Heaven Or Hell

[Aaron112]

Can animals receive/understand revelation?. . .Why not?

Yes, usually better than humans.
Like the donkey.

 

[fhansen]

The immortal soul doctrine, which is obviously not from God, but his adversary is primarily what has corrupted church doctrine.

How has the "immortal soul doctrine" corrupted church doctrine? That understanding only serves to undergird God's justice, that, being all wise and all good, the existence He gives us is inherently good in itself with no need or intention to be retracted or taken back away. If we abuse that gift, if we choose to persistently remain in sin and selfishness and pride and opposition to God IOW, then there are likewise eternal consequences-that of being permanently excused from His presence. That's only a good thing for us to know.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, usually better than humans.
Like the donkey.

The donkey didn't receive revelation. . .God used his vocal chords to speak (Nu 22:28), like I use my puppy's paw to wave.

 

[Aaron112]

The donkey didn't receive revelation. . .God used his vocal chords to speak, like I use my puppy's paw to wave.

It's probable or likely I guess you don't receive revelation either. God's Choice.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, usually better than humans.
Like the donkey.

I'll translate: You have no answer.

 

[CoreyD]

Pretty good I think, accurate as far as it goes.
One thing perhaps to note - everyone who passes, (dies or 'sleeps' in the grave),
will be resurrected and to them , from Adam to Abraham to Moses thru today ,
when they are each and all resurrected, to them it will be just as if less than a second has passed, even though hundreds or thousands of years have passed where there is time on earth.

That is so true... except in the case of the wicked, who gain no resurrection. Proverbs 10:28; Proverbs 11:7
Of course, we cannot determine whom God has written off as wicked, but we know that some who did terrible things, are considered unrighteous, not wicked, and the unrighteous will get a resurrection Acts 24:15, so that they may have a chance to learn the truth.

So, imagine seeing some of the Assyrians, or even the Philistines. Matthew 11:23, 24; Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:14, 15;
It would be interesting to see the Philistines who fought David, meeting in paradise. They could become brothers and live forever.

 

[CoreyD]

Hi Corey - we don't go by feelings, even what we might say is "God's voice", we go by scripture. And scripture says that Paradise is heaven. To be caught up to it, it shows it is not on the earth.






The scripture is quite plain in it's meaning.




Carried away means he left the earth, to be carried away means to leave where you are.




Rev 22:1-2 says the tree of life is in heaven. Rev 2:7 calls it the Paradise of God.

Rev 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '​

Also we only have to look to the story of Lazarus in the bible. To see both heaven, and hell are real places where we have consciousness.

Luke 16:22-26 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'​

Thanks for sharing what you believe.

 

[CoreyD]

Some people will say but the Old Testament speaks of a sleep in death. But the OT does not specifically mean men sleep in death. If you look at the whole of the OT it speaks of a firey end to the wicked, in a prision or pit.

Hello FAH, did you not tell me a moment ago, "The scripture is quite plain in it's meaning. Carried away means he left the earth, to be carried away means to leave where you are."?
I'm just wondering, when do you decide that it's okay to change the meaning, or how does the meaning change, when you decide on it?

 

[CoreyD]

You can't make a doctrine out of one verse. Read what Jesus actually taught about death:

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."

This is one verse, isn't it, and a parable, isn't it?
Did you consider the verses @SabbathBlessings used, and what they said?
Can I ask... do you acknowledge that this is a parable... Can you answer yes or no, please?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@1Tonne @CoreyD

It’s nice to see more people come to these plain Bible Truths about the dead, because I believe in the end there will be a huge deception with spiritualism. We many not agree on all doctrine but its refreshing to see people studying the Bible for themselves and not going with the popular crowd, but molding our teachings to God’s Word.

God bless!

 

[CoreyD]

The firstfruit is Christ

1 Cor 15 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.



I think there’s way to many scriptures not in its proper order I’ll try to go through some of them later and in regards to your first point, in Heb 11 the righteous did not rise not because they were not saved, because the resurrection of life for Gods saints or righteous has not happened.

There is more that is saved than the 144,000 it doesn't say who they are other than they are God’s people. I believe they will be like the 12 disciples in the last days spreading the everlasting gospel Rev 14:6-13 but they will not be the only ones who are saved or are righteous or are saints. Rev 7:9 God saints are anyone who keeps God’s commandments (His version) and has the faith of Jesus Rev 14:12

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This is the antidote for receiving the mark of the beast as seen in the verse prior Rev 14:11. Again this shows just two groups, not three, lost or saved.

There is no scripture that says there are two resurrections for the saved, there are only two resurrections at the end of time, one for the saved and they live with Christ a 1000 years and do not fear the Second death that kills both the body and the soul and the consequences of sin i.e. death. Blessed and holy are those in the first resurrection and if there is a first that means there has to be a second. The second is for the sinners and for the devil and his angles. It’s seems to be all laid out plainly in Rev 20.



Rev 21: 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

You have not read my post.
If you did, you have not acknowledged, nor addressed it.
Can you do so now please.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You have not read my post.
If you did, you have not acknowledged, nor addressed it.
Can you do so now please.

I read most of it, but admit to not reading all of it, I was not seeing thing in the order in how I understand scripture in the sequence of end times.

