Why John 6:37-40 Can’t Support Eternal Security

[BNR32FAN]

9. God is Faithful Even When We Are Not – “If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself” (2 Timothy 2:13). If salvation depended on our faithfulness, we’d all be lost.

I’ve lost count on how many times I’ve addressed this on in this thread.

 

[BNR32FAN]

10. Believers Are Predestined for Glory – Romans 8:30 says those He justified, He also glorified. There is no mention of some falling away in the process.

“and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Those who are predestined were chosen before creation according to The Father’s foreknowledge of those who would abide in Christ and endure to the end. People who deny Christ are not predestined to salvation. What you’re talking about is a completely different perspective. I’m not saying that names will be blotted out of the book of life, I don’t believe that is possible because those names were written according to The Father’s foreknowledge before creation. But what we do in our lifetime dictates what God has already foreseen before creation. So the choices we make during our lifetime dictates what God foresaw and influences His choice about whether we will be written in the book of life or not. What I’m talking about is a person could’ve been on the path to being written in the book of life then turned away from Christ and lost the salvation that he would’ve received if he hadn’t turned away. That’s the loss of salvation I’m talking about. The person could’ve been saved but he lost it because he didn’t remain steadfast in his faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

11. Sin Was Paid for in Full – Jesus said, “It is finished” (John 19:30). If salvation could be lost, then sin was not fully paid for.

Yes, it is finished, Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, not just our sins. Does that mean that the whole world will be saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

13. Salvation is Being Born Again – A person cannot be unborn once they are spiritually reborn (John 3:3-7).

A person doesn’t have to be “unborn” to die the second death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

14. Jesus Prayed for Our Security – In John 17:11-12, Jesus prayed that the Father would keep those given to Him. His prayers are always answered.

Those that the Father had given Him were those who were drawn by The Father before His crucifixion. That drawing by The Father has been obsolete since His crucifixion, hence John 12:32.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

See the difference? Before in John 6 it was “no one can come to Me unless The Father draws him” now all men are drawn to Christ thru His gospel. That prayer was for His disciples before His crucifixion to keep them between the time He was away from them and when they were to receive the Holy Spirit. During His ministry they were kept by His power and now in His absence He asks The Father to be their guide until they receive the Holy Spirit. One thing that is demonstrated countless times throughout scripture is that God never forces anyone to obey Him, to accept Him, or to abide in Him. Scripture has continuously demonstrated that from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Clare73]

Now there you go with this TRUE faith garbage. Unbelievable!

Who rubbed you with a hot brick? (Get over yourself, my old friend.)

Please state chapter and vs. where the distinction is made.

1Jn 2:19.

They believed ("went out from us") "but they were not "of us,"
So what kind of faith was it?
It was counterfeit. . .man-made and not sovereignly (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) Holy Spirit-made (Jn 3:3-5).

So Simon Magnus had faith but not TRUE faith. So the seed sown among the thorns sprouted roots but they were not REAL roots but fake roots.

Precisely. . .

Review the parable. . .it's not about the roots of the seed, it's about the soil of the seed; unregenerated or
sovereignly (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) regenerated heart (Jn 3:3-5).

This added adjective/abverb to Scripture is all over the place in modern evangelicalism. And apparently you can't see it, as you use this stuff.

Just what is the difference between faith and TRUE faith? Between belief and TRUE belief?

One is of human-only choice, the other is of the Holy Spirit.
All those leaving the faith had counterfeit faith, for true faith of the Holy Spirit is kept by the power of God (1 Pe 1:5).
Any faith not kept by the power of God is counterfeit faith, of human-only choice.

 

[Clare73]

Too narrowing defined.

Not my definition. . .the statement defines itself. . .it's the plain word of Scripture.

You either believe it or you don't.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

The last thing I wanted to do here is a full blown analysis of Apostasy which will taken a week or two. I John 2 can be used in some cases in the NT but certainly not all...I will probably have to deal with 50 verses of Apostasy compared to your three. And I don't use the hermenuetic principle when the Bible says faith it really means unbelief (as specific contexts do not permit this interpretation). And I have seen alot of the principle here at CF: When the Bible says this....it really means that.

Will I John 2:19 be the final filter for all apostasy texts? We shall see.

This is certainly a hot button topic. The Orthodox, Rome, Lutherans, Anglicans and early Anabaptists side with apostasy. Calvinists certianly side with Perseverance, along with a great many American Evangelicals etc. Side the Perseverance.

My own thoughts on this: I take all the perseverance texts in the Scriptures and put them in one bucket. Then all the apostasy texts in another bucket....then teach according....but one thing I don't do is TRY TO RECONCILE THEM. I can easily leave with the tension between the two teachings of Scripture. Some people can't.

What then is the comfort of the Christian who is concerned with whether or not they have committed apostasy? The diagnostic question: Do you believe the Gospel promises of Scripture. Believing the Gospel promises of Scripture gives certainty to faith. “Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.”

 

[Clare73]

The last thing I wanted to do here is a full blown analysis of Apostasy which will taken a week or two. I John 2 can be used in some cases in the NT but certainly not all...I will probably have to deal with 50 verses of Apostasy compared to your three. And I don't use the hermenuetic principle when the Bible says faith it really means unbelief (as specific contexts do not permit this interpretation). And I have seen alot of the principle here at CF: When the Bible says this....it really means that.
Will I John 2:19 be the final filter for all apostasy texts? We shall see.
This is certainly a hot button topic. The Orthodox, Rome, Lutherans, Anglicans and early Anabaptists side with apostasy. Calvinists certianly side with Perseverance, along with a great many American Evangelicals etc. Side the Perseverance.

