The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Jeff Saunders]

Incorrect! I don't just say they are false I show how they are. Again, incorrect you in fact do choose a translation simply because the translator(s) share your beliefs, and it fits your assumptions and presuppositions. As I have stated The JPS was translated by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars and the EOB was translated by native Greek speaking scholars. My independent study of olam and ad and aionios and aion is supported by the JPS and EOB. Studies which OBTW has never been disproven.
Here is a sample from each study feel free to prove me wrong.
Ecclesiastes 3:14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [olam/עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Isaiah 51:6
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be forever, [עולם] and My favour shall not be abolished.
John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.[/indent]
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In this verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.,” By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

Like I have said before- those who don’t understand the ages and how God works in ages can’t understand these things . So let’s put away the cup of milk and get out a plate and fork and knife and get to work on some steaks. God works in aion (ages) each age has its own set of “ rules that are followed “ , from Adam till Noah - from Noah to Abraham and Moses - Moses till Jesus - from Jesus first arriving in human form till his second coming- then the millennium, then the age to come. Each age had /has its own set of ways for man to do what God wanted from them . That’s why we no longer sacrifice animals that was part of the age of Law , we are under the age of Grace, that is the age we are currently in and much of the New Testament is about how we are to act towards God in this age . Those who don’t understand the ages are prone to misread scripture and not have a good understanding of what Gods plan is. So in Ecc 3:14 if one believes Olam is eternal then why are we not sacrificing animals and not eating bacon? Because that was part of the age of Law which is over now , not eternal. As for Isaiah 51:6 that is a prophecy about Jesus that’s why the world for salvation in the verse is where we get Jesus our salvation, now the Olam is talking about Jesus and we know from scripture that Jesus has no end so it can mean never ending. Now the New Testament verses- to understand them we need to look to other scripture first- John 5:24 says “… who ever hears my words and believes Him who sent me, he has life in the age and will not come under judgment, indeed he HAS ( not latter but now) crossed over from death to life” also 1John 3:14 “ We know that we HAVE passed from death to life” if you bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord you pass over from death to life in this age- that’s the life of the age , now on earth in our mortal body , it’s not about the next age but this one. So with this understanding one should read John 10:28 I give them life of the age( this age ) and they shall in the age( this age) not perish, no one will snatch them out of my hand. Also in John 3:16 it’s life in this age not talking about the next. Look at Matt 14:7 narrow is the gate and close-cramped the path leading away to life - those who find it are few. That’s talking about life of the age this age now not some future age. It is also true that if you have life in this age you will also have it in the next. This is how many in the early church saw how to read scripture and I follow that tradition because I feel it’s the closest way to understanding Gods heart. God doesn’t make people just to torture them forever that’s what pagan gods do.

 

[Der Alte]

***
Unlimited atonement for people, 2 Cor. 5:19 ***

That vs. "in context"

2 Corinthians 5:14-21​

(14) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:​

(15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.​

Christ did die for all but all are not living for Christ but living unto themselves.

(16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.​

"we have known Christ" i.e. we Christians NOT all mankind.

(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Only "if any man be in Christ." All mankind is NOT in Christ and are NOT a new creature: old things are not passed away;

(18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;​

"He has reconciled us" Christians NOT all mankind. People who are committing sins right now are NOT reconciled to God.

(19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.​

In the process of "reconciling the world unto himself," NOT past tense, "reconciled the whole world." Those who continue in sin God most certainly is "imputing their trespasses unto them."

(20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​

If all mankind has been reconciled to God as you interpret vs. 18, why is Paul now vs. 20 saying "we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God?"

(21) For he [God] hath made him [Jesus] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be [not will be] made the righteousness of God in him.​

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The enemy of Jesus offers anything/ incentives/ "don't worry about your sin" / "feelings" / and more beyond measuring
to get lost souls to believe in ur so that they don't seek Jesus Himself to be healed or forgiven.

The enemy of Jesus worldwide has billions of followers, both willing and unwitting, so there is no shortage of those enemies of Jesus to promote ur.

