Born again morality as opposed to the worlds morality.

[stevevw]

I have been thinking about this comparison as I have transformed under Christ. God says He is the potter and we are the clay. As born again Christians we have a new nature and sin cannot live in us anymore. We are constantly being rebuked and handing over to God our sinful desires and own will in an ongoing transformastion that gets us closer and closer to being Christlike.

How does this comapred with the worlds ideologies on morality. Is this more like the old law of Moses. No matter what system or basis that is used it will always be a law or a norm that people must uphold but be forever falling short. Thus sin is never overcome and what may seem moral or good works is in the end a system doomed to fail according to Christs teachings.

For it is not the law that makes us justified but Christ who lives in us which transforms our sinful nature to want to obey God by nature not by good works.

 

[d taylor]

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​

Christ does not automatically transform, the believer must be a willing child to be transformed. As Ananias, and Sapphira were not willing and this cost these born again children their earthly live.
Same with many born again believers that lost their life or became sick, because of their sins celebrating the Lords Supper.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have been think about this comparison as I have transformed under Christ. God says He is the potter and we are the clay. As born again Christians we have a new nature and sin cannot live in us anymore. We are constantly being rebuked and handing over to God our sinful desires and own will in an ongoing transformastion that gets us closer and closer to being Christlike.

How does this comapred with the worlds ideologies on morality. Is this more like the old law of Moses. No matter what system or basis that is used it will always be a law or a norm that people must uphold but be forever falling short. Thus sin is never overcome and what may seem moral or good works is in the end a system doomed to fail according to Christs teachings.

For it is not the law that makes us justified but Christ who lives in us which transforms our sinful nature to want to obey God by nature not by good works.

Good thread, Steve!

For one, the World's 'morality' is typically dysfunctional and very often prevents mutually sustaining, life-giving, long-term relationships.

The commands of the Father we've been given through Jesus Christ are life-giving, restorative, and loving, leading to healthy long-term relationships (and not just between husbands and wives), but even with neighbors and within our own selves, between us and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I have been think about this comparison as I have transformed under Christ. God says He is the potter and we are the clay. As born again Christians we have a new nature and sin cannot live in us anymore. We are constantly being rebuked and handing over to God our sinful desires and own will in an ongoing transformastion that gets us closer and closer to being Christlike.

How does this comapred with the worlds ideologies on morality. Is this more like the old law of Moses. No matter what system or basis that is used it will always be a law or a norm that people must uphold but be forever falling short. Thus sin is never overcome and what may seem moral or good works is in the end a system doomed to fail according to Christs teachings.

For it is not the law that makes us justified but Christ who lives in us which transforms our sinful nature to want to obey God by nature not by good works.

This is not a morality. It is just proclaiming that your are divinely special and can no longer be immoral. I first encountered this theology as an adult and it was the first time I was forced to think about what might be theologically correct and I could not condone this theological position. It was the first time I even considered questioning a theology. It was not the last.

 

[Hoping2]

I have been think about this comparison as I have transformed under Christ. God says He is the potter and we are the clay. As born again Christians we have a new nature and sin cannot live in us anymore. We are constantly being rebuked and handing over to God our sinful desires and own will in an ongoing transformation that gets us closer and closer to being Christlike.

As truly, sin cannot live in us anymore, what are "we" being rebuked for ?
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
The sinful desires you speak of, are just memories from the past, provided by satan in the false guise of a continued life in the flesh.
Walk in the Spirit, and "we" won't be able to do the things of the flesh. (Gal 5:16)

 

[stevevw]

Good thread, Steve!

For one, the World's 'morality' is typically dysfunctional and very often prevents mutually sustaining, life-giving, long-term relationships.

The commands of the Father we've been given through Jesus Christ are life-giving, restorative, and loving, leading to healthy long-term relationships (and not just between husbands and wives), but even with neighbors and within our own selves, between us and the Holy Spirit.

What do you think is the main incredient that living as a Christian has that the secular ideas of moral don't have. They obviously both have morals. They have some sort of basis for those morals. Even though secular ideas are not based on a moral lawgiver beyond humans some versions have an objective basis like human well being.

So whats the difference. What essense or spiritual or metaphysical aspect does the born again Christ have that the secular moralist doesn't have.

 

[stevevw]

As truly, sin cannot live in us anymore, what are "we" being rebuked for ?
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
The sinful desires you speak of, are just memories from the past, provided by satan in the false guise of a continued life in the flesh.
Walk in the Spirit, and "we" won't be able to do the things of the flesh. (Gal 5:16)

Yes but we still sin. We are not made perfect like Christ. That being no excuse to sin. Its the practice of sin which is the heart and mind in allowing sin to remain in us. Why do you think Paul keeps going on about confronting Christians in the church who may have sinned. He says take two of you and contront him and if he repents then he is saved. But if he doesn't then let the devil have his way.

There are a lot of verses about combating sin. There are obvious sins like sexual immorality or stealing that must stop. But there is an ongoing process like peeling away layers of an onion skin where we still hand over more and more as its revealed to us. Especially in this day and age which rationalises sin away. We are set to a higher standard and technically we are heading towards becoming like Christ. But we don't immediated become like Christ on day one of salvation.

I have know addicts and am one myself who gave their life to Christ but had many issues to overcome that led to a less them perfect life. Fears and other issues that held me back from giving all. But these were gradually overcome with support. Even a young Christian saved can be niaieve about what is being a Christian due to their immaturity. As they grow they become aware of ways in which they were actually falling short and then they must hand that over.

