It is both. . .but babies have no sin of their own to count against them, however, they have Adam's sin counted against them, which guilt of for all is removed only by faith in Jesus Christ.
You're implying that babies and young children who die premature deaths, who have no opportunity to gain knowledge of Jesus or the gospel to believe in Him will certainly be condemned, because the guilt of Adam is placed on them. So do dead infants go to hell?
It's not about "nature," it's about incurrence.
There is no sin where there is no law (Ro 5:13).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died of sin.
What sin did they incur which caused their deaths?
You're not explaining anything beyond your mere assertions which I am objecting to. I disagree with your additional assertions here. No, the principle of sin is inherited from Adam, not his guilt. That the principle of sin is inherited (called "sinful nature") is shown in Rom. 7:17, and the fact that it is embedded in the nature of man is shown in Eph. 2:3. If you disagree, then show how.
Like I said before, I believe your interpretation of this verse is wrong for these reasons:
1. If sin is not imputed before Moses, then not even the sin of Adam was imputed.
2. And if the sin of Adam was not imputed before Moses, then what was God's reason for imputing Adam's sin after Moses? Did God decide, "since I give you the law of Moses, now I will impute Adam's sin to mankind"? Ludicrous!
3. Your statement "there is no sin where there is no law" is obviously a false statement since Paul says "until the Law, sin was in the world." Therefore, there was sin before the law.
4. Certain scriptures like Ezek. 18:20 contradicts the idea that Adam's sin is imputed to mankind. Ps. 32:2 says "blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity" which implies that only the sin committed by that individual is imputed sin, and is not imputed the sin of someone else, namely Adam's sin.
5. Physical death is incurred on people because they are mortal, having no access to the tree of life. It is not because Adam's sin is imputed. Children do not incur the guilt of their ancestors' sins according to Ezek. 18. If you claim that the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to everyone, you are contradicting scripture. Therefore, your idea "they all died of sin" is incorrect or at least ambiguous. Mankind has inherited the consequence of Adam's sin, which is the sinful nature, but not the guilt of Adam's sin. People incur the guilt of their own sin they commit, not the guilt of another. When Paul wrote "God has shut up all under sin, that He might have mercy on all," he was talking about the sinful nature, which is the consequence of original sin, not the guilt of it.
6. Not only was there sin before Moses, but there was also the guilt of sin for those committing it. We know this by the fact that Cain was punished, as well as Sodom & Gomorrah, as well as the whole world in the flood, including Ham and others. Therefore, Paul's statement "sin is not imputed when there is no law" is simply a hypothetical "best case" scenario to contrast the point "death reigned from Adam to Moses." He was not saying that sins people committed did not incur guilt during that time. But if you claim that guilt was not imputed to them because there was "no law" (as you asserted), then neither was Adam's sin imputed.
They incurred the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:12-14, 17)--which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness, which imputed righteousness is contrastingly paralleled with Adam's imputed sin in Ro 5:18-19. . ."just as (Adam). . .so also (Christ)."
Do you think that imputing the sin of Adam is symmetrical with imputing the righteousness of Christ? If so, then I disagree with you. The comparison of this verse does not demand the assumption that imputation is symmetrical. No, according to various scriptures I cited already, only sin that an individual commits is imputed to that individual. Unregenerate people commit sin because they inherited a sinful nature, not because Adam's sin is imputed. Therefore, people are culpable for their own sin, not Adam's. But the contrast is that righteousness is imputed to those in Christ.
"By the sin of Adam, death reigned;" i.e., reigned over all men, through Adam's sin which was imputed to all those of Adam, (Ro 5:12-14, 17) which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).
You are not dealing with the sinful Adam being a pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteous Christ. . . pattern of what?
Death reigned because the wages of sins committed is death. It's because the sinful nature is inherited, not the guilt of Adam. The consequence of Adam's sin is not the same thing as the sin, nor the guilt of the sin.
Adam was the type of Christ, because he was the head of all mankind, and Christ is the head of all God's children. Death spread to all men because they inherited Adam's sin nature which he incurred at his fall. It does not mean his sin, or the guilt of it, was imputed. So everyone born is automatically "in Adam" because they are born natural and unregenerate. It doesn't mean Adam's guilt was imputed to them. There is a difference between: being subject to a condition of spirit (having a sinful nature), and having a guilt imputed to you that you don't deserve.
You assume things that aren't true, which tells me that you are reading an idea into scripture that doesn't belong. You continue to make the same assertions, and when I explain my objections you just keep repeating your assertions while evading my questions.
No. . .it means Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind (Ro 5:17, 18, 19). death reigned through his sin imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19).
