Jesus & James

[tdidymas]

Sure they are. The Church, that Christ established, has always taught that stuff.

Now we get to the idea of apostolic succession, the Pope being the vicar of Christ, etc. ad infinitum errors. Ho-hum, I'm sick of this conversation. I'm out of here.

 

[fhansen]

Now we get to the idea of apostolic succession, the Pope being the vicar of Christ, etc. ad infinitum errors. Ho-hum, I'm sick of this conversation. I'm out of here.

I see. Like there's something wrong with the church having a continous legacy of consistent teachings on justification from the beginning, pretty well shared across the board with other ancient sources, while having multiple churches with division based on Scripture alone instead is somehow superior. And you're not even willing to research the sources of any of those orignal teachings either, which set down the essential nature of grace for salvation so that you might actually better understand the topic you're discussing here.

The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

 

[fhansen]

Macabees is not in my Bible because it's not inspired text. In order for the CC to justify merited salvation, they had to invent a purgatory to purge sins through suffering that comes from some obscure statement in Macabees. This is the crux of CC error, formulating dogmas from erroneous interpretations.

No...that's the error of the Reformers-who nonetheless often disagreed with each other as well while also removing some of the canon of OT Scripture. The concept of the need for final purification before being capable of seeing God, fully freed from our attractions to lesser, created things over the Creator first above all else IOW, as well as the practice of praying for the dead as the Jews did, is consistent from the beginning in the churches in the east and west.

 

[Valletta]

Macabees is not in my Bible because it's not inspired text. In order for the CC to justify merited salvation, they had to invent a purgatory to purge sins through suffering that comes from some obscure statement in Macabees. This is the crux of CC error, formulating dogmas from erroneous interpretations.

I assure you that neither Jesus nor the Apostles nor the Catholic Church fathers nor doctors "invented" anything to support doctrine. Their interpretation of the Word of God may indeed differ from your personal interpretation, but please do not assume any dishonesty or insincerity.
Books of Maccabees were unfortunately removed from within the bindings of the King James Bible versions in the 1800s, it didn't happen before because even some of the most strident anti-Catholic Protestants realized the importance of the historical value. You may be surprised to learn that Maccabees does not define the doctrine of purgatory, but instead chronicles the historic practice of Jews praying for the dead and praying for atonement for them. Remember Jesus was a devout Jew.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

Revelation 21:27 ... but nothing unclean will enter it (the City of God), nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Isaiah 6:5-7 Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."

 

[Valletta]

But the idea you vehemently oppose is that grace is 100% God's work, excluding your "free-will" cooperation (i.e. your works). T

Catholics believe grace is totally a gift from God. We believe the graces God showers upon us are undeserved.

 

[tdidymas]

Catholics believe grace is totally a gift from God. We believe the graces God showers upon us are undeserved.

You're contradicting the idea that justification is merited by works. Do you deny that the RCC officially teaches that?

 

[Valletta]

You're contradicting the idea that justification is merited by works. Do you deny that the RCC officially teaches that?

The Protestant concept of justification is different, not a process as Catholics know it. Unfortunately this creates much misunderstanding. No works merit our initial justification.

 

[Valletta]

Now we get to the idea of apostolic succession . . .

Acts 1:12-26​

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away; 13 and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.[a]
15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong[b] he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel′dama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his habitation become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;
and
‘His office let another take.’

21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”[c] 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab′bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi′as. 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. RSVCE

 

[tdidymas]

Acts 1:12-26​

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away; 13 and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.[a]
15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong[b] he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel′dama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his habitation become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;
and
‘His office let another take.’

21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”[c] 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab′bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi′as. 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. RSVCE

Where are the 12 popes?

 

[tdidymas]

The Protestant concept of justification is different, not a process as Catholics know it. Unfortunately this creates much misunderstanding. No works merit our initial justification.

According to Rom. 3:24 & Rom. 5:1, justification is a past event for true believers. Show me anywhere in scripture where justification is a PROCESS. I expect you to cite Ja. 2:24, but you would be wrong then, as I've explained many times before what he means by that. Then, you may be confused between justification and sanctification, as most RCC "scholars" are. Justification is unmerited and unconditional - read Rom. 3:24 carefully in its context. The reason why the Protestant concept of justification is different than the RCC, is because we have it right according to the correct meaning of scripture and the RCC has it wrong. If you disagree and don't want to admit that you could be wrong about it, then I think this conversation is over.

 

[Valletta]

Where are the 12 popes?

As to papal succession, Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave him the keys to the kingdom using wording that Jews of the time would realize paralleled Isaiah. In Isaiah, in the Davidic kingdom, the king gives the keys to the kingdom to the prime minister as a sign of authority. Bible study will reveal that once the position of prime minister is vacated a new prime minister is chosen.

 

[Valletta]

According to Rom. 3:24 & Rom. 5:1, justification is a past event for true believers. Show me anywhere in scripture where justification is a PROCESS. I expect you to cite Ja. 2:24, but you would be wrong then, as I've explained many times before what he means by that. Then, you may be confused between justification and sanctification, as most RCC "scholars" are. Justification is unmerited and unconditional - read Rom. 3:24 carefully in its context. The reason why the Protestant concept of justification is different than the RCC, is because we have it right according to the correct meaning of scripture and the RCC has it wrong. If you disagree and don't want to admit that you could be wrong about it, then I think this conversation is over.

Our 4th pope, Clement of Rome, who died around 96 A.D., explained our initial justification:

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.” All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
The Apostolic Fathers, First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Volume 1, Chapter 32.

 

[tdidymas]

Our 4th pope, Clement of Rome