No rapture.

[Iseetrees1980]

I believe rapture to be a dangerous theology that's happened today.
The doctrine muddies understanding of when Christ returns.

When Christ made it very clear He returns only after, The Tribulation of a false Christ.
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV.

1 Thessalians 4 is often taken out of its subject of life after death.
The return is not specifically detailed in the chapter. Paul does mentions the return only to conclude the subject that all believers in The Jesus Christ will reunite with their loved ones: Whether through the course of time by the natural process of dying of the body.
Or at the second advent, when only spiritual bodies remain on Earth at The True Lord Jesus Christ's return at the 7th Trump which is the last. Only After, the 6th has concluded.
Seems many then as today, are mistaken about the events leading up to The Lord return.
Unfamiliar with order of events outlined in The Word of God The Bible.
The rapture exacerbates this lack of Bible knowledge.

If 1st Thessalians 4 was not clear enough. Paul followed with the introduction of a new subject The return in 2nd Thessalian 2. Where he makes it very plainly clear there'll be no return of The True Lord Jesus Christ, not until after Satan (the son of perdition) arrives first. This follows all of The Bibles teachings.
The danger with the rapture is, it sets Christians up, to worship the first one that arrives only claiming, to be Jesus. Its Satan instead of Him.

 

[JulieB67]

The return is not specifically detailed in the chapter. Paul does mentions the return only to conclude the subject that all believers in The Jesus Christ will reunite with their loved ones:

That's what I try and get across as well. It's not even the original subject which started at verse 13. Paul was only trying to comfort them about their loved ones. And that Christ would be bringing those with him when he returned. He was not teaching about a pretrib rapture.

If 1st Thessalians 4 was not clear enough. Paul followed with the introduction of a new subject The return in 2nd Thessalian 2. Where he makes it very plainly clear there'll be no return of The True Lord Jesus Christ, not until after Satan (the son of perdition) arrives first. This follows all of The Bibles teachings.

Exactly!

 

[Clare73]

I believe rapture to be a dangerous theology that's happened today.

The apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) is a dangerous theology?

Are you serious?

The doctrine muddies understanding of when Christ returns.

Does the apostolic teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16) muddle it, or does your theology muddle it?
My money is on the latter.

The doctrine couldn't be any clearer in the authoritative apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16),
as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8); i.e.,

first, the Lord himself will come down from heaven,

second, the dead will rise,

third, the remaining living, along with the risen believers, will be caught up ("raptured") to meet the Lord in the air.

When Christ made it very clear He returns only after, The Tribulation of a false Christ.
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV.

Christ (Mt 24:29-30) and Paul (1 Th 4:16-17) speaking for Christ (Lk 10:16) do not disagree, but are in complete agreement.

1 Thessalians 4 is often taken out of its subject of life after death.

Which "life after death" in vv. 16-17 starts with the
1) second coming,
2) resurrection and
3) rapture,
to be with the Lord forever, including assisting him in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

The return is not specifically detailed in the chapter.

It couldn't be more plain than the authoritative apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16), as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8)

Paul does mentions the return only to conclude

Your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8) is disagreement with the plain apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16), above.

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe rapture to be a dangerous theology that's happened today.
The doctrine muddies understanding of when Christ returns.

When Christ made it very clear He returns only after, The Tribulation of a false Christ.
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV.

1 Thessalians 4 is often taken out of its subject of life after death.
The return is not specifically detailed in the chapter. Paul does mentions the return only to conclude the subject that all believers in The Jesus Christ will reunite with their loved ones: Whether through the course of time by the natural process of dying of the body.
Or at the second advent, when only spiritual bodies remain on Earth at The True Lord Jesus Christ's return at the 7th Trump which is the last. Only After, the 6th has concluded.
Seems many then as today, are mistaken about the events leading up to The Lord return.
Unfamiliar with order of events outlined in The Word of God The Bible.
The rapture exacerbates this lack of Bible knowledge.

If 1st Thessalians 4 was not clear enough. Paul followed with the introduction of a new subject The return in 2nd Thessalian 2. Where he makes it very plainly clear there'll be no return of The True Lord Jesus Christ, not until after Satan (the son of perdition) arrives first. This follows all of The Bibles teachings.
The danger with the rapture is, it sets Christians up, to worship the first one that arrives only claiming, to be Jesus. Its Satan instead of Him.

There is a rapture, it's just not pretrib.

The resurrection (which happens shortly before the rapture) happens after a time of tribulation, but before the wrath of God.

