” from the hour of trial (the 7-year Trib). That proves Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib of the Church.

Well, look what He promised "you" here:
Rev 2:9“‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

And then the same "you" along with the same synagogue of Satan is plaguing "you" here:

Rev 3:9Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.
Let's see how your claim that "keep" means "rapture" works. 10Because you have "raptured" my word about patient endurance, I will "rapture" you...
And anyone who wants to, can see that the word "keep" never meant "rapture".
Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- 71 Occurrences

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Well, look what He promised "you" here:
Rev 2:9“‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

And then the same "you" along with the same synagogue of Satan is plaguing "you" here:

Rev 3:9Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.
Let's see how your claim that "keep" means "rapture" works. 10Because you have "raptured" my word about patient endurance, I will "rapture" you...
And anyone who wants to, can see that the word "keep" never meant "rapture".
Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- 71 Occurrences

Ed, the “hour of trial that is coming on the whole world” is the 21 judgments of God’s wrath in the 7-year Trib. That 7-year-long series of 21 judgments has not yet occurred. The 21 judgments of God’s wrath start in Rev 6:1-2 and they continue for about seven years to their completion in Rev 16.

Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial…” That’s a promise to rapture the Church straight to Heaven, as is guaranteed by the as-of-yet unfulfilled Rev 4:1.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, the “hour of trial that is coming on the whole world” is the 21 judgments of God’s wrath in the 7-year Trib. That 7-year-long series of 21 judgments has not yet occurred. The 21 judgments of God’s wrath start in Rev 6:1-2 and they continue for about seven years to their completion in Rev 16.

Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial…” That’s a promise to rapture the Church straight to Heaven, as is guaranteed by the as-of-yet unfulfilled Rev 4:1.

So, "you" have been kept from the hour of trial for 2000 years by dying, whether in "your" sleep or by being tortured to death. So, what happened to "your" promise. And what's the difference between "the trial" and being tortured to death?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So, "you" have been kept from the hour of trial for 2000 years by dying, whether in "your" sleep or by being tortured to death. So, what happened to "your" promise. And what's the difference between "the trial" and being tortured to death?

Ed, the “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib spoken of in Daniel 9:27, which is a very brief summary of Matt 24 and Rev 6-16. None of those verses have been fulfilled.

Please read Rev 5:1-5 and you will see that only Jesus can open the seal judgments, and that has not been done. Therefore, the Trib has not started, and once it does, it will continue for about seven years to its completion.

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled so Jesus’ promise in Rev 3:10 will be fulfilled by Rev 4:1.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Ed, the “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib spoken of in Daniel 9:27, which is a very brief summary of Matt 24 and Rev 6-16. None of those verses have been fulfilled.

Please read Rev 5:1-5 and you will see that only Jesus can open the seal judgments, and that has not been done. Therefore, the Trib has not started, and once it does, it will continue for about seven years to its completion.

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled so Jesus’ promise in Rev 3:10 will be fulfilled by Rev 4:1.

Daniel tells us that the Messiah the Prince comes AFTER the 69 weeks which is the 70th week, and there's no amount of transforming the scripture that will turn that into a 7 year tribulation. The only time Daniel mentions "tribulation" is in chapter 12 and says it will be for a time, times and half a time.
As to the opening of the seals, also in chapter 12, Daniel is told this: Daniel 12:4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
As you can see, the words of the prophecy would be revealed at the time of the end. Jesus opened up the seals in Rev chapter 6, at the time of the end, that's why He repeatedly said: "I am coming soon"
Also, knowledge would increase and men would travel to and fro. The greatest knowledge man has or ever would receive is the gospel of Jesus Christ and came in the generation that Christ called "this" generation, even as the disciples were commanded to go into all the world and preach it. And they did.
The "hour of trial" therefore was in the first century as John said: "it is the last hour" speaking of the antichrists that had already gone out into the world and therefore they knew it was the last hour.

 

[keras]

The "hour of trial" therefore was in the first century as John said: "it is the last hour" speaking of the antichrists that had already gone out into the world and therefore they knew it was the last hour.

Your efforts to refute false beliefs are commendable, but you shouldn't make obviously wrong statements, like the above.
2000 years ago was hardly 'the last hour'.

