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The Liturgist

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I love to live with a little bit of mystery in Scripture...I don't have to have everything ticked and tied.

You have an Orthodox phronema.

The only possible disagreement I might have with you is over monergism, but I suspect if we had a few hours to look at Patristic and Lutheran theologians and Scripture we could hash out an understanding, because its seems that that the monergism you believe in is very different from the kinds of monergism that the Orthodox disagree with (specifically the “five points Calvinism” of TULIP along with Universalism* and Pelagianism).

*Which cannot even be discussed here, but I mention it as an example of a monergist theology explicitly rejected by the Eastern Orthodox, although at one time the Assyrian Church of the East, which was heavily influenced by Nestorius, believed in it. I myself regard Monothelitism as being required by hard Nestorianism, since in dividing Christ into a separate human and divine person in a union of will, it is obvious that there can be only one will to unite the two persons.
 
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fhansen

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Some propose a theory of atonement that involves the payment of a ransom. Holy scripture uses the word 'ransom' in connection with Christ's death. What is your opinion about it?

(Matthew 20:28 KJV) Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

(Mark 10:45 KJV) For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

(1 Timothy 2:6 KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Atonement theories will remain what they are: theoretical, but I tend to appreciate what's been said about the ransom being paid to God-by God, Himself, actually, taking the matter wholly into His own hands, for our sake. That's the ultimate in grace.

But we have a mixture of theologies here anyway. From my perspective that grace is available to all, and some will take that ball and run with it while others won’t. Those who do, and remain running with it until the end, are the elect. That’s what we can know from our side-and at the same time God, alone, knows with 100% certainty just who they are.

The gospel is not about a carte balance reprieve from the penalty of all my sins past, present, and future as long as I believe, unrelated to how I live my life once justified, once a new creation walking by the Spirit now in communion with God. That would be a distortion of the gospel. The gospel is about entering reconciled relationship with God by faith, the branch now grafted into the Vine where it’s meant to be. From that basic right and just position or state, true righteousness will begin to flow in and through man. But apart from that state, apart from Him, IOW, we can do nothing-John 15:5. That’s the gospel. And if we’re back embroiled in sin more than we’re overcoming it at the end of the day, then we’re already departing from Him, failing to remain in Him, leaving our new-found justice/righteousness behind.

We’re saved unto righteousness, IOW. Rom 6:23 means exactly what it says:
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. NIV

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. RSV

The gift of eternal life comes by way of and is inseparable from the gift of righteousness that frees us from the condemnation to death that sin otherwise earns us. This is a righteousness apart from the law ( Rom 3:21); accomplishing, by the Spirit, what the law could not. It’s a righteousness that comes through and on the basis of faith (Rom 3:22, Phil 3:9), by acknowledging, trusting, and relying on God instead of myself, which is the path that Adam took and initiated for humankind. Turning to God is simultaneously a turning away from the sin and worldly values that prevail due to our alienation from Him.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Rom 5:17
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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There is a happy exchange, in which Christ shares in our death, that we might share in His life. By satisfying the Law and sharing in our death, the wrath--the just condemnation of our sin under the Law--is also satisfied.
AMEN! AND AMEN. THE HAPPY EXCHANGE is probably the earliest articulation of vicarious satisfaction model we have.

The first time I heard this term THE HAPPY EXCHANGE was from Gal 3:3 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us....which becomes WE GET THE FORGIVENESS AND GOD GETS THE CURSE. Other statements of the Great Exchange would be MY SIN FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. There are many many short terse statement of the Great Exchange.

Athanasius' On the Incarnation (2:9) wrote

"The Word perceived that corruption could not be got rid of otherwise than through death; yet He Himself, as the Word, being immortal and the Father's Son, was such as could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection.