Isaiah 26

16 Lord, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

So a time of trouble and persecution, tribulation.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Then the resurrection

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Then a gathering of the resurrected and still living saints to hide from the indignation (the wrath of God)

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The Lord comes from heaven to unleash His wrath on the inhabitants of the Earth (the Trumpets and Bowls in Revelation)

Zechariah 9

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

a time of trouble/war/persecution, that is tribulation

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

The Lord comes down from heaven, with the trump of God, and notice it's the Lord God that blows the trumpet, not an angel. the 7th trumpet is blown by an angel, not Jesus/the Lord God

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

The people are rescued and set as stones in a crown, or as an ensign (banner) over the land, in other words they're lifted into the sky This is the passage that Jesus and Paul refer to in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 respectively.
Also note that the Lord goes south, not to Armageddon, but goes south, In Isaiah 34 He goes to Idumea (Edom)< and in Isaiah 63, He is coming BACK from Edom, covered in blood as He appears in Revelation 19, and He was alone during it.

Isaiah 34

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

So in essence when Jesus returns to Earth, the dead are raised imperishable, and the living are changed into glorified bodies, they go into the sky, and Jesus goes to Earth alone, and begins a campaign in Idumea treading the winepress of the wrath of God alone. No people with Him during this time.

Revelation 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

So, the saints are in heaven, while the wrath of God is being poured out. The saints were persecuted by Babylon and the Beast (tribulation), but during the wrath of God, they're in heaven.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

If you go back to Revelation 5-7 they not only worship God on the throne, they also worship the Lamb, 2 persons. God the Father, and God the Son (Jesus). Here they only worship God the Father, not Jesus, He is not there. He is on Earth.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

They talk about a wedding supper of the Lamb, but it doesn't happen here. Why not? Because the Bridegroom is on Earth and the Wedding Supper is being prepared there.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Everyone thinks this is John on Earth looking up and seeing the heavens opened and seeing Jesus coming down on a white horse. But the Angels in act 1, and Jesus Himself in the Olivet Discourse, say Jesus will come on the clouds... nothing about a horse. John has also been in heaven for most of these visions, not Earth. So John in the heavens sees the heavens open and then sees Jesus... not in heaven, but on Earth.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

the saints were in heaven, now they're on Earth, following Jesus to His final battle, and note Jesus is already covered in blood. This is the last battle, not the first. Isaiah 63 showed Him the same way, Isaiah, was reuniting with Jesus on Earth, after being resurrected, and hiding in chambers (heaven) during the wrath of God. Jesus had been on Earth treading out the winepress and staining His clothes with the blood of His enemies the whole time.

and this is almost gallows humor from God, but I laughed when I realized "wedding supper of the Lamb"

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

There was no "wedding supper of the Lamb" in heaven like pretrib teach it, the supper takes place on Earth and it's the carrion fowl feasting on the flesh of all the armies Jesus destroyed. Like I said.. bordering on gallows humor.


so Long story short: Tribulation -> second coming -> resurrection -> rapture -> wrath of God -> Armageddon

 

[Iseetrees1980]

That's what I try and get across as well. It's not even the original subject which started at verse 13. Paul was only trying to comfort them about their loved ones. And that Christ would be bringing those with him when he returned. He was not teaching about a pretrib rapture.

Exactly!

Glad this actually was helpful to someone. I didnt get detailed into describing what Paul meant with the up in air. But we know he does not tie it to before the trib.
If you want to really know what Paul meant I believe the answer is 1 Corinthians 15 along where it begins I tell you a mystery - about the change of bodies at the Last Trump The 7th The True Christ returns at. Paul there, teaches about the change of bodies at that time.
I believe that is exactly, what Paul drew and repeated in 1 Thessalians 4 part, caught up together with them in the clouds. The air is reference to that spiritual ( Greek but not atmosphere )
body change for 1st Corinthians 15 kjv. So it fit with the caught up in that. The clouds is colloquial speak, meaning a very large crowd of people. Christians at The Lords return of them who already died in the course of time. With them that remain to see the events of the second advent, go through that change instantly without death, thus all being together with The Lord.
see here a great cloud as in a army.

Ezekiel 38:9 KJV
“Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.”

See here likely Paul, a cloud of Christian witnesses.

Hebrews 12:1-2
King James Version
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


1 Corinthians 15:51-58
King James Version
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JulieB67]

The air is reference to that spiritual ( Greek but not atmosphere )

Yes, air in that verse does not mean air/sky as in elevation but the breathable air. So all are changed into spiritual bodies at that point when that last trump sounds.