The sinful nature does not cause our death, sin causes our death--both Adam's imputed sin (Ro 5:17, 18-19) and our own incurred sin.
The imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ in Ro 5:18-19--"just as (Adam). . .so also (Christ)."
---> Correct. . .but where there is no law there is no sin (Ro 5:13),
there was no law between Adam and Moses, so there was no sin charged against anyone,
yet they all died. . .
Of what sin did they die?
This is what you are not dealing with and which demonstrates Ro 5:17, the imputation of Adam's sin to all men, which caused their deaths when here was no law to sin against.
Again, you assume that people die (physically) of sin. I think you have a general confusion between physical and spiritual death. Infants can die because they are mortal, not because Adam's sin is imputed.
The "pattern" between Christ and Adam has to do with the condition of spirit. It's not about imputation. God does not have to impute Adam's sin to people (namely infants) for death to be incurred, since they are mortal by nature. But the pattern has a marked difference you haven't acknowledged - that Adam's being head of mankind has to do with the natural state of man (spiritually dead), whereas Christ being head of all believers has to do with their spiritual state and condition (spiritually alive and righteous). As in Hebrews, the pattern or type always has the difference of physical vs. spiritual. The type is physical, and the antitype is spiritual.
I did deal with that, but you're not dealing with my answer. Again - people die because of their mortal condition, not because Adam's sin is imputed (or his guilt). People inheriting the sinful nature is a condition of consequence, not an imputation.
Yes, the sin that was in the world was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:12-14, 17) which he is about to demonstrate caused the deaths of all those between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, no personal sin was charged against them to cause their deaths.
So what sin caused the deaths between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, they did not sin?
That is what Paul is demonstrating.
The sin which caused their deaths when there was no law to sin against was the imputed sin of Adam, as summarized in Ro 5:17, and then paralleled with the imputation of Christs righteousness in Ro 5:18-19.
"The sin that was in the world was the
imputed sin of Adam"? Ludicrous! Paul is talking about sins committed by the people. You are really grasping at straws here. I already proved from scripture that there was law before Moses and the punishments thereof. I think you can't deal with that because of your error.
You keep asking this same question repeatedly, which I have already answered numerous times. Read what I wrote.
No, the context of Ro 5:12-14 is not Ac 17:30. The context is clearly stated as the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against (Ro 5:14).
The point of Ro 5:12-14 is stated in Ro 5:17., the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam, which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).
I emphatically do not agree. . .it is more than clear that Paul is speaking of physical death caused by sin in Ro 5:12-14.
Absolutely not. . .feel free to Biblically demonstrate your assertion.
I already demonstrated this, read what I wrote.
It is "ambiguous and loaded" to you because you do not understand Ro 5:12-14 regarding the imputed sin of Adam presented in Ro 5:17 and then paralleled with Christ's imputed righteousness in Ro 5:18-19.
No, it's because you confuse the physical with the spiritual, as you confuse sin with the consequences thereof, and because you don't believe scriptures like Ezek. 18.
Rather, it is precisely the question posed by the text, as demonstrated in my fifth response above, which answer is clear in Ro 5:17.
No, it's not. I've already explained that Rom. 5:17 is referring to the sinful nature which causes people to sin, thus incurring spiritual death. This is what Paul is talking about.
Do you understand Ro 5:17, death reigning through one man?
Do infants die? All human death comes from him; i.e., his sin imputed/accounted to every human.
Again, physical death is due to mortality, not imputation. Spiritual death is a condition, not an imputation.
Do you understand Ro 5:18--"the result of one trespass was condemnation for many"?
Adam's one trespass is our condemnation by imputation, paralleled with "Christ's one act of righteousness as our justification by imputation.
Condemnation from the condition of a sinful nature, not from an imputation. It's a contrast, not a parallel, and it's not symmetrical. Peoples' sin is imputed to them if they are not in Christ. Adam's guilt is not imputed; if you claim it is, then you are claiming that infants go to hell, because they simply cannot believe the gospel they have never heard nor understand. It appears to me you refuse to deal with that.
Do you understand Ro 5:19--"through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners?
The one man''s disobedience made us sinners by imputation, paralleled with the one man's obedience making us righteous by imputation.
No more than me meeting anyone in heaven implies that Adam's sin was not imputed to me.
The many were MADE sinners because they inherited the nature of it from Adam (not because sin was imputed). Again, it's about condition of spirit, not about imputation. They were made sinners because the sinful nature made them sinners, according to Rom. 7:17.
In Christ many are MADE righteous - so in order for someone to be MADE righteous, they must first have righteousness IMPUTED to them, so that the Holy Spirit can enter into them to dwell and MAKE them righteous.
Do we part ways at this point?