Larger aspects of the Great Exchange span the entire corpus of the NT;

WHAT DID JESUS ACCOMPLISH

  • Redemption
  • Ransom
  • Substitution
  • Propitiation
  • Reconciliation
  • Atonement

THE BENEFITS

  • Justification
  • Imputation
  • Regeneration
  • Adoption
  • Sanctification
  • Perfection
  • Glorification
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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The only possible disagreement I might have with you is over monergism.
The only possible disagreement I might have with you is over synergism.
 
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fhansen

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I could not disagree MORE: Not theoretical.
Alright-better to be certain than less than certain whenver possible. It works, at least as long as we don't have to have everything ticked and tied I guess.
 
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The Liturgist

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The only possible disagreement I might have with you is over synergism.

Indeed, bur like I said, I reckon we could hammer it out in a few hours of careful discussion and research. Eastern and Oriental Orthodox synergism does not mean the same thing as Western synergism since it is entirely non-Pelagian and no one involved in it expressed any interest in Pelagius but rather anathematized him, whereas distressingly, John Wesley did express an interest in Pelagianism.

The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox model of original sin is furthermore based on the writings of St. John Cassian, who I regard as superior to St. Augustine in his contemporary rebuttal of Pelagius (which was also initially preferred by the Roman church, before the Scholastics inexplicably dumped St. John Cassian and elevated St. Augustine to the Early Church Father par excellence (previously, only St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Athanasius of Alexandria and the Three Holy Hierarchs came close to such a level of admiration, among saints who were also scholars of divinity whose writings survive and are actively used, not including persons glorified for other reasons, such as St. Nicholas the Bishop of Myra).

The Eastern Orthodox do actively love St. Augustine and embrace most of his doctrine - where we disagree with him primarily is that we believe original sin is inherited, but not transmitted in sexual intercourse as a result of concupiscence, since the marriage bed is undefiled. Rather we inherit original sin and the temptations, what St. Anthony the Great called Inclinations that drive us to become enslaved to the passions, Homo incurvatus in se as the Lutheran Orthodox divines so eloquently put it.
 
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The Liturgist

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In the sense that each and every one of us is under wrath because of our sin; since God is good and holy. Jesus doesn't save us from God; but does make satisfaction of the Law by His obedience to the Law. There is a happy exchange, in which Christ shares in our death, that we might share in His life. By satisfying the Law and sharing in our death, the wrath--the just condemnation of our sin under the Law--is also satisfied.

When this stops being about the way in which God, hidden behind the veil of the Law, is terrifying; and in the Law all we can see is the dread and awful truth of our own blatant unrighteousness; and instead becomes this idea that there are two opposing forces in the Trinity: God the Father as an angry and vengeful God out to get us because He hates us and wants to see us destroyed; and God the Son as a benevolent shield and bulwark against the hate of God the Father everything immediately goes sideways to a place that is entirely in opposition to the Christian Gospel.

Wrath is not about a mean-spirited angry divine power lurking above wanting to destroy us. Wrath is what it looks like when sinners behold God hidden (Deus absconditus) behind the bare nudity (Deus nudus) of His righteousness in the Law. It's Adam and Eve in the Garden, suddenly aware that they are naked, and trying to hide their shame by putting fig leaves on. It's what happens when a dark place is exposed to sunlight, and creepy-crawlies all scatter in fear. But we know what and who God is, we know it through His Son, His Son made flesh and who suffered and died for us (Deus revelatus). Here is the Father's great and abundant love toward us sinners, Christ died for us. Wrath is to behold God hidden behind the Law, it is to see God without Christ, without faith. And all who seek to find God hidden, and without Christ, will always find they rightly deserve death and hell--because the Law is a mirror, and what it reflects back to us is ourselves in all of our ugliness.

-CryptoLutheran

When talking about what we call atonement Scripture employs lots of ways of talking about it.

This is one of the problems with selecting a single atonment theory and rejecting everything else. Scripture does talk about payment, about Christ bearing punishment in our stead, the language of payment, satisfaction, and substitution, and legal language is all there. But so is the language of ransom, and healing, and restitution, and victory.