 

[Jamdoc]

Of course, Paul was not referencing a book that wouldn't be written for decades yet when communicating to first century Corinthians.

Paul was referring to Zechariah 9 which I quoted in my earlier post. In Zechariah 9, the Lord God blows the Trumpet, in Matthew 24...

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus blows the "last trump", but an angel blows the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe, they are not the same.

 

[Iseetrees1980]

Yes, air in that verse does not mean air/sky as in elevation but the breathable air. So all are changed into spiritual bodies at that point when that last trump sounds.

are you on a discord or facebook ? end me a invite if u want.

 

[Iseetrees1980]

Yes, air in that verse does not mean air/sky as in elevation but the breathable air. So all are changed into spiritual bodies at that point when that last trump sounds.

If you have any studies that would help me refine the thought and sharpen it please invite me to receive those or share them whenever you can thank!

 

[Iseetrees1980]

Of course, Paul was not referencing a book that wouldn't be written for decades yet when communicating to first century Corinthians.

Paul was referring to Zechariah 9 which I quoted in my earlier post. In Zechariah 9, the Lord God blows the Trumpet, in Matthew 24...



Jesus blows the "last trump", but an angel blows the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe, they are not the same.

Of course, Paul was not referencing a book that wouldn't be written for decades yet when communicating to first century Corinthians.

Paul was referring to Zechariah 9 which I quoted in my earlier post. In Zechariah 9, the Lord God blows the Trumpet, in Matthew 24...



Jesus blows the "last trump", but an angel blows the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe, they are not the same.

This does not stand my test of reason. These passages are not related to,
the conclusion you put forth before of "There is a rapture, just not - etc" . Ill leave it there.
And only share that The Lord is returning to establish The Earth. Not remove from it.

 

[Marilyn C]

 

[Aaron112]

If you have any studies that would help me refine the thought and sharpen it please invite me to receive those or share them whenever you can thank!

Be aware it is very possible all the studies (the more the merrier!) may only distract more from truth, and bring confusion, as happens daily with studies on forum.

edit in : You already realize this , in part, it looks like>>

I believe rapture to be a dangerous theology that's happened today.
The doctrine muddies understanding of when Christ returns.

 

[Jamdoc]

This does not stand my test of reason. These passages are not related to,
the conclusion you put forth before of "There is a rapture, just not - etc" . Ill leave it there.
And only share that The Lord is returning to establish The Earth. Not remove from it.

They are related, Jesus and Paul were referencing Zechariah 9.

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

That "go forth as lightning" Jesus quotes that in Matthew 24, and Jesus also says HE will send forth His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. This is actually a passage where Jesus is identifying Himself as the Lord God of the Old Testament. If you do not believe these passages are connected to each other, then Jesus wasn't claiming to be God.. but to someone who recognizes the reference, that's exactly what Jesus is doing here, saying He is the Lord God who will be seen over them, and go forth as lightning and blowing the trumpet. Because in Zechariah 9 the Lord God does these things, in Matthew 24, Jesus is saying HE is going to do those things.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

a couple of details here that Paul draws from specifically, that when Jesus comes down and blows the trumpet, it's to rescue His people, and Paul notes that how they are rescued is that the people are taken up high, above the land like a banner, so Paul has it that those who are alive and get rescued are caught up into the clouds.

People think that Jesus and Paul just made up totally new doctrines pulling them from direct revelation from the aether, but no, they used the old testament extensively. If Paul was making up totally new doctrines that weren't in the Old Testament? The Bereans would have stoned him. They searched the scriptures (the Old Testament) and found what Paul was referencing and determined what Paul was saying was true, based on it being in the Old Testament.

This idea however that Paul was referencing something that wasn't in the old testament but instead would be in a book that wouldn't be written for 40 years in the future, and that Paul would say this stuff about a Last Trump that's in Revelation to explain it to the Corinthians and the Corinthians would just be like "ahhhhhh, the 7th trumpet in Revelation, even though that won't be written for 40 years, thanks Holy Spirit for showing us a book in the future!" is just silly.
But Paul referencing the Old Testament? The Corinthians would be able to search that scripture and see "oh so this is what brother Paul was talking about"

 

[Douggg]

The rapture/resurrection event is in 1Thessalonians 5:9-11.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [rapture/resurrection]

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. [same as 1Thessalonians 4:18]


The beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath will be poured out is in 2Thessalonians2:4, the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist (Daniel 8:13).

So the rapture could take place any time between right this very second and when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act - which will be about three years after the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39. The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 coincide with the 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9.

 

[Johan2222]

I believe rapture to be a dangerous theology that's happened today.
The doctrine muddies understanding of when Christ returns.