As it says in the bible God is the potter and we are the clay. A clay vase takes time to shape, to get all the imperfections out. Its when you hold onto those sins and they become a practice that you will threaten your salvation. The transformation of the heart and minds means a committment and disposition that you are forever handing over sin until you become more like Christ.

 

[stevevw]

This is not a morality. It is just proclaiming that your are divinely special and can no longer be immoral. I first encountered this theology as an adult and it was the first time I was forced to think about what might be theologically correct and I could not condone this theological position. It was the first time I even considered questioning a theology. It was not the last.

Then you don't understand the meaning. It is about morality because in the very same section Paul is speaking about the law, the moral law and how we are slaves to it.Being born again of the spirit is about breaking the chains of being a slave to sin by transforming our nation that is inclined to sin. Our nature is renewed in heart and mind so that it is no longer inclined to sin, it becomes allergic to sin in a sense because theres a new nature that cannot live with sin in them.

Therefore it is not by the persons own efforts in trying to keep the moral law but Christ that lives in them that causes them to be moral, to keep the moral law.

As opposed to say law and order or justice and retribution, an eye for as eye or trying as hard as you might to keep to all the moral laws which inevitable we fall short oin by our own effort. Because its not the desire to always be moral but the power of the law itself that makes people obey for fear of consequences or being socially unacceptable ect.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Then you don't understand the meaning.

I think I understand it well enough. At least within normal reasoning.

It is about morality because in the very same section Paul is speaking about the law, the moral law and how we are slaves to it.Being born again of the spirit is about breaking the chains of being a slave to sin by transforming our nation that is inclined to sin. Our nature is renewed in heart and mind so that it is no longer inclined to sin, it becomes allergic to sin in a sense because theres a new nature that cannot live with sin in them.

As I said, it is a proclamation that one is immune to immorality because of some divine providence, or specifically for this case "accepting Jesus into your heart".

Therefore it is not by the persons own efforts in trying to keep the moral law but Christ that lives in them that causes them to be moral, to keep the moral law.

Which is another way to phrase what I just wrote. After going through some "transformation" the person is no immue to immorality due to a divine causation. This is still not a moral system.

As opposed to say law and order or justice and retribution, an eye for as eye or trying as hard as you might to keep to all the moral laws which inevitable we fall short oin by our own effort. Because its not the desire to always be moral but the power of the law itself that makes people obey for fear of consequences or being socially unacceptable ect.

I thought you said you were Catholic, Steve. This whole thread is straight out of the born-again protestant theology basics. Whatever happened to "all fall short"? I don't want to discuss theology as it bores me immensely, but what you have written in this thread isn't a morality system of any kind.

 

[stevevw]

I think I understand it well enough. At least within normal reasoning.

From how you answered this shows you don't understand. In some ways I don't blame you as even Paul wrestles with this idea when he says I do what I know I don't want to do. He is expressing that our fallen nature causes us to naturally act in disobedience to God and theres nothing in him that can change this except being born again in Christ.

In other words in our fallen state we can never meet the moral law and will always be condemned as a sinner. That the moral law or any moral code alone is not enough to stop us sinning.

As I said, it is a proclamation that one is immune to immorality because of some divine providence, or specifically for this case "accepting Jesus into your heart".

That you say 'immune' shows your lack of understanding. Its not immune by some vaccine that prevents us from sinning. Its a disposition we choose in surrender and obewdience to God. Something beyond ourselves and human ideology as the god. We as fallen creatures still carry out weak flesh which we must resist with Gods help.

But it is conscience driven. The difference is now a Christian must obey his conscience. So its still a continual submittence to God and not some free pass.

Which is another way to phrase what I just wrote. After going through some "transformation" the person is no immue to immorality due to a divine causation. This is still not a moral system.

Like I said we are still moral humans not yet fully made like Christ. So we still have temptations and still have to be obedient to God. We could and some do chose not to. Many a Christian has fallen. David committed adultery and God said he had a heart after God. Our flesh human nature does not magically disappears. Its still there like for Christ. Christ chose obedience and was tempted just like us.

I thought you said you were Catholic, Steve. This whole thread is straight out of the born-again protestant theology basics. Whatever happened to "all fall short"? I don't want to discuss theology as it bores me immensely, but what you have written in this thread isn't a morality system of any kind.

Like I said I am Catholic by birth but am not a practicing Catholic. But much of Cathologism is Christian teachings. In fact its very much in line when you consider the CC has confession. They are acknowledging that beng a Christians doesn't mean you are immune from sin. That you must bring each sin to God and then work on ridding that sin.

As Paul said it is the practice of sin. To practice sin is to have a heart that desires to sin. It is ther heart that desires not to sin that leads to riding ones self of sin and in doing so naturally conforms to the moral law. Not because you have to or theres some grave consequence but because you desire to please God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What do you think is the main incredient that living as a Christian has that the secular ideas of moral don't have. They obviously both have morals. They have some sort of basis for those morals. Even though secular ideas are not based on a moral lawgiver beyond humans some versions have an objective basis like human well being.

So whats the difference. What essense or spiritual or metaphysical aspect does the born again Christ have that the secular moralist doesn't have.

The born again Christian has a different [SET] of moral values (or elements) than does the majority of non-Christian moralists, but the main ingredient (or element) the born again Christian has is the presence of God, the Holy Spirit in his/her life to direct and redirect our moral decisions.