Atonement is a big word that covers a lot of ideas in Scripture. The Incarnation, the life and obedience of Jesus, His suffering and death, His resurrection, His ascension, His reign, and His coming again are all the stuff that is about our salvation, the salvation and healing of all creation, and the meaning and point of everything in the Bible from Genesis 1:1 onward. It's big stuff. And we can't merely reduce it to a singular theory or pithy theological sound bite.

-CryptoLutheran

These posts almost word for word echo Eastern Orthodox doctrine as expressed by the likes of Fr. John Behr, Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, et cetera.

Out of curiosity, did you derive all of that from Lutheran writers, or did you rely on any Eastern Orthodox sources in compiling that? Because if the former is the case, I think there is an urgent need for the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches to take a closer look at Lutheranism, which we may have greatly misunderstood and underestimated, perhaps because of intemperate statements by Martin Luther and the terrible problems caused for Lutherans that ruined several of the great Lutheran churches by Pietism, Rationalism, Crypto-Calvinism and Liberalism, which are clearly rejected by the Evangelical Catholics of the Augsburg Confession, the Lutheran Orthodox like yourself.

I should also tag my very dear confessional Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch because I think he might enjoy this conversation.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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The Eastern Orthodox do actively love St. Augustine and embrace most of his doctrine - where we disagree with him primarily is that we believe original sin is inherited, but not transmitted in sexual intercourse as a result of concupiscence, since the marriage bed is undefiled. Rather we inherit original sin and the temptations, what St. Anthony the Great called Inclinations that drive us to become enslaved to the passions, Homo incurvatus in se as the Lutheran Orthodox divines so eloquently put it.
Infants are faithless...therefore they clearly transgress the First Commandment. This is real sin. All of Adams descendants lack his original righteousness, and born in sin infants like heathen adults.... neither fear God, love God nor can they love God. All mankind as unregenerate place themselves as their own god or above God regardless of age. This is the nature of transgression the First Commandment.

Being born faithless is NOT an inclination to sin. It is raw sin, as man's nature is so corrupt there is no distinction between between
 the 
nature 
and
 essence
 of
 man
 and 
original
 sin. And you know all the verses of Scripture that Clare73 has listed so many times. All of mankind suffers from Adam's sin, as we are no longer made in God's images but Adam's (Gen 5:1-2).

Of course baptism is the antidote...as a means of grace bring FAITH and Christ to the child. Because baptism contains the Word of God, it can create faith and regenerate. This is not ex opere operato.
 
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The Liturgist

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Infants are faithless...therefore they clearly transgress the First Commandment. This is real sin. All of Adams descendants lack his original righteousness, and born in sin infants like heathen adults.... neither fear God, love God nor can they love God. All mankind as unregenerate place themselves as their own god or above God regardless of age. This is the nature of transgression the First Commandment.

Indeed, this is correct. I like the concept that the lack of faith is the aspect that makes inherited sin deadly.

The Eastern Orthodox do baptize infants and believe in baptismal regeneration as described in the Nicene Creed. Furthermore, we do this baptism the same way we baptize adults: by threefold holy immersion, unless there is some medical obstacle preventing this. But baptisms performed by other denominations that normally use aspersion or affusion are routinely accepted and normalized via Chrismation, such as my own Methodist baptism, provided they are in the formula of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (except by the schismatic Old Calendarists, who believe even canonical Eastern Orthodox baptisms are invalid).

Being born faithless is NOT an inclination to sin. It is raw sin, as man's nature is so corrupt there is no distinction between between
 the 
nature 
and
 essence
 of
 man
 and 
original
 sin. And you know all the verses of Scripture that Clare73 has listed so many times. All of mankind suffers from Adam's sin, as we are no longer made in God's images but Adam's (Gen 5:1-2).