So if you believe that God loves his creation and has a plan to redeem all of his creation, which is supported by many scriptures, you are an enemy of Jesus? The main difference our tradition has that is different is we know that God/Jesus doesn’t do abandonment of his kids that’s a human thing not a God thing . So if you believe that Jesus doesn’t stop till all the sheep are found, you are his enemy? If you believe that God is not a do as I say and not as I do God we are his enemies? Does not God call on us to love our enemies and pray for them and if we find them hungry to feed them or cloth the ect. Or are we to torture our enemies and kill them , like has been done all too often in the church in Gods name, because that what God is going to do to his enemies. If believing that Gods infinite love is more powerful than man’s will and sin , and believing that Jesus death is greater than Adams sin , and believing that where sin increases Grace increases even more and is more powerful than sin . If this makes me an enemy of Jesus, I think that those who believe that have a very small Jesus and I will stick with mine.

 

[Der Alte]

Like I have said before- those who don’t understand the ages and how God works in ages can’t understand these things . So let’s put away the cup of milk[insulting] and get out a plate and fork and knife and get to work on some steaks. God works in aion (ages) each age has its own set of “ rules that are followed “ , from Adam till Noah - from Noah to Abraham and Moses - Moses till Jesus - from Jesus first arriving in human form till his second coming- then the millennium, then the age to come. Each age had /has its own set of ways for man to do what God wanted from them . That’s why we no longer sacrifice animals that was part of the age of Law , we are under the age of Grace, that is the age we are currently in and much of the New Testament is about how we are to act towards God in this age . Those who don’t understand the ages are prone to misread scripture and not have a good understanding of what Gods plan is.

Repeating all this verbiage about ages does not make it true. Show me some specific scripture about "each age has its own set of rules that are followed etc“ I won't hold my breath.

So in Ecc 3:14 if one believes Olam is eternal then why are we not sacrificing animals and not eating bacon? Because that was part of the age of Law which is over now , not eternal.

Unsupported opinion. Please read and address my post on "Olam"

As for Isaiah 51:6 that is a prophecy about Jesus that’s why the world for salvation in the verse is where we get Jesus our salvation, now the Olam is talking about Jesus and we know from scripture that Jesus has no end so it can mean never ending.

I'm supposed to respond to everything you post but you have not addressed either of my posts on "Olam" and "aionios."

Now the New Testament verses- to understand them we need to look to other scripture first- John 5:24 says “… who ever hears my words and believes Him who sent me, he has life in the age and will not come under judgment, indeed he HAS ( not latter but now) crossed over from death to life” also 1John 3:14 “ We know that we HAVE passed from death to life” if you bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord you pass over from death to life in this age- that’s the life of the age , now on earth in our mortal body , it’s not about the next age but this one. So with this understanding one should read John 10:28 I give them life of the age( this age ) and they shall in the age( this age) not perish, no one will snatch them out of my hand. Also in John 3:16 it’s life in this age not talking about the next. Look at Matt 14:7 narrow is the gate and close-cramped the path leading away to life - those who find it are few. That’s talking about life of the age this age now not some future age. It is also true that if you have life in each age has its own set of “ rules that are followed “you will also have it in the next. This is how many in the early church saw how to read scripture and I follow that tradition because I feel it’s the closest way to understanding Gods heart. God doesn’t make people just to torture them forever that’s what pagan gods do.

Totally incorrect! Desperately trying to make scripture say what you want it to. Aionios is an adjective NOT a noun. It can NEVER be translated "age.""of the age""pertaining to the age" etc.

 

[Der Alte]

So if you believe that God loves his creation and has a plan to redeem all of his creation, which is supported by many scriptures, you are an enemy of Jesus? The main difference our tradition has that is different is we know that God/Jesus doesn’t do abandonment of his kids that’s a human thing not a God thing . So if you believe that Jesus doesn’t stop till all the sheep are found, you are his enemy? If you believe that God is not a do as I say and not as I do God we are his enemies? Does not God call on us to love our enemies and pray for them and if we find them hungry to feed them or cloth the ect. Or are we to torture our enemies and kill them , like has been done all too often in the church in Gods name, because that what God is going to do to his enemies. If believing that Gods infinite love is more powerful than man’s will and sin , and believing that Jesus death is greater than Adams sin , and believing that where sin increases Grace increases even more and is more powerful than sin . If this makes me an enemy of Jesus, I think that those who believe that have a very small Jesus and I will stick with mine.

I believe that God loves His creation and has a plan to redeem all creation but,

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; [YHWH] that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD [YHWH] God [El] of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, [YHWH] Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD:[YHWH] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

I have yet to find a verse where God says "I will have pity, will spare, will have mercy, and will not destroy them."