For instance, we may see that both a Christian and a non-Christian could say, "I don't believe murder is morally right," and they would both have this as a common element in their respective [SET] of moral values and therefore decline from wantonly killing other people.

Conversely, however, we might then see that the Christian says, "I don't believe that sleeping around before marriage is moral," and thereby make the effort in daily life to avoid doing so, but the non-Christian insists that it's A-OK and racks up a body count, and we'd see, then, that although they both may have a moral element (or even several) in common, they also have at least TWO that are different:
i.e. ∉ the non-Christian would have and adhere to at least one immoral non-Christian dis-value and have a lack of the Holy Spirit.

 

[stevevw]

The born again Christian has a different [SET] of moral values (or elements) than does the majority of non-Christian moralists, but the main ingredient (or element) the born again Christian has is the presence of God, the Holy Spirit in his/her life to direct and redirect our moral decisions.

For instance, we may see that both a Christian and a non-Christian could say, "I don't believe murder is moral right," and they would both have this as a common element in their respective [SET] of moral values.

Conversely, however, we might then see that the Christian says, "I don't believe that sleeping around before marriage is moral," and thereby make the effort in daily life to avoid doing so, but the non-Christian insists that it's A-OK, and we'd see, then, that although they both may have a moral element (or even several) in common, they also have at least TWO that are different: i.e. ∉ the non-Christian would have and adhere to at least one immoral non-Christian dis-value and have a lack of the Holy Spirit.

Though I think some non Christians would argue that other religions have that magic ingredient as well. Call it some other spiritual identity that teaches good.

I agree that we all share some core morals. Studies show regardless of culture there are common morals that are around empathy and honoring others. Just as Christ summed up the law with the 2nd greatest commandment. It seems as humans morality naturally comes out in just living or trying to live together.

Christians are called to a particular standard of morality which seems to go against all the desires that the world believes are good and natural. That fullfill us as humans. So that seems like a hard ask if you consider giving up sex outside marriage in todays society is a big ask. Its almost if you don't have sex outside marriage something is wrong with you. Your sexually repressed or something lol.

But it certainly goes against our natural almost instinctive drives. Sor of to deanimalise ourselves and transcend our natural carnal desires. Though I don't think we should become Amish or anything like that lol.

But I remember playing for a local fotty club, there was about 3 of us from the local church playing among footy lads. I mean we were lads but didn't drink or smoke, went to church, and were pretty straigh on sexual morals which is the complete opposite in a local mens footy side lol.

I remember the coach saying one day 'whats wrong with you blokes'. I laughed. Not that drinkings wrong. We just didn't happen to get ino all that but loved footy.

Now if your caught expressing your faith in the wrong way or really in the wrong place your in trouble. Which I think shows these two moral worldviews or positions are conflicting now. Christian truths are no longer seen as just one of many religions all having the right to exist. As Christianity says certain accepted moral norms are sinful its more or less seen as attacking that morality. Being high and mighty.

 

[Hans Blaster]

From how you answered this shows you don't understand.

With dogma, some can be hard to figure out when you just accept them.

In some ways I don't blame you as even Paul wrestles with this idea when he says I do what I know I don't want to do. He is expressing that our fallen nature causes us to naturally act in disobedience to God and theres nothing in him that can change this except being born again in Christ.

Oh well, I guess that never happened for me.

In other words in our fallen state we can never meet the moral law and will always be condemned as a sinner. That the moral law or any moral code alone is not enough to stop us sinning.

Being a "sinner" without doing immoral things is yet another problem with Paul's theology, but it is not the topic of your OP.

That you say 'immune' shows your lack of understanding. Its not immune by some vaccine that prevents us from sinning. Its a disposition we choose in surrender and obewdience to God. Something beyond ourselves and human ideology as the god. We as fallen creatures still carry out weak flesh which we must resist with Gods help.

But it is conscience driven. The difference is now a Christian must obey his conscience. So its still a continual submittence to God and not some free pass.

Like I said we are still moral humans not yet fully made like Christ. So we still have temptations and still have to be obedient to God. We could and some do chose not to. Many a Christian has fallen.

I stand with my description of the problem as a supernatural prevention of moral violation that is divinely gifted, even if you want to weaken that power, you are still invoking it.

David committed adultery and God said he had a heart after God. Our flesh human nature does not magically disappears. Its still there like for Christ. Christ chose obedience and was tempted just like us.

It's highly unlikely that David accepted Jesus as his savior.

Like I said I am Catholic by birth but am not a practicing Catholic. But much of Cathologism is Christian teachings.

How about all of it? Catholicism is Christianity. Always has been, always will be.

In fact its very much in line when you consider the CC has confession. They are acknowledging that beng a Christians doesn't mean you are immune from sin. That you must bring each sin to God and then work on ridding that sin.

The theology you expressed in the OP is not Catholic. My Catholic understanding was precisely why it rubbed me the wrong way when I heard it the first time all those years ago. (Thanks street preacher with your OSAS/Sola fides/saved can do no sin preaching. It made me think about theology including my own and none passed muster.)

As Paul said it is the practice of sin. To practice sin is to have a heart that desires to sin. It is ther heart that desires not to sin that leads to riding ones self of sin and in doing so naturally conforms to the moral law. Not because you have to or theres some grave consequence but because you desire to please God.

 

[Hoping2]

Yes but we still sin. We are not made perfect like Christ.

Speak for yourself.
Some truly do turn from sin.