Of course baptism is the antidote...as a means of grace bring FAITH and Christ to the child. Because baptism contains the Word of God, it can create faith and regenerate. This is not ex opere operato.

Indeed, and we see the evidence of emergent faith in infants we have baptized. For this reason you will never find an Orthodox Church with a cry room. We like the sounds that infants make. Frequently it seems to me that they are pronouncing the name of God contained in the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) or other sounds which are similar to the sound of the name of Jesus Christ in some languages, or of Elohim. This is my private opinion, but it is a fact that the Orthodox abhor cry rooms, which are often used in those megachurches where the pastors want to get a clean recording of their sermons which can then be packaged and sold.
 
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fhansen

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Indeed, bur like I said, I reckon we could hammer it out in a few hours of careful discussion and research. Eastern and Oriental Orthodox synergism does not mean the same thing as Western synergism since it is entirely non-Pelagian and no one involved in it expressed any interest in Pelagius but rather anathematized him, whereas distressingly, John Wesley did express an interest in Pelagianism.

The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox model of original sin is furthermore based on the writings of St. John Cassian, who I regard as superior to St. Augustine in his contemporary rebuttal of Pelagius (which was also initially preferred by the Roman church, before the Scholastics inexplicably dumped St. John Cassian and elevated St. Augustine to the Early Church Father par excellence (previously, only St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Athanasius of Alexandria and the Three Holy Hierarchs came close to such a level of admiration, among saints who were also scholars of divinity whose writings survive and are actively used, not including persons glorified for other reasons, such as St. Nicholas the Bishop of Myra).

The Eastern Orthodox do actively love St. Augustine and embrace most of his doctrine - where we disagree with him primarily is that we believe original sin is inherited, but not transmitted in sexual intercourse as a result of concupiscence, since the marriage bed is undefiled. Rather we inherit original sin and the temptations, what St. Anthony the Great called Inclinations that drive us to become enslaved to the passions, Homo incurvatus in se as the Lutheran Orthodox divines so eloquently put it.
Hi Liturgist! You do know, I would think, that the RCC also rejects that particular nugget of Augustine’s teachings?
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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megachurches where the pastors want to get a clean recording of their sermons which can then be packaged and sold.
love that thought...

We have one two year old boy who is hyper active. Will not stay still. He is this way at home as at church. Parents want him in church but he has a set of lungs that will stand against a 30 rank organ. Mom just takes him out for a few minutes and then comes back in. My mom told me her story of the liturgy....it was rumbling sound until she learned it was corporate worship. And never forgot that discovery which made the liturgy all that more important to her. The Liturgy always brought her back to her childhood before her father died when she was young.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hi Liturgist! You do know, I would think, that the RCC also rejects that particular nugget of Augustine’s teachings?

Not sufficiently, which is why your church felt the need to develop the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which would be superfluous from an Orthodox perspective, since it is not the process of conception that causes one to inherit the sinful condition. We are conceived in sin, but are not corrupted by original sin as a result of our conception, but rather because the condition of hereditary sin applies in general and would be unavoidable.

Furthermore, the idea that all conceptions except for that of the Theotokos are unclean contradicts the Scriptural statement that the marriage bed is undefiled. Conception, whether due to concupiscence or some other aspect of human reproduction, is not the means by which we inherit original sin.

Thus the Orthodox believe the Theotokos was conceived in the same way as everyone else, which furthermore protects the full humanity of Jesus Christ - she also required salvation from her Son, just like everyone else, despite not, according to our faith, ever having committed an intentional act of sin (or having sinned through negligence or omission), but rather, she was saved by her Son, because of original sin.

Indeed, that she was taken up to heaven bodily at the Dormition (called the Assumption by the Oriental Orthodox) and there revived after her death (which she would not have experienced had she not been born into original sin) contradicts the Immaculate Conception.