When Christ made it very clear He returns only after, The Tribulation of a false Christ.
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV.

1 Thessalians 4 is often taken out of its subject of life after death.
The return is not specifically detailed in the chapter. Paul does mentions the return only to conclude the subject that all believers in The Jesus Christ will reunite with their loved ones: Whether through the course of time by the natural process of dying of the body.
Or at the second advent, when only spiritual bodies remain on Earth at The True Lord Jesus Christ's return at the 7th Trump which is the last. Only After, the 6th has concluded.
Seems many then as today, are mistaken about the events leading up to The Lord return.
Unfamiliar with order of events outlined in The Word of God The Bible.
The rapture exacerbates this lack of Bible knowledge.

If 1st Thessalians 4 was not clear enough. Paul followed with the introduction of a new subject The return in 2nd Thessalian 2. Where he makes it very plainly clear there'll be no return of The True Lord Jesus Christ, not until after Satan (the son of perdition) arrives first. This follows all of The Bibles teachings.
The danger with the rapture is, it sets Christians up, to worship the first one that arrives only claiming, to be Jesus. It’s Satan instead of Him.

Luke 6:39 KJV
. . . Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

The rapture is revealed throughout scripture, including in the law, several times, and which Paul certainly alluded to more than once;

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ordinances that was against us and which was contrary to us is the law which deals with meat and drink and holy days and new moons and Sabbath days and Paul said the law was prophetic; Which are a shadow of things to come;

There are several foreshadowing prophecies of the rapture revealed in the law, one of which is in chapter eight of Genesis.

The number 8 in scripture represents (amongst other things) “new beginnings” and the prophecy of Christ’s first advent is revealed in the first occurrence of double eight in Genesis, Noah being man’s first new beginning, (Genesis 8.1) and Christ being the second.

Genesis 8:8

[8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

The first time the dove (the symbol of the Holy Spirit which revealed Christ) is sent forth from the ark in Genesis 8.8, she finds no rest for the sole of her foot. SINGULAR.

The first time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven He finds no rest for the sole of ONE foot.

One of the symptoms of a victim of crucifixion was the heel of the lower foot (which stood directly on the nail) would turn black from the extreme bruising. Genesis 3.15.

The second time the dove is sent forth she returns to the ark with an olive leaf in her mouth.

The second time Christ is sent forth from heaven He returns to the ark of heaven with His bride. (1 Thessalonians 4.16) The olive tree in scripture is used several times as a symbol of believers in Christ. Romans 11.17

Only one leaf of the tree is carried back to the ark.

Matthew 7:14 NKJV
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The third time the dove is sent forth from the ark she does not return to Noah.

The third time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven he does not return to God but remains and rules on earth for a thousand years.

Isaiah 46:10 KJV
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The rapture is a certainty, revealed in the law many times in many different scriptures. God is not the author of confusion as you believe.

 

[Michael Snow]

The apostolic teaching of Christ ( the NT (1 Th 4:16-17) is a dangerous theology?

Are you serious?

Does the apostolic teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16) muddle it, or does your theology muddle it?
My money is on the latter.

The doctrine couldn't be any clearer in the authoritative apostolic teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16) in 1 Th 4:16-17,
as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8); i.e.,

first, the Lord himself will come down from heaven,

second, the dead will rise,

third, the remaining living along with the risen believers will be caught up ("raptured") to meet the Lord in the air.

Christ (Mt 24:29-30) and Paul speaking for Christ (Lk 10:16) in 1 Th 4:16-17 do not disagree, but are in complete agreement.

Which "life after death" in vv. 16-17 starts with the
1) second coming,
2) resurrection and
3) rapture,
to be with the Lord forever, including assisting him in the judgment of the world (1 Co 6:2).

It couldn't be more plain than the authoritative apostolic teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16) in 1 Th 4:16-17, as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8)

Your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8) is disagreement with the plain apostolic teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16) in 1 Th 4:16-17, above.

No, what is dangerous is those who read INTO the Bible the notions of men (eisegesis) rather than reading what the Scripture is saying (exegesis)

And 1 Thessalonians, using the latter method, could not be any clearer.

On I Thessalonians: Not Leaving Context Behind

While sitting with my bed-ridden mother during the afternoon, I outlined First Thessalonians after reading her a Psalm. Paul ends this letter, “I charge you before the Lord to have this epistle rea…

textsincontext.wordpress.com

 

[Michael Snow]

The rapture/resurrection event is in 1Thessalonians 5:9-11.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [rapture/resurrection]

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. [same as 1Thessalonians 4:18]


The beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath will be poured out is in 2Thessalonians2:4, the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist (Daniel 8:13).