I will go back and read your post and read the verses and try to respond in a better manner. Thanks for the opportunity. It may be a couple days.

 

[CoreyD]

@1Tonne @CoreyD

It’s nice to see more people come to these plain Bible Truths about the dead, because I believe in the end there will be a huge deception with spiritualism. We many not agree on all doctrine but its refreshing to see people studying the Bible for themselves and not going with the popular crowd, but molding our teachings to God’s Word.

God bless!

I hope, by "studying the Bible for themselves", you don't mean actually sitting and studying and asking God to fill you with Revelation, because that is not my experience, and doing so, never brings one to truth.
Without help, and guidance, from God's people - the witnesses of Jesus Acts 8:26-31, we come to our own faulty conclusions.
I had lots of guidance, and yes, I did what the Beroeans did.

Now these, who were more noble than those in Thessalonica, received the word with all readiness, on every day examining the Scriptures, whether these things were so.
Acts 17:11
​

Without the help of Jesus followers, we are lost.
We can be close, and that's a good thing, because we are not far off, from the kingdom Mark 12:34, but we need to make sure we get the correct, or accurate knowledge of truth, since this is God's will. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I hope, by "studying the Bible for themselves", you don't mean actually sitting and studying and asking God to fill you with Revelation, because that is not my experience, and doing so, never brings one to truth.
Without help, and guidance, from God's people - the witnesses of Jesus Acts 8:26-31, we come to our own faulty conclusions.
I had lots of guidance, and yes, I did what the Beroeans did.

Now these, who were more noble than those in Thessalonica, received the word with all readiness, on every day examining the Scriptures, whether these things were so.
Acts 17:11
​

Without the help of Jesus followers, we are lost.
We can be close, and that's a good thing, because we are not far off, from the kingdom Mark 12:34, but we need to make sure we get the correct, or accurate knowledge of truth, since this is God's will. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4

Yes, I agree there are people who are grounded in God’s Truth and can help us come out of our false doctrine handed down thru the centuries, but like those in Thessalonic we should not automatically assume a pastor, priest, friend, relative or whoever is teachings God’s Word is true, we need to prayerfully examine the scriptures for ourselves to know whether these things are so.

Anyway, aside from what my church believes, I have not met too many other people who view death the same way, it’s refreshing and I think there is a huge deception out there and will become more problematic in the future with spiritualism.

 

[CoreyD]

I read most of it, but admit to not reading all of it, I was not seeing thing in the order in how I understand scripture in the sequence of end times.

I will go back and read your post and read the verses and try to respond in a better manner. Thanks for the opportunity. It may be a couple days.

No problem. Take your time.
However, let's not get into the practice of talking past each other, as most are in the custom of doing.
It does not show honesty and sincerity for the truth.

Looking forward to a further conversation, where scripture is the primary focus, rather than our feelings, and what we want to believe.
Have a nice day.

 

[CoreyD]

How has the "immortal soul doctrine" corrupted church doctrine? That understanding only serves to undergird God's justice, that, being all wise and all good, the existence He gives us is inherently good in itself with no need or intention to be retracted or taken back away. If we abuse that gift, if we choose to persistently remain in sin and selfishness and pride and opposition to God IOW, then there are likewise eternal consequences-that of being permanently excused from His presence. That's only a good thing for us to know.

Again, no scripture.
When you are ready for a scriptural conversation, let me know.
We can talk then... perhaps.

 

[fhansen]

Again, no scripture.
When you are ready for a scriptural conversation, let me know.
We can talk then... perhaps.

Apparently you have no answer for how and why the immortal soul doctrine should be capable of corrupting church doctrine.

 

[CoreyD]

The donkey didn't receive revelation. . .God used his vocal chords to speak (Nu 22:28), like I use my puppy's paw to wave.

You are right Clare.
However, you missed the point @Aaron112 is making.
He is saying that even a "dumb" animal can be used by God, to convey truths, more so than the billions of intelligent beings walking around on this planet, claiming revelation from God.
At least I think that's the point he is making.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No problem. Take your time.
However, let's not get into the practice of talking past each other, as most are in the custom of doing.
It does not show honesty and sincerity for the truth.

Looking forward to a further conversation, where scripture is the primary focus, rather than our feelings, and what we want to believe.
Have a nice day.

I don’t think it was a matter of feelings, we agree on some things, we don’t on others based on our understanding of scripture. You threw a lot at me, I did not go through each point, but like I said I will go through each section because it does seem you are open to reasoning, so I agree, let’s reason with one another and not talk past each other and my apologies for not spending the time looking at each verse. I promise to do so when I reply again.

 

[CoreyD]

Apparently you have no answer for how and why the immortal soul doctrine should be capable of corrupting church doctrine.

You know that's not true.
However, if you are asking, rather than telling, that's a different story.
Are you asking? Would you like to know?

The soul dies, according to the Bible. Ezekiel 18:4
According to the churches, no, the soul does not die, as Satan would have us believe - Genesis 3:4, and they built on that by claiming that the soul will be tormented in an eternal fiery... Or, in some religions, be eternally separated from God - thus being alive in eternal darkness.
There are other beliefs surrounding the immortal soul doctrine, but I don't think you are asking about that.