The problem with the Immaculate Conception dogma is that it has caused some Catholics to deny that the Theotokos died at the incarnation (and the dogmatic definition of Pope Pius XII on the issue did not bring clarity to the issue, but rather seems to have been written to accomodate both views), and this in turn has led to groups like the Fifth Dogma people who advocate for the Theotokos to be declared “Co-Redemptrix” which would be an extreme and intolerable soteriological, Mariological, Christological and eschatological error (fortunately, they are a minority, and their case is not helped by the fact that it is connected to the spurious apparitions seen by Ida Peerdeman, which were deemed by the CDF to be unworthy of belief, in which Ida Peerdeman was visited by “The Lady who was once Mary”, a title used by no apparition of the Theotokos regarded as genuine by the CDF, and who behaved in a threatening manner which is behavior unrecorded in the Bible and accepted Hagiopgraphic material and hymnody of the ancient church, and can thus be regarded as behavior not expected from Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, who lovingly points us to her Son our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, and therefore despite some efforts at promoting it by a recent Archbishop of Amsterdam in a dangerous attempt to promote his local church without considering adverse theological implications, is not widely accepted), however, all of this aside, it is worth nothing that there would be no “Fifth Dogma” initiative if it had not been for the Immaculate Conception, which in turn would not have been an issue had it not been for Vatican I and Papal Infallibility.

I would also note that insofar as it apparently took a dogmatic definition from Pope Pius XII to make the Assumption official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, the RCC does not appear to follow the principle of Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, considering that the Assumption had been celebrated liturgically since antiquity and was regarded as dogma in the Orthodox church since antiquity.

Nothing celebrated in the liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox churches lacks dogmatic or doctrinal standing - indeed, those parts of scripture read liturgically are regarded as more important than those which aren’t, and the more frequently something is read, or the more prominent its use, the more important it is (thus the seven Resurrection Gospels read at Matins, the Beatitudes, and certain Psalms such as 102, 103, 106, 94, and 95 (LXX) are among the most important liturgical texts for us, and John 1:1-14, which is read at the end of the Divine Liturgy in the Armenian Apostolic Church, is one of the most important liturgical texts for them (this was a Latinization, but a good one; I think one of the worst changes in the Novus Ordo Missae was deleting the Last Gospel, and I strongly advocate for its use in all Western Rite churches during all Solemn Masses with a deacon; likewise most of the Western Rite Orthodox use it).

Furthermore, while the Roman Catholic Church heavily edited the liturgies of the Sui Juris churches that were set up to compete with the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East such as the Coptic Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Syro-Malabar Catholics, Malankara Catholics and Ethiopian Catholics under the assumption, later shown to be inaccurate by Pope Benedict XVI during his tenure, that those churches were heretical, in the case of the Greek Catholics, the Byzantine Rite Catholics, while some Latinization did occur, it was less severe and less pervasive than in most other Eastern Catholic churches. This has led to some contradictions - for example, the Eastern Catholics celebrate the second Sunday of Lent as the Sunday of St. Gregory Palamas, who is not venerated in the Western church and who taught things which contradicted Thomas Aquinas. Additionally most Eastern Catholic Churches do not use the filioque, although this is less of a contradiction than it might seem - Rome did declare that the filioque would be misleading if expressed in Greek, and while the vast majority of Greek Catholics are not Greek (indeed the Byzantine Catholic Church in Greece has just four parishes and 6,000 members and is smaller than even the Russian Greek Catholic Church (which has 13 parishes in Russia in addition to some abroad, for example, there is one in Los Angeles), it seems reasonable that since so much Greek theology is preserved in the Greek Catholic / Byzantine Rite churches, that to introduce the filioque would cause confusion therein.
 
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The Liturgist

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love that thought...

We have one two year old boy who is hyper active. Will not stay still. He is this way at home as at church. Parents want him in church but he has a set of lungs that will stand against a 30 rank organ. Mom just takes him out for a few minutes and then comes back in. My mom told me her story of the liturgy....it was rumbling sound until she learned it was corporate worship. And never forgot that discovery which made the liturgy all that more important to her. The Liturgy always brought her back to her childhood before her father died when she was young.