That being no excuse to sin. Its the practice of sin which is the heart and mind in allowing sin to remain in us. Why do you think Paul keeps going on about confronting Christians in the church who may have sinned. He says take two of you and contront him and if he repents then he is saved. But if he doesn't then let the devil have his way.

The accusations leveled at one or two others can in no way condemn the entire religion to continued rebellion against God.
The sinners were those the devil sent to make the church look bad.
They have made Christianity look weak, impure, and as bad as any unbeliever.

There are a lot of verses about combating sin. There are obvious sins like sexual immorality or stealing that must stop. But there is an ongoing process like peeling away layers of an onion skin where we still hand over more and more as its revealed to us. Especially in this day and age which rationalises sin away. We are set to a higher standard and technically we are heading towards becoming like Christ. But we don't immediated become like Christ on day one of salvation.

There are a lot of verses designed to combat temptation.
There are a lot of verses referring to the end of the old man too, and the beginning of the new man reborn from God's seed.

I have know addicts and am one myself who gave their life to Christ but had many issues to overcome that led to a less them perfect life. Fears and other issues that held me back from giving all. But these were gradually overcome with support. Even a young Christian saved can be niaieve about what is being a Christian due to their immaturity. As they grow they become aware of ways in which they were actually falling short and then they must hand that over.

If a new convert is only changing to be slightly better a person than he once was, that is as far as he will get.
If a new convert changes to be a perfectly obedient man, his course will alter totally.

As it says in the bible God is the potter and we are the clay. A clay vase takes time to shape, to get all the imperfections out. Its when you hold onto those sins and they become a practice that you will threaten your salvation. The transformation of the heart and minds means a committment and disposition that you are forever handing over sin until you become more like Christ.

If that molding is possible over a long period of time, how many of those totally-changed people have you ever met ?
None ?
Doesn't that speak of the inanity of the concept of gradual change ?

Our Molder completes His work at rebirth, following a true turn from sin.
From that point we will grow in grace and knowledge, but will not grow "more" pure.

 

[stevevw]

With dogma, some can be hard to figure out when you just accept them.

I don't think what Paul is talking about is dogma. Its an attempt to explain the battle between two natures involved in what Paul describes as the flesh nature which is our desires and instincts and our spiritual nature in Christ.

Oh well, I guess that never happened for me.

Well its essential for being born again. According to the bible we are fallen creatures with a perpensity for sin. Which is not just the 10 commandments ut our natural desires and instincts.

Secular ideology believes that our instincts and desires are natural and good. But being born again and living by the spirit rather than flesh means Christians no longer live by those instincts and desires. This seems like a loss to secular ideas of human fullfillment and thriving.

Being a "sinner" without doing immoral things is yet another problem with Paul's theology, but it is not the topic of your OP.

But who said it was not doing immoral things. This is just a difference in views on morality and the point of highlighting the difference between moral systems. Your assuming theres no sin according to your own moral worldview.

A good example is when Christ said even looking at a women in lust is commiting adultery. To secular ideas of morality this may even be seen as a good healthy sexual drive. But thats the opinion of social norms. Christians have the right to have their own beliefs about what constitutes sin and morality.

That you see this as not sin is just your moral view. If anything I would think its a positive. If the higher standard prevents people sinning and harming others and society then thats a good thing.

I stand with my description of the problem as a supernatural prevention of moral violation that is divinely gifted, even if you want to weaken that power, you are still invoking it.

But isn't that a view from the outside. Its never going to see from the inside as to what being born again is experienced. It seems more a cynnical and ill infomred or experienced view. Detached from the reality of being born again as something we embody and not just some magical spell put on us.

It's highly unlikely that David accepted Jesus as his savior.

Jesus is God made flesh. So David having a heart after God is having a heart after Christ.

How about all of it? Catholicism is Christianity. Always has been, always will be.

Well most of it. Not all Christians practice some of their traditions. But yes the teachings are Christian. Especially from Christ and then the diciples and the teachings for Christians and the church. Such as from Peter and Paul who were taught by Jesus and the Holy spirit.

The theology you expressed in the OP is not Catholic. My Catholic understanding was precisely why it rubbed me the wrong way when I heard it the first time all those years ago. (Thanks street preacher with your OSAS/Sola fides/saved can do no sin preaching. It made me think about theology including my own and none passed muster.)

Ok but you just said that Cathologism and Christianity are the same thing.

But I agree there was a particular angle Catholics took that scared and p***** a lot of people off. But that was not Christianity but more a fire and brimstone preaching. That was dogma.

I should know because it scared me off lol. Left me with Catholic guilt. Though in the right way thats not a bad thing. But when its used as emotional blackmail scare mongering to get people to coinform. Well thats not the gospel.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I don't think what Paul is talking about is dogma. Its an attempt to explain the battle between two natures involved in what Paul describes as the flesh nature which is our desires and instincts and our spiritual nature in Christ.

I've never felt this "spiritual nature" you speak of.

Well its essential for being born again. According to the bible we are fallen creatures with a perpensity for sin. Which is not just the 10 commandments ut our natural desires and instincts.

And I don't care about that since I don't believe it.

Secular ideology believes that our instincts and desires are natural and good.

"Secular ideology" is that the church should stay out of government. I don't know what you think it is.

But being born again and living by the spirit rather than flesh means Christians no longer live by those instincts and desires. This seems like a loss to secular ideas of human fullfillment and thriving.

Which is what I said, and why it doesn't make any logical sense.