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I believe that God loves His creation and has a plan to redeem all creation but,

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; [YHWH] that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD [YHWH] God [El] of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, [YHWH] Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD:[YHWH] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

I have yet to find a verse where God says "I will have pity, will spare, will have mercy, and will not destroy them."

Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord will not reject us forever, though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal kindness, for he is not predisposed to afflict or to grieve people. Deut4:32 For the Lord your God is a compassionate God , he will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which he swore to them. 2Sam 14:14 But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished. Zech 13:9 I will put them into fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold, they will call on my name and I will answer them. I will say they are my people and they will say the Lord is our God. Jeremiah 9:7 Therefore the Lord who rules over all says, I will now purify them in the fires of my affection and test them. The wickedness of my dear people has left me no choice, what else can I do . I think these verses show Gods heart.

 

[Der Alte]

Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord will not reject us forever, though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal kindness, for he is not predisposed to afflict or to grieve people. Deut4:32 For the Lord your God is a compassionate God , he will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which he swore to them. 2Sam 14:14 But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished. Zech 13:9 I will put them into fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold, they will call on my name and I will answer them. I will say they are my people and they will say the Lord is our God. Jeremiah 9:7 Therefore the Lord who rules over all says, I will now purify them in the fires of my affection and test them. The wickedness of my dear people has left me no choice, what else can I do . I think these verses show Gods heart.

One can "prove" almost anything by quoting selective scripture out-of-context as is being done here. Lam 3:31-33. See e.g.

Lamentations 5:20-22​

(20) Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?​

(21) Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.​

(22) But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.​

And Jeremiah 9:7 let us not forget Jeremiah 13:11-14

JPS Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

One can "prove" almost anything by quoting selective scripture out-of-context as is being done here. Lam 3:31-33. See e.g.

Lamentations 5:20-22​

(20) Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?​

(21) Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.​

(22) But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.​

And Jeremiah 9:7 let us not forget Jeremiah 13:11-14

JPS Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

This is exactly what I expected, any scripture that doesn’t fit there is always an excuse. But that’s ok often I write for others who read but don’t respond, I have noticed many of the posts are read by people who don’t respond but are trying to understand the arguments and they can see both sides and decide what they think. Many scriptures seem to be in tension with others and your view of God will determine which ones “ Trump” others . It’s been going on for over 2000 years and will continue till the next age then all will know the truth.

 

[Der Alte]

This is exactly what I expected, any scripture that doesn’t fit there is always an excuse. But that’s ok often I write for others who read but don’t respond, I have noticed many of the posts are read by people who don’t respond but are trying to understand the arguments and they can see both sides and decide what they think. Many scriptures seem to be in tension with others and your view of God will determine which ones “ Trump” others . It’s been going on for over 2000 years and will continue till the next age then all will know the truth.

I was not the one who quoted selective scriptures out-of-context. But that happens to be one of the first things I look for. Feel free to call me out if you ever see me quoting out-of-context. I would say it ain't so much about verses trumping other verses but reading "in context." "Context" does not refer only to verses in close proximity to each other but all of scripture.
I will use Jeremiah 13:11 as an example.

Jer 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

This vs. might seem to say that since God said He "caused it" the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah would definitely be, no ifs ands or buts unto God for a people, for a name, for a praise, and for a glory;. There is however a "but", "But they would not hearken." And there is a stated penalty for that. I didn't make it up.

 

[Aaron112]

No Other Gospel
…8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse! 10Am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.…
Berean Standard Bible · Download
ur is a false gospel - anathema! accursed!

 

[Der Alte]

No Other Gospel
…8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse! 10Am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.…
Berean Standard Bible · Download
ur is a false gospel - anathema! accursed!

Correct and here is an O.T. and a N.T. passage which clearly states that.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean someday by and by.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I was not the one who quoted selective scriptures out-of-context.

Telling someone their Scripture selection is out of context means absolutely nothing unless you are willing to point out just how the Scripture was pulled out of its context. So … please share where Jeff did error in using those Scriptures?

But that happens to be one of the first things I look for. Feel free to call me out if you ever see me quoting out-of-context.