The beauty of the liturgy is its ability to provide anamnesis and communion. Anamnesis, a word meaning remembrance, memorial or recapitulation (literally, it means something like “to put yourself in this moment” and is one of those lovely multifaceted Greek words like Logos or Prosopon), in the sense that the liturgy not only recalls our own past in the church, making it present, but also brings us into contact with our Lord at the last Supper, and in the Jordan at baptisms and at the Great Blessing of Water on Theophany (Epiphany) and on other occasions, and also, insofar as it is timeless, offers us a foretaste of the bliss of eternal life, in which we will be delivered from the crushing passage of time with all of the loss, grief, sorrow, boredom, frustration and regret that accompanies it (which the Christian faith alone offers us true hope to escape - I weep and pray for those who have not been blessed by the Gospel once delivered to the Apostles, but instead, at best, comfort themselves with delusions like those of Buddhism which are intended to ameliorate the pain caused by the passage of time, change, and death, but Buddhism is just a mental trick (and indeed, several of the more ancient varieties of Buddhism* such as Therevada do not really make any compelling claims otherwise) , whereas Christianity offers real hope for salvation and deliverance - hope backed by verifiable miracles over the centuries.

And these miracles can be encountered in the liturgy of those churches of Orthodox faith such as yours and mine (see the PM I have sent you).
 
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ViaCrucis

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These posts almost word for word echo Eastern Orthodox doctrine as expressed by the likes of Fr. John Behr, Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, et cetera.

Out of curiosity, did you derive all of that from Lutheran writers, or did you rely on any Eastern Orthodox sources in compiling that? Because if the former is the case, I think there is an urgent need for the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches to take a closer look at Lutheranism, which we may have greatly misunderstood and underestimated, perhaps because of intemperate statements by Martin Luther and the terrible problems caused for Lutherans that ruined several of the great Lutheran churches by Pietism, Rationalism, Crypto-Calvinism and Liberalism, which are clearly rejected by the Evangelical Catholics of the Augsburg Confession, the Lutheran Orthodox like yourself.

I should also tag my very dear confessional Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch because I think he might enjoy this conversation.

The specifics are primarily Lutheran. Going back to Luther himself, there is his famous "dark storm cloud" sermon. But I'll freely admit that, over the course of my life, I've engaged with Orthodox, Anglican, and Catholic thinkers. I recall, for example, C.S. Lewis talking about his appreciation for all the historic Atonement Theories. Gustav Aulen, though admittedly probably somewhat controversial, nevertheless was a Lutheran who was interested in bringing the language of ransom and recapitulation back into Western theological discourse, with his work Christus Victor.

But it's within the context of the Lutheran tradition that I heard, and have appreciated, the vital distinction between Law and Gospel--which is central and essential to all Lutheran thought; and that is also where the distinction between God in His hiddenness and God in His revelation is also made. This goes all the way back, also, to Luther's Heidelberg Disputations, for Luther one is not a theologian who speaks of the invisible things of God--His glory, power, wisdom, etc--but rather one is a theologian who speaks of the visible things of God, namely, the Incarnate Jesus who suffered and died on the cross. Luther appeals to Romans chapter 1, where we read that while the invisible attributes of God are on display through creation (God's power and wisdom etc) this did not lead to worship of the true Creator God, rather men, because of sin, turned to various idolatries and we behold a full distortion of the human vocation. In the same way, the Law has never made anyone righteous; instead as St. Paul says in Romans 7, the Law--good and holy, intended to bring life--instead brings death, because we are sinful. Indeed, the Law was given and sin increased.

The Lutheran Confessions speak of the Three Uses of the Law, with special attention and emphasis on the Second Use; namely that the Law is a mirror, which reflects the true depth of our unrighteousness and sin. The irony is this: The harder we try to be righteous by the Law, the more unrighteous we are--the more we understand the depths of true holiness and goodness, the more we realize we aren't these things--we are sinful beyond measure.