But who said it was not doing immoral things. This is just a difference in views on morality and the point of highlighting the difference between moral systems. Your assuming theres no sin according to your own moral worldview.

No I was trying to use yours, *despite* the fact I don't believe in "sin".

A good example is when Christ said even looking at a women in lust is commiting adultery. To secular ideas of morality this may even be seen as a good healthy sexual drive. But thats the opinion of social norms.

That's just recasting a desire as a "thought-crime".

Christians have the right to have their own beliefs about what constitutes sin and morality.

Of course they do, and the rest of us can reject it equally well.

That you see this as not sin is just your moral view.

That I see *nothing* as "sin" is a "religious" view. Morality is a different category than offenses against the will of a god you don't believe in.

If anything I would think its a positive. If the higher standard prevents people sinning and harming others and society then thats a good thing.

But isn't that a view from the outside. Its never going to see from the inside as to what being born again is experienced. It seems more a cynnical and ill infomred or experienced view. Detached from the reality of being born again as something we embody and not just some magical spell put on us.

"Born again" is a concept that never made a lick of sense to me. Perhaps we should leave it at that.

Jesus is God made flesh. So David having a heart after God is having a heart after Christ.

Well most of it. Not all Christians practice some of their traditions. But yes the teachings are Christian. Especially from Christ and then the diciples and the teachings for Christians and the church. Such as from Peter and Paul who were taught by Jesus and the Holy spirit.

Ok but you just said that Cathologism and Christianity are the same thing.

What you are missing is some basic set theory.

When I say "Catholicism is Christianity" I might also say "Lutheranism is Christianity", but nether imply that "Christianity is Catholicism" or "Christianity is Lutheranism".

But I agree there was a particular angle Catholics took that scared and p***** a lot of people off. But that was not Christianity but more a fire and brimstone preaching. That was dogma.

I should know because it scared me off lol. Left me with Catholic guilt. Though in the right way thats not a bad thing. But when its used as emotional blackmail scare mongering to get people to coinform. Well thats not the gospel.

 

[stevevw]

Speak for yourself.
Some truly do turn from sin.

I am not saying we don't truely turn away from sin. That is our new disposition or state of the heart and mind that we turn away from sin. But this does not make us sinless. That we will never have any sin in us that needs confessing and handing over to God when made aware.

This is just simple reality in that a youth in Christ will not be like a man and will not see what is sin in the same way. A person saved for 10 years will not see sin as someone at 2 days. Its an ongoing relationship and transformation. Even Aquinnas knew this.

Yes, according to Thomas Aquinas, Christians, like all humans, are still capable of sin, even after receiving grace and salvation, due to the lingering effects of original sin and the ongoing struggle against temptation.

Why do you think Paul kept reminding, erging, instructing about sin in the church. He instructed that if someone sinned they were to be confronted and they should repent. If they don't then Paul says they are to be put out of the church so satan can have his way with them.

This implies Christians still battled with sin even within the church. Thats not to say that we are to continually be striving to be Christlike and should as Christians not be sinning, not aiming to sin and not practicing sin. We may sin or become aware of falling short and repent of this. Its the practice in not repenting and allowing it to happen again and again that will lead us away from God.

The sinners were those the devil sent to make the church look bad.
They have made Christianity look weak, impure, and as bad as any unbeliever.

Actually most I think were just ordinary Christians who may have sinned. When Paul speaks about confronting someone who has sinned in the congregation he implies that they can be rebuked and repent of that sin. They were people in the congregation already saved. He says that if the continue to want to hold onto that sin and not repent then they are to be put out of the church.

There are a lot of verses designed to combat temptation.
There are a lot of verses referring to the end of the old man too, and the beginning of the new man reborn from God's seed.

Yes and this language implies a seed that is planted that grows. The beginning of a transformation that will continue and never stop. I think a Christian can even relapse like the Prodigal son and come back home. They grow stronger and never do that again.

Whether thats not quiet being saved and now they are more fully saved or part of the Christian journey for some it seems for some its like peeling away the layers of an onion in ridding one self of their sinful nature. Which by the way never really dies because we still get tempted. Its the ability to put those temptations in Gods hands.

But someones as we are human, when maybe tragedy or circumstances cause someone to lose the way, they need GOd to remind them and help them get back on track. Then they should grow stronger from this and not repea the same until its second nature that they are made a different and stronger person over that particular issue they may have had in their life or childhood.

Some people may be made new instantly. But I have worked with addicts, mentally ill and I see a gradual transformation as God knocks down their fears and anger and they are a completely different person to the one that walked through the church doors.

If a new convert is only changing to be slightly better a person than he once was, that is as far as he will get.
If a new convert changes to be a perfectly obedient man, his course will alter totally.

I disagree. I have seen people who have been saved, myself being one where there was a gradual transformation. I know that because the person they started with is completely a different person to the one saved on day 1.

What yourt more or less saying that if a Christian sins one they are not really saved. All the best scholars agree that Christians sin. We are to become like Christ. But not many people start like Christ on day 1. I would say I am 99% like Christ as I still think I am not perfect. But I was maybe 60% when I started and gradually peeled away the sins that were deep within me.

An example would be as an addict they stop using drugs but some hold onto smoking. As addiction is a psychological as well as physical disease they can detox and get over the physical but the psychological takes time. They hold onto smoking but then gradually let go of that as well as they get strongerr in God. They then have to come to terms with their past and overcome the underlying issues that may cause them to fall short.