Atter the forthcoming Sixth Seal clearance of the Middle East region, then one powerful man will arise to lead the ungodly peoples. Rev 17:9-13

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Daniel tells us that the Messiah the Prince comes AFTER the 69 weeks which is the 70th week, and there's no amount of transforming the scripture that will turn that into a 7 year tribulation. The only time Daniel mentions "tribulation" is in chapter 12 and says it will be for a time, times and half a time.
As to the opening of the seals, also in chapter 12, Daniel is told this: Daniel 12:4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
As you can see, the words of the prophecy would be revealed at the time of the end. Jesus opened up the seals in Rev chapter 6, at the time of the end, that's why He repeatedly said: "I am coming soon"
Also, knowledge would increase and men would travel to and fro. The greatest knowledge man has or ever would receive is the gospel of Jesus Christ and came in the generation that Christ called "this" generation, even as the disciples were commanded to go into all the world and preach it. And they did.
The "hour of trial" therefore was in the first century as John said: "it is the last hour" speaking of the antichrists that had already gone out into the world and therefore they knew it was the last hour.

How long is a “week” and “half of the week” in Daniel 9:27?

Rev 5:1 (ESV): Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

Daniel 12:1 (ESV) … But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

Jesus will open a scroll, sealed with seven seals.

Daniel is talking about a book of names.

Rev 3:10 has not been fulfilled. Its “hour of trial” is what believers will be kept from and it’s only unbelievers who will be subjected to the “hour of trial.” Furthermore, the “hour of trial” is coming over the whole world. Therefore, all believers are taken away from the world, raptured to Heaven through Rev 4:1. Those facts invalidate your context as having anything to do with Rev 3:10.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Daniel tells us that the Messiah the Prince comes AFTER the 69 weeks which is the 70th week, and there's no amount of transforming the scripture that will turn that into a 7 year tribulation. The only time Daniel mentions "tribulation" is in chapter 12 and says it will be for a time, times and half a time.
As to the opening of the seals, also in chapter 12, Daniel is told this: Daniel 12:4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
As you can see, the words of the prophecy would be revealed at the time of the end. Jesus opened up the seals in Rev chapter 6, at the time of the end, that's why He repeatedly said: "I am coming soon"
Also, knowledge would increase and men would travel to and fro. The greatest knowledge man has or ever would receive is the gospel of Jesus Christ and came in the generation that Christ called "this" generation, even as the disciples were commanded to go into all the world and preach it. And they did.
The "hour of trial" therefore was in the first century as John said: "it is the last hour" speaking of the antichrists that had already gone out into the world and therefore they knew it was the last hour.

Here’s Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Daniel 9:27 is an extremely concise summary of the Trib. Matt 24 is also a summary of the Trib.

The first sentence in Daniel 9:27 is about the first half of the Trib. The second sentence cites “abominations” which occur in Matt 24:15, which marks the midpoint of the Trib. The last words of Daniel 9:27 (“until the decreed is poured out on the desolator”) occur in Rev 19:20).

Rev 11:2-3 also occur just before the midpoint. They say two activities start where one is 42 months long and the other is 1, 260 days long. Per the Jewish calendar, each month has only 30 days. Therefore, 42 months and 1,260 days both equal 3.5 years. Those two timeframes start at Matt 24:14 and Matt 24:16.

The timeframes that begin in Rev 11:2-3 represent the second half of the Trib. In Daniel 9:27, that begins at the “abominations” (Matt 24:15) and continues for 3.5 years (Rev 11:2-3) “until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator” Rev 19:20 (ESV): And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

The math from Rev 11:2-3 (42 months and 1,260 days) start just before the midpoint of the Trib (Matt 24:15). The second half of the Trib therefore = 3.5 years. Therefore, the first half of the Trib (Matt 24:1-14) is 3.5 years long from the first sentence of Daniel 9:27 and Matt 24:1-14 (a summary of the first half of the Trib).

The Trib occurs in Rev 6 through Rev 16. The seals and trumpets start in Rev 6 and end in Rev 11. The wars, famine, pestilence and wild beasts all begin in Rev 6. Then the midpoint (Matt 24:15) and two timeframes run concurrently for 3.5 years through the second half.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your efforts to refute false beliefs are commendable, but you shouldn't make obviously wrong statements, like the above.
2000 years ago was hardly 'the last hour'.

Atter the forthcoming Sixth Seal clearance of the Middle East region, then one powerful man will arise to lead the ungodly peoples. Rev 17:9-13

Your misunderstanding is still evident. The seals are followed by the trumpets which are followed by the bowls. You Preterists say that seals 1-5 occurred thousands of years ago, but no seals 6-7 and no seven trumpets and seven bowls.

You both misunderstand Rev 5:1-5 and Daniel 9:27. The Trib is seven years long and those seven years are not broken up over thousands of years. Those seven years start with Rev 6:1-2 and you can’t prove the ceremony used to open the seals has occurred in Rev 5.