The Law does not exist because God wants to kill or injure His creatures; the Law is the truth of God's own righteousness as the Creator; without sin, the Law is life-giving, joyful, amazing; because being united to God in perfect communion with Him, as the true image-bearing human person, is perfect and true life. But sin changes all that; the Law which should bring life, brings death. So the condemnation of the Law, the wrath of God, is not about God above lofty and sneering at us, cursing us, despising us, like a maniac with an itchy trigger finger. It's the dark storm cloud of man in his sin, man without faith, the sinner without Christ. It looks at God and rather than seeing the loving Father who sends His Son for us, it sees instead the dread curse of death--our rightly deserved condemnation, that we deserve death and hell. It's not about God wanting to send us to hell--God doesn't want that, the Scriptures attest constantly that God is Life-Giver, He does not delight in the death of the wicked, He desires the wicked repent and live; the will of God is that all repent, that all are saved, that all know Him and love Him and are loved by Him in and through His Son. That all should know Him through Jesus Christ.

So wrath is not about an angry sky despot looking about who to send to hell, only to have some spared because of a legal loophole. Wrath is what it looks like when we behold the true abyss of our sin, and our own collaboration with death and the death-filled powers of this fallen age (Having been listening to several works by N.T. Wright recently, he'd probably use the phrase "powers of anti-creation"). Apart from Christ, apart from the life-giving grace found in Jesus Christ, through whom we behold God truly, we have only the dark storm cloud.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Indeed, and we see the evidence of emergent faith in infants we have baptized. For this reason you will never find an Orthodox Church with a cry room. We like the sounds that infants make. Frequently it seems to me that they are pronouncing the name of God contained in the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) or other sounds which are similar to the sound of the name of Jesus Christ in some languages, or of Elohim. This is my private opinion, but it is a fact that the Orthodox abhor cry rooms, which are often used in those megachurches where the pastors want to get a clean recording of their sermons which can then be packaged and sold.

I've yet to encounter a Lutheran church with a separate space for children away from the rest of the congregation. There isn't a separate "children's church" (something I remember specifically when I was a young child at the non-denominational church I was born into). Baptized children are members of Christ's Body, they need to hear the Word, Jesus gives Himself to them. Their faith, which they have received in the precious gift of their baptism, is sustained and strengthened by God through His Word, by the Holy Spirit who works in them, as He does all of us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bling

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Scripture knows nothing of "the atonement process," an invention of man.
It is not just one action, but steps you go through, which means it is a process one of those steps is the atonement sacrifice be offered up.
Biblical atonement is shedding of blood; i.e., death, sacrifice of life (Lev 17:11).
Lev. 5 has a bag of flour can be used. The blood is needed to cleanse everything before hand and can be part of the atonement sacrifice.
 
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bling

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Blood was never the means by which a person received God's free gift of Eternal Life. It has always been belief in Jesus, the Person who walked in the garden.

And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
You have to trust God (Believe/ have faith in) to believe He real can help you (forgive you) to humble accept God pure undeserved Love in the form of forgiveness.
 
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The Liturgist

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The specifics are primarily Lutheran. Going back to Luther himself, there is his famous "dark storm cloud" sermon. But I'll freely admit that, over the course of my life, I've engaged with Orthodox, Anglican, and Catholic thinkers. I recall, for example, C.S. Lewis talking about his appreciation for all the historic Atonement Theories. Gustav Aulen, though admittedly probably somewhat controversial, nevertheless was a Lutheran who was interested in bringing the language of ransom and recapitulation back into Western theological discourse, with his work Christus Victor.