But with Gods help they face these and they are transformed even more. It is rare that I have seen someone in such a situation suddenly stop everything and overcome a lifetime of psychological damage overnight. Yet 1, 2, 10 and 30 years later these people are Christlike Christians. Whether they were saved or not or their journey was gradual it doesn't matter as they are Christians today.

If that molding is possible over a long period of time, how many of those totally-changed people have you ever met ?
None ?
Doesn't that speak of the inanity of the concept of gradual change ?

That I think is the difference between being saved and not. Those who keep handing over to God, sticking to that commitment and though the may take a couple of reminders or rebukes to let go, they still let go and allow God to mold their lives. Thats why Paul keeps reminding the church to stick to the teachings as he knows what the nature of sin is like.

He is the potter and I think its the change in disposition in that your willing to obey in the end. Those who don't their heart is hardened and they are lost. Some may need to live out that sin until they get to a point where they are willing to hand over to God.

Our Molder completes His work at rebirth, following a true turn from sin.
From that point we will grow in grace and knowledge, but will not grow "more" pure.

Then how do you explain all the Christians who are now better Christians and more like Christ who say they were not as Christlike in the past. Do we say they are fake Christians or were not saved until they became more Christlike.

Some people may well have an instantaneous change. I think it depends. Some with a lot of complex issues need therapy to overcome the damage done. That sometimes causes them to fall short. But so long as they keep handing everything to God they get stronger and more Christlike. The fact that they are Christlike today is testimony of this.

I am not talking about obvious sin like sexual immorality, stealing, the 10 commandments ect. Rather smaller sin, though sin is sin. Sin we are not even aware of and we are then made aware. For example I remember I found a tape in my car when I bought it. It was a copied one. I never thought much about and in fact thought it was a lucky find as it introduced me to a group who turned out to enrich my salvation as one member became a priest and I followed his journey which was like mine.

But later I realised that this was actually copy right infringement. I went out and bought the album. But maybe I was slack and should have been more aware. But once I realised I handed that over to God. God rebuked me by making me aware and I responded in obedience once I seen the error.

Now some may continue to think this is ok. Thats their level of awareness. Some may even copy music themselves in this day and age thinking its normal. They are then practicing that sin and it will turn into more sin. But if you become aware and hand it over then you are gradually peeling away these small imperfections to become more Christ like.

Heres a thought experiment. If a born again saved Christian gets into a fight defending his family and harms another or even kills them are they then unsaved. Or can they be forgiven and still be saved.

Or do you think there is such a thing as say a Christian who falls away can come back to God like the prodigal son. Or once they fall away that is it. They are no longer saved.

My Flesh Was Crucified — So Why Do I Still Sin?

My Flesh Was Crucified — So Why Do I Still Sin?

If our sinful flesh was crucified with Christ when we first believed, why do we keep sinning like we do?

www.desiringgod.org

Why do we still sin after salvation?

Why do we still sin after salvation? | GotQuestions.org

Why do we still sin after salvation? Why is sin still present in our lives after we have been saved?

www.gotquestions.org

Why Do Believers Still Sin?
Though we are saved eternally, the flesh has potential to sin until our lifelong sanctification is complete.
Although we truly have been made new in our spirit, we continue to live in a fallen world and have a disposition toward sin. What we must understand is that our redemption, which began at salvation, will not be completed until Jesus returns and transforms these sinful bodies to be glorious like His own. (Philippians 3:20-21).

Why Do Believers Still Sin?

Though we are saved eternally, the flesh has potential to sin until our lifelong sanctification is complete.

www.intouchcanada.org

 

[stevevw]

I've never felt this "spiritual nature" you speak of.

Ok well its essential to be born again. You could say its like a God conscience or consciousness. I think our conscience and Gods spirit are linked. Except its a particular kind of conscience and consciousness that is enlightened by Gods spirit. Like having Christ sitting on your shoulder reminding you of His teachings.

You can't get away from it. If you are tempted then theres an automatic voice bring up Gods word and a reminder of how weak you are in combating your sinful nature and temptations. So you allow Gods spirit to dwell in you which overcomes those temptations and weakness. Thats why Paul says "its no longer I that lives but Christ who lives in men". Which is the holy spirit.

And I don't care about that since I don't believe it.

Yes, I was just trying to explain the difference. You will obviously have your own basis for morality be it human wellbeing, humanism, life principles, social norms or subjective preferences and feelings.

"Secular ideology" is that the church should stay out of government. I don't know what you think it is.

Ok whatever you call that which is not a religious basis for morality. So I guess the metaphysical basis. Christians believe in something beyond the material world as the basis. The non religious base morality in something of this world, materialism, human wellbeing, naturalism.

Which is what I said, and why it doesn't make any logical sense.

Why, I think you will find behind any moral system theres a degree of sacrifice. It would not be a moral law that we had to live up to even when we did not feel like it or preferred to act differently.

Like blokes lol. They have to control their desires and lusts. Though some don't and society allows them that right to a degree. But we know that ultimately it calls for putting aside those desires for a higher moral value that respects and is self controlled.

Anything of great value comes with sacrifice of something. It is a core principle of Christianity. Even suffering for doing good above your own desires. This brings a greater value to life. We know this without Christianity. If someone wants to be successful in something they sacrifice the parties for the study ect.

No I was trying to use yours, *despite* the fact I don't believe in "sin".

Actually I think you were trying to use what you think mine is and not actually what it is.

That's just recasting a desire as a "thought-crime".