Ok. If you insist. You frequently quote the Jeremiah 13 passage when attempting to counter the argument of all mankind being reconciled to God. True? Yet, just a cursory reading of stated passage, along with the chapter in its entirety and I find ZERO reference to ”That great day of the Lord“ or “Judgement Day” or anything that even remotely suggests this is in reference to the afterlife. Also, I see no use of Olam speaking to the “eternal” weight carried by the passage you claim to refute UR. There are plenty of passages (see below for a couple examples) that DO speak of the afterlife, but your often quoted passage is most definitely NOT one.

”The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.“
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2‬:‭31‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

bible.com

”And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.“
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

bible.com

No my brother, there is nothing in this passage that warrants you using it in the manner in which you do; actually, what you are doing is something known as:

“Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.” This is the method of interpretation which you have employed surrounding the text you so often quote. If I am wrong, then please exegete the passage as a biblical scholar. Then demonstrate how your findings correlate to your view of Scripture “in context.”

I would say it ain't so much about verses trumping other verses but reading "in context." "Context" does not refer only to verses in close proximity to each other but all of scripture.

Agreed my friend … BUT, one should ALWAYS start with the Scripture as it is being used in its historical context, being written to the people of that time and all the ramifications that go along with that authors intent. Then … carefully applying your interpretation to your overall view and understanding of Scripture as it applies to the subject matter at hand. That method of interpretation would be referred to as exegesis. You have taken this passage out of its immediate context, imposed the limitations of your own theological paradigm, which does not even support your view of eternal punishment. Then you call out Jeff?

I will use Jeremiah 13:11 as an example.

Jer 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

This vs. might seem to say that since God said He "caused it" the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah would definitely be, no ifs ands or buts unto God for a people, for a name, for a praise, and for a glory;. There is however a "but", "But they would not hearken." And there is a stated penalty for that. I didn't make it up.

This passage speaks of the temporal punishment of the house of Judah and Jerusalem. Nothing new here concerning the Lord chastising His people in order to bring them back into enjoying the covenant blessing of being His chosen people. Which they are … There is always a purpose to the Lord’s chastisement my friend.

blessings

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I was not the one who quoted selective scriptures out-of-context. But that happens to be one of the first things I look for. Feel free to call me out if you ever see me quoting out-of-context. I would say it ain't so much about verses trumping other verses but reading "in context." "Context" does not refer only to verses in close proximity to each other but all of scripture.
I will use Jeremiah 13:11 as an example.

Jer 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

This vs. might seem to say that since God said He "caused it" the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah would definitely be, no ifs ands or buts unto God for a people, for a name, for a praise, and for a glory;. There is however a "but", "But they would not hearken." And there is a stated penalty for that. I didn't make it up.

Then why would Paul say all Israel would be saved? Maybe he understands the big picture.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No Other Gospel
…8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse! 10Am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.…
Berean Standard Bible · Download
ur is a false gospel - anathema! accursed!

Yes that is exactly what I have been saying, those who believe in ECT preach another gospel.

 

[Der Alte]

Telling someone their Scripture selection is out of context means absolutely nothing unless you are willing to point out just how the Scripture was pulled out of its context. So … please share where Jeff did error in using those Scriptures?

The verses which you quoted in most recent posts. I quoted other vss. from the same books which refute UR.

Ok. If you insist. You frequently quote the Jeremiah 13 passage when attempting to counter the argument of all mankind being reconciled to God. True? Yet, just a cursory reading of stated passage, along with the chapter in its entirety and I find ZERO reference to ”That great day of the Lord“ or “Judgement Day” or anything that even remotely suggests this is in reference to the afterlife. Also, I see no use of Olam speaking to the “eternal” weight carried by the passage you claim to refute UR. There are plenty of passages (see below for a couple examples) that DO speak of the afterlife, but your often quoted passage is most definitely NOT one.

In Jeremiah 13 which I quoted did you happen by chance to actually read Jer 13:14

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

I cant find any vs./vss. in Jeremiah or any other book where God changes His mind and has pity on the houses of Israel and Judah, decides to spare them and reverses the destruction of those who disobeyed.

”The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.“
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2‬:‭31‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

bible.com

”And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.“
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

bible.com

What is your opinion of what does "shame and everlasting [olam] contempt.“ mean?

No my brother, there is nothing in this passage that warrants you using it in the manner in which you do; actually, what you are doing is something known as:

Are you referring to Jeremiah 13 11-14? Nothing you have said shows that I quoted out-of-context or misrepresented the passage in any way.

“Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.” This is the method of interpretation which you have employed surrounding the text you so often quote. If I am wrong, then please exegete the passage as a biblical scholar. Then demonstrate how your findings correlate to your view of Scripture “in context.”

You haven't even come close to showing anything I have ever posted was eisegesis. Perhaps you can demonstrate to me how that or any other passage I have posted should be "correctly" quoted.

Agreed my friend … BUT, one should ALWAYS start with the Scripture as it is being used in its historical context, being written to the people of that time and all the ramifications that go along with that authors intent. Then … carefully applying your interpretation to your overall view and understanding of Scripture as it applies to the subject matter at hand. That method of interpretation would be referred to as exegesis. You have taken this passage out of its immediate context, imposed the limitations of your own theological paradigm, which does not even support your view of eternal punishment. Then you call out Jeff?

Nonsense!

This passage speaks of the temporal punishment of the house of Judah and Jerusalem. Nothing new here concerning the Lord chastising His people in order to bring them back into enjoying the covenant blessing of being His chosen people. Which they are … There is always a purpose to the Lord’s chastisement my friend.

blessings

If you are referring to Jeremiah 13:11-14 please explain to my how "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them." equates to UR?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

One can "prove" almost anything by quoting selective scripture out-of-context as is being done here. Lam 3:31-33. See e.g.

Lamentations 5:20-22​

(20) Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?​

(21) Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.​

(22) But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.​

And Jeremiah 9:7 let us not forget Jeremiah 13:11-14

JPS Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

What is the context of Paul saying in Gal 3:13 “ cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree “ not taken out of context when he quotes Deut 21:22-23 ? Because Duet 21:22-23 doesn’t seem to be talking about Jesus but Paul quotes it that way. Did Paul quote something out of context? It sure looks like by your definition of out of context.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The verses which you quoted in most recent posts. I quoted other vss. from the same books which refute UR.

In Jeremiah 13 which I quoted did you happen by chance to actually read Jer 13:14

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

I cant find any vs./vss. in Jeremiah or any other book where God changes His mind and has pity on the houses of Israel and Judah, decides to spare them and reverses the destruction of those who disobeyed.

What is your opinion of what does "shame and everlasting [olam] contempt.“ mean?

Are you referring to Jeremiah 13 11-14? Nothing you have said shows that I quoted out-of-context or misrepresented the passage in any way.

You haven't even come close to showing anything I have ever posted was eisegesis. Perhaps you can demonstrate to me how that or any other passage I have posted should be "correctly" quoted.

Nonsense!

If you are referring to Jeremiah 13:11-14 please explain to my how "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them." equates to UR?

Your entire post is typical of how you deal with being confronted with your own inadequacy of Scriptural interpretation. You simply ignore, deflect and ask questions to redirect away from your inability to answer questions asked of you. No worries … all who care to read the discussion can see through your shenanigans. Carry on my friend …

blessings

 

[Der Alte]

What is the context of Paul saying in Gal 3:13 “ cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree “ not taken out of context when he quotes Deut 21:22-23 ? Because Duet 21:22-23 doesn’t seem to be talking about Jesus but Paul quotes it that way. Did Paul quote something out of context? It sure looks like by your definition of out of context.

This is the silliest question I have ever read here. Deut 21:22-23 was very applicable. Simple, Paul's culture was not the same as ours. Anyone who was hanged on a tree was considered to be cursed. It might help if you actually read scripture you are quoting.

 

[Aaron112]

Nonsense!

yes, Necessarily all and any fully or partly false gospel is

not only nonsense, but dangerous and destructive to lives and souls

as they offer anti-Christ advice, information they use is instead of truth, instead of Christ, instead of being in true harmony with all Scripture , ur advocates are blasphemous opponents of Jesus and of Scripture.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

This is the silliest question I have ever read here. Deut 21:22-23 was very applicable. Simple, Paul's culture was not the same as ours. Anyone who was hanged on a tree was considered to be cursed. It might help if you actually read scripture you are quoting.

I don’t get it Deut 21:22-23 “ If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and is put to death and hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day ( for he who is hanged is accused of God) , so that you do not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.” I do not see how Jesus hanging on the cross has any context in Duet but Paul quotes it about Jesus. Tell me in your opinion how is Paul not taking this out of context by your definition.