So the rapture could take place any time between right this very second and when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act - which will be about three years after the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39. The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 coincide with the 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9.



View attachment 360710

This displays the errors of the Left Behinders.


1) They wrongly use the "Wrath of God" “God did not appoint us to wrath”

2) They wrongly teach that Chrisians 'escape' this world before the Antichrist comes. 2 Thessalonians "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled…that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition… The Protestant’s Purgatory

 

[Michael Snow]

I believe rapture to be a dangerous theology that's happened today.
The doctrine muddies understanding of when Christ returns.

When Christ made it very clear He returns only after, The Tribulation of a false Christ.
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV.

1 Thessalians 4 is often taken out of its subject of life after death.
The return is not specifically detailed in the chapter. Paul does mentions the return only to conclude the subject that all believers in The Jesus Christ will reunite with their loved ones: Whether through the course of time by the natural process of dying of the body.
Or at the second advent, when only spiritual bodies remain on Earth at The True Lord Jesus Christ's return at the 7th Trump which is the last. Only After, the 6th has concluded.
Seems many then as today, are mistaken about the events leading up to The Lord return.
Unfamiliar with order of events outlined in The Word of God The Bible.
The rapture exacerbates this lack of Bible knowledge.

If 1st Thessalians 4 was not clear enough. Paul followed with the introduction of a new subject The return in 2nd Thessalian 2. Where he makes it very plainly clear there'll be no return of The True Lord Jesus Christ, not until after Satan (the son of perdition) arrives first. This follows all of The Bibles teachings.
The danger with the rapture is, it sets Christians up, to worship the first one that arrives only claiming, to be Jesus. Its Satan instead of Him.

AMEN

 

[1Tonne]

Many people have different views on the rapture. Some people are so fanatical about their view that they will say you are a heresy preacher if you have a different viewpoint to them. I sadly recently had this happen by a fanatical rapturist

The most common view with the people I know regarding the rapture seems to be that sometime either before, or during the tribulation, the dead believers are raptured first and then those believers who are alive will also be raised straight away after. But Jesus did not believe this and nor did the disciples.
Jesus said regarding the dead believers:
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:39-40 Jesus stated He would raise the dead believers on the last day. Not before.

Then Martha also confirmed that the dead believers will be raised on the last day.
"Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise from the dead.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” John 11:23-24.

So, Jesus clearly taught that the dead believers will be raised on the Day of Judgement, which is the last day. The question that should then be asked is, when are those believers who are alive raised? In 1Thes 4:15 it says that the dead will rise first before those who are left alive. It says, "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep." And also, 1 Thes 4:16c "and the dead in Christ will rise first." Those who are left alive will not be raised before the dead are raised first. If the dead believers are not raised until the last day as Jesus said, then those who are left alive cannot be raised either. So, there is no secret rapture for all believers. All are raised on the last day.
Now, from this we know that the dead believers are not raised until the last day, and so also, those who believe and are alive cannot be raised either.
There is still a rapture though, and it is mentioned in 1 Thes 4:14b. "so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus." The question is, who are the people that return with Christ?

This is answered in Revelation 20:4-6. It says, "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."
Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of a rapture, but it is only for those who are killed for their testimony of Jesus. No other believers are raptured up at this time. It is specifically only those who died as a martyr. These are those who are asleep in Christ, as in 1Thes 4. They will be raised and then they will reign with Christ for 1000 years. Then, at the very end of the age, on the last day, everyone left, both those who are still alive and those who are dead, both believers and non-believers, will be raised and meet with Christ in the air. This is the last day.

So, going back to 1 Thes 4:13-18, it simply states that those who are martyred (asleep in Him, or the dead in Christ) will return with Him and reign for 1000 years. And then at the end of the 1000 years, those people who believe and are alive will be raised with everyone else to meet with the Lord in the air on the last day. Some to everlasting life and some to everlasting death.

By this, we can see that there is no special rapture for all believers before the tribulation or during the tribulation. Jesus stated that believers are raised at the end. There is a special rapture though for the martyrs, but no one else. Then, at the end, everyone else is raised on the last day.

 

[Clare73]

Many people have different views on the rapture. Some people are so fanatical about their view that they will say you are a heresy preacher if you have a different viewpoint to them. I sadly recently had this happen by a fanatical rapturist

The most common view

I favor Christ's view (Lk 10:16) by Paul (1 Th 4:16-17).