But it's within the context of the Lutheran tradition that I heard, and have appreciated, the vital distinction between Law and Gospel--which is central and essential to all Lutheran thought; and that is also where the distinction between God in His hiddenness and God in His revelation is also made. This goes all the way back, also, to Luther's Heidelberg Disputations, for Luther one is not a theologian who speaks of the invisible things of God--His glory, power, wisdom, etc--but rather one is a theologian who speaks of the visible things of God, namely, the Incarnate Jesus who suffered and died on the cross. Luther appeals to Romans chapter 1, where we read that while the invisible attributes of God are on display through creation (God's power and wisdom etc) this did not lead to worship of the true Creator God, rather men, because of sin, turned to various idolatries and we behold a full distortion of the human vocation. In the same way, the Law has never made anyone righteous; instead as St. Paul says in Romans 7, the Law--good and holy, intended to bring life--instead brings death, because we are sinful. Indeed, the Law was given and sin increased.

The Lutheran Confessions speak of the Three Uses of the Law, with special attention and emphasis on the Second Use; namely that the Law is a mirror, which reflects the true depth of our unrighteousness and sin. The irony is this: The harder we try to be righteous by the Law, the more unrighteous we are--the more we understand the depths of true holiness and goodness, the more we realize we aren't these things--we are sinful beyond measure.

The Law does not exist because God wants to kill or injure His creatures; the Law is the truth of God's own righteousness as the Creator; without sin, the Law is life-giving, joyful, amazing; because being united to God in perfect communion with Him, as the true image-bearing human person, is perfect and true life. But sin changes all that; the Law which should bring life, brings death. So the condemnation of the Law, the wrath of God, is not about God above lofty and sneering at us, cursing us, despising us, like a maniac with an itchy trigger finger. It's the dark storm cloud of man in his sin, man without faith, the sinner without Christ. It looks at God and rather than seeing the loving Father who sends His Son for us, it sees instead the dread curse of death--our rightly deserved condemnation, that we deserve death and hell. It's not about God wanting to send us to hell--God doesn't want that, the Scriptures attest constantly that God is Life-Giver, He does not delight in the death of the wicked, He desires the wicked repent and live; the will of God is that all repent, that all are saved, that all know Him and love Him and are loved by Him in and through His Son. That all should know Him through Jesus Christ.

So wrath is not about an angry sky despot looking about who to send to hell, only to have some spared because of a legal loophole. Wrath is what it looks like when we behold the true abyss of our sin, and our own collaboration with death and the death-filled powers of this fallen age (Having been listening to several works by N.T. Wright recently, he'd probably use the phrase "powers of anti-creation"). Apart from Christ, apart from the life-giving grace found in Jesus Christ, through whom we behold God truly, we have only the dark storm cloud.

-CryptoLutheran

It seems to me then that the Confessional Lutheran understanding of the Passion of our Lord on the Cross is actually very similar, remarkably similar, to the Orthodox understanding. I wonder if I might be able to persuade you or another of my Lutheran friends who agrees with your understanding (perhaps @Ain't Zwinglian , if he agrees with your post, or @MarkRohfrietsch if he has time, which he probably doesn’t) to look at some Orthodox liturgical texts on the subject, some brief excepts from our service books that I can whip up, along with some quotes from Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, and Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, to see if you find them compatible with your view. Mainly the liturgical texts because we operate as much as any denomination on the basis of Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. Indeed there is very little of Orthodox theology or tradition that is not in some way encoded into the liturgy, into the proper hymns for various occasions. Orthros (Matins + Lauds) in particular is a veritable treasure trove of theological information.
 
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d taylor

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You have to trust God (Believe/ have faith in) to believe He real can help you (forgive you) to humble accept God pure undeserved Love in the form of forgiveness.
-

God is offering His free gift of Eternal Life to anyone who will believe in Jesus, it is that simple. The problem is many know or have read this in The Bible, but they do not believe this.

And knowing is not believing.
I know it is stated that man has been to the moon by the government, scientist, television, nasa, etc.. but i do not believe this.
 
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