Lol thats one way to look at it. But maybe your calling them thought crimes because thats how you see it. What if Christ and Christians see it differently.

I actually see it as good psychology. Any action usually begins in the hear and mind. So Christ is highlighting that you are what you make yourself within. If you are always plugging into lust them your going to act on it. Your already doing it in your heart which will inevitably make you that person whether you act on it or not.

Of course they do, and the rest of us can reject it equally well.

It depends on how this is rejected. If someone for example expresses a Christian moral, say for marriage and then they lose their job over this then that is unfair. This is what is happening because modern social norms now clash with Christian morals.

Whereas in a supposed multicultural and relativistic society all beliefs and moral codes should be tolerated. Which in reality is impossible.

That I see *nothing* as "sin" is a "religious" view. Morality is a different category than offenses against the will of a god you don't believe in.

When we think of morality traditionally we have always associated this with religion and the gods. The moral laws that come from this may vary and will include behaviours as sin that non religious society would not.

But thats no different to society at large. Not everyone will have the same standards or include the same behaviours as immoral or moral. They are all basically trying to get at the same thing.

Often the behaviours or thinking that you may not think is sin like lust in the heart is based on good reasons associated with the action. So its going back to the root cause, the origin of where the immoral behaviour comes from. So its not really anything that we all know that the state of the heart and mind is what usually leads to the action.

What you are missing is some basic set theory.

When I say "Catholicism is Christianity" I might also say "Lutheranism is Christianity", but nether imply that "Christianity is Catholicism" or "Christianity is Lutheranism".

Yes I know they all have the same Christain core beliefs. Though I think some deny the divinity of Christ like Mormons and JW I think. But the theory if you can call it that is the New Testament. The Gospels and Christs teachings.

 

[Hoping2]

I am not saying we don't truely turn away from sin. That is our new disposition or state of the heart and mind that we turn away from sin.

I agree.

But this does not make us sinless. That we will never have any sin in us that needs confessing and handing over to God when made aware.

The sentences you posted prior to these, contradict you now.

This is just simple reality in that a youth in Christ will not be like a man and will not see what is sin in the same way. A person saved for 10 years will not see sin as someone at 2 days. Its an ongoing relationship and transformation. Even Aquinnas knew this.

A youth in Christ will have been given the same Holy Ghost, and been reborn of the same God.
Both will have the mind of Christ, and both will have God's escapes from temptations.
I cannot agree with you.

Yes, according to Thomas Aquinas, Christians, like all humans, are still capable of sin, even after receiving grace and salvation, due to the lingering effects of original sin and the ongoing struggle against temptation.

Why do you think Paul kept reminding, erging, instructing about sin in the church. He instructed that if someone sinned they were to be confronted and they should repent. If they don't then Paul says they are to be put out of the church so satan can have his way with them.

He does so because if they don't quit sinning they will perish.
If ongoing sin is expected, why exhort and admonish them to stop ?

This implies Christians still battled with sin even within the church. Thats not to say that we are to continually be striving to be Christlike and should as Christians not be sinning, not aiming to sin and not practicing sin. We may sin or become aware of falling short and repent of this. Its the practice in not repenting and allowing it to happen again and again that will lead us away from God.

Actually most I think were just ordinary Christians who may have sinned. When Paul speaks about confronting someone who has sinned in the congregation he implies that they can be rebuked and repent of that sin. They were people in the congregation already saved. He says that if the continue to want to hold onto that sin and not repent then they are to be put out of the church.

Yes and this language implies a seed that is planted that grows. The beginning of a transformation that will continue and never stop. I think a Christian can even relapse like the Prodigal son and come back home. They grow stronger and never do that again.

The fruit determines from whom one is born.

Whether thats not quiet being saved and now they are more fully saved or part of the Christian journey for some it seems for some its like peeling away the layers of an onion in ridding one self of their sinful nature. Which by the way never really dies because we still get tempted. Its the ability to put those temptations in Gods hands.

But someones as we are human, when maybe tragedy or circumstances cause someone to lose the way, they need GOd to remind them and help them get back on track. Then they should grow stronger from this and not repea the same until its second nature that they are made a different and stronger person over that particular issue they may have had in their life or childhood.

Some people may be made new instantly. But I have worked with addicts, mentally ill and I see a gradual transformation as God knocks down their fears and anger and they are a completely different person to the one that walked through the church doors.

I disagree. I have seen people who have been saved, myself being one where there was a gradual transformation. I know that because the person they started with is completely a different person to the one saved on day 1.

What yourt more or less saying that if a Christian sins one they are not really saved. All the best scholars agree that Christians sin. We are to become like Christ. But not many people start like Christ on day 1. I would say I am 99% like Christ as I still think I am not perfect. But I was maybe 60% when I started and gradually peeled away the sins that were deep within me.

An example would be as an addict they stop using drugs but some hold onto smoking. As addiction is a psychological as well as physical disease they can detox and get over the physical but the psychological takes time. They hold onto smoking but then gradually let go of that as well as they get strongerr in God. They then have to come to terms with their past and overcome the underlying issues that may cause them to fall short.

But with Gods help they face these and they are transformed even more. It is rare that I have seen someone in such a situation suddenly stop everything and overcome a lifetime of psychological damage overnight. Yet 1, 2, 10 and 30 years later these people are Christlike Christians. Whether they were saved or not or their journey was gradual it doesn't matter as they are Christians today.