My own thoughts on this: I take all the perseverance texts in the Scriptures and put them in one bucket. Then all the apostasy texts in another bucket....then teach according....but one thing I don't do is TRY TO RECONCILE THEM.

I find no conflict therein when understood in the light of all the NT, which presents
both genuine faith, kept by the power of God (1 Pe 1:5), and counterfeit faith, which is not kept by the power of God (1 Jn 2:19).

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Not my definition. . .the statement defines itself. . .it's the plain word of Scripture.

I find no conflict therein when understood in the light of all the NT,
which presents both genuine faith (Eph 2:8-9) and counterfeit faith (1 Jn 2:19).

Finally, the presupposition: You are a reconciililst. I along with Rome, the Orthodox, Lutherans, Arminians, Anglicans, and Methodists are not.

I will not be studying Apostasy.... for you will run all of them through the I Jn 2:19 filter and teaching texts of Apostasy (of which there is alot) will turn into "a counterfeit faith." A easy solution for reconcililists.

I on the otherhand, have in the past have examined the Apostasy passages of Scripture and believe the word "faith" contextually is not a "counterfeit faith" but actual fides quae.

I am done with this.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So how does this line up with 2 Timothy 2:12? If we deny Him, He will deny us. Why is Paul warning Timothy of something that you claim is impossible for either of them to do?

I don't know. There are lots of verses people use to support the idea that people can become unsaved through unbelief, disobedience, faithlessness, denial of Christ, not taking advantage of God's grace, etc. But when I read verses like 2 Timothy 2:12 that say, "If we deny Him, He will deny us", it almost never occurs to me that the warning applies to me because I do not worry about losing my salvation.

I have an itimate personal relationship with the Lord. Over the years, He has convinced me that I am safe in His arms. Only He has the power to send people to hell, and instead of giving me what I deserve for the sins and sinfulness of my flesh, He has chosen to raise me from the dead and give me His life. And though the devil is more powerful than I am, there is nobody stronger than God who keeps me safe.

Besides all that, I am a new creation in Christ. In my innermost being, I love God, the things of God, the people of God, and the lost among us who need to be saved. I have no fear that who I have become in Christ can be turned back to the dark side. And I didn't do anything of merit to obtain new life in Christ, and I am not working hard to keep it or prove that I derserve it.

That probably doesn't answer the question, but at least you know why I don't worry about it.

 

[Clare73]

Finally, the presupposition: You are a reconciililst.

Imagine that!

The God of truth does not contradict himself in his word.
And if you think he does, your understanding is incorrect.

I along with Rome, the Orthodox, Lutherans, Arminians, Anglicans, and Methodists are not.

Why a low human view of the word of God.

 

[Dan Perez]

both verses point to the importance of remaining faithful to Christ. This isn’t about an occasional stumble or moment of doubt but about a deliberate rejection of Jesus, which will result in being denied by Him at the end of time.

# 1 IT is speaking to Israel , period !

# 2 And not to the BODY of Christ !

# 3 John 6:40 says everyone that SEETH // THEOREO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , PARTICILE MOOD

in the SGNULAR .

# 4 Then comes the Greek word THE // HO , is a DEFINITE ARTICLE , which is pointing to the next Greek word

SON // HURIOS , in the Greek ACCUSATIVE CASE , means LIMITED in the SINGULAR , meaning one at a time .

And I have already written a word for word explanation of 2 n Tim 2:12 -13 I believe , under DISPENSATION TITLE !!

dan p

 

[Longing to kneel]

# 1 IT is speaking to Israel , period !

# 2 And not to the BODY of Christ !

# 3 John 6:40 says everyone that SEETH // THEOREO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , PARTICILE MOOD

in the SGNULAR .

# 4 Then comes the Greek word THE // HO , is a DEFINITE ARTICLE , which is pointing to the next Greek word

SON // HURIOS , in the Greek ACCUSATIVE CASE , means LIMITED in the SINGULAR , meaning one at a time .

And I have already written a word for word explanation of 2 n Tim 2:12 -13 I believe , under DISPENSATION TITLE !!

dan p

Your claim that these verses "only apply to Israel" is not biblically sustainable. The New Testament was not divided into sections for different people groups. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable (2 Tim 3:16) — and that includes the warnings and promises regarding faithfulness to Christ. Paul himself, the apostle to the Gentiles, warned believers in the Body of Christ to continue in the faith (Col. 1:21–23), saying plainly:

“if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...”



Why would Paul say that if there were no consequences for deliberate rejection of Christ? Was he writing to Israel there? No — to the Gentile believers in Colossae. Same with Romans 11, where he tells Gentile believers:

“Do not be arrogant, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.” (Rom. 11:20–21)



This is not Israel. This is the church. The Body of Christ. And the warning is clear.

As for John 6:40 — your parsing of the Greek grammar doesn’t refute the meaning of the verse. Yes, the present active participle “theōrōn” (sees) refers to continuous action — but that supports the point: it speaks of ongoing, active belief. This affirms that faith is not a one-time glance at Jesus, but a continual trust. And that’s exactly what I said in my quote — a life of faithfulness, not a moment of religious excitement.

And while you dissect grammar, Jesus was clear in John 15:6:

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered...”



Are you going to claim that doesn’t apply to the Body of Christ either? Because He said it to His disciples, who would form the foundation of the Church.

Bottom lin. The entire New Testament, from Jesus’ own words to Paul’s letters, calls believers to endure, to remain faithful, and not to deny Christ. The idea that we can rip these warnings out of context and say they “don’t apply to us” is not only unscriptural — it’s dangerous.