That I think is the difference between being saved and not. Those who keep handing over to God, sticking to that commitment and though the may take a couple of reminders or rebukes to let go, they still let go and allow God to mold their lives. Thats why Paul keeps reminding the church to stick to the teachings as he knows what the nature of sin is like.

He is the potter and I think its the change in disposition in that your willing to obey in the end. Those who don't their heart is hardened and they are lost. Some may need to live out that sin until they get to a point where they are willing to hand over to God.

Then how do you explain all the Christians who are now better Christians and more like Christ who say they were not as Christlike in the past. Do we say they are fake Christians or were not saved until they became more Christlike.

Some people may well have an instantaneous change. I think it depends. Some with a lot of complex issues need therapy to overcome the damage done. That sometimes causes them to fall short. But so long as they keep handing everything to God they get stronger and more Christlike. The fact that they are Christlike today is testimony of this.

I am not talking about obvious sin like sexual immorality, stealing, the 10 commandments ect. Rather smaller sin, though sin is sin. Sin we are not even aware of and we are then made aware. For example I remember I found a tape in my car when I bought it. It was a copied one. I never thought much about and in fact thought it was a lucky find as it introduced me to a group who turned out to enrich my salvation as one member became a priest and I followed his journey which was like mine.

But later I realised that this was actually copy right infringement. I went out and bought the album. But maybe I was slack and should have been more aware. But once I realised I handed that over to God. God rebuked me by making me aware and I responded in obedience once I seen the error.

Now some may continue to think this is ok. Thats their level of awareness. Some may even copy music themselves in this day and age thinking its normal. They are then practicing that sin and it will turn into more sin. But if you become aware and hand it over then you are gradually peeling away these small imperfections to become more Christ like.

Heres a thought experiment. If a born again saved Christian gets into a fight defending his family and harms another or even kills them are they then unsaved. Or can they be forgiven and still be saved.

Or do you think there is such a thing as say a Christian who falls away can come back to God like the prodigal son. Or once they fall away that is it. They are no longer saved.

I don't feel that anyone bringing forth the devil's fruit ever was converted.

My Flesh Was Crucified — So Why Do I Still Sin?

My Flesh Was Crucified — So Why Do I Still Sin?

If our sinful flesh was crucified with Christ when we first believed, why do we keep sinning like we do?

www.desiringgod.org

Why do we still sin after salvation?

Why do we still sin after salvation? | GotQuestions.org

Why do we still sin after salvation? Why is sin still present in our lives after we have been saved?

www.gotquestions.org

Why Do Believers Still Sin?
Though we are saved eternally, the flesh has potential to sin until our lifelong sanctification is complete.
Although we truly have been made new in our spirit, we continue to live in a fallen world and have a disposition toward sin. What we must understand is that our redemption, which began at salvation, will not be completed until Jesus returns and transforms these sinful bodies to be glorious like His own. (Philippians 3:20-21).

Why Do Believers Still Sin?

Though we are saved eternally, the flesh has potential to sin until our lifelong sanctification is complete.

www.intouchcanada.org

 

[stevevw]

I agree.

The sentences you posted prior to these, contradict you now.

Ok so now I am clarifying as people take this the wrong way.

A youth in Christ will have been given the same Holy Ghost, and been reborn of the same God.
Both will have the mind of Christ, and both will have God's escapes from temptations.
I cannot agree with you.

I am speaking about maturity. About the ability to recognise sin and the thinking that goes with leading to falling short. Its a scientific fact that youths brains are not developed enough to even understand morality let alone sophiosticated nuances as to what is sin or not. An older wise man with much of lifes experience will see morality or be aware of what exactly is sin or not than a youth without that life experience.

For example an older male is over the hormonal explosion of puberty and young lust that comes as a result. They are settled, married and those influences have long lost their potency. To say that no Christian young man will engage in masturbation and that if they do they are no longer saved is unreal.

They will give into this temptation and they have to learn to deny the desires of the flesh. But it comes much easier for someone who is older and wiser and not as influenced by the power of hormonal development of youth.

But not just that young people will see some things that older people. We know this because surveys show a generational difference in what is regarded as sin. So in some cases we don't even agree on what is sin let alone be able to say that Christians don't commit sin.

He does so because if they don't quit sinning they will perish.

Yes exactly. So they may sin occassionally or be made aware of a sin they have committed and they are to repent and hand that over. If they don't then as Paul says they are practiucing sin. They are repeating the sin and holding onto to it for some reason.

There is a big difference between becoming aware that one has sinned and repenting of it and holding on and not. One cultivates a heart that is sinful. The other is transforming the heart to be more Christlike.

If ongoing sin is expected, why exhort and admonish them to stop ?

Its not expected. This is the assumption that because people say that a Christian can still sin that this opens the floodgates to ongoing sin. It doesn't because it all depends on what you do with that sin. If you keep handing it over to God then you will have less and less sin. The floodgates will not open because your practicing getting rid of sin. Thats the attitude and disposition that we get rid of sin and keep doing so.

The fruit determines from whom one is born.

Yes and good fruit will come from someone who is handing sin to God so that He can transofrm them to produce good fruit. Those who practice sinning and hold onto sin will inevitably produce bad fruits because in holding one sin it turns into two and three and more until you become that sin. Rather than letting go of sin to become like Christ.

I don't feel that anyone bringing forth the devil's fruit ever was converted.

I agree. But theres a difference between occassional sin not practiced but as part of becoming aware of the deeper ways sin can happen to practicing sin which is really cultivating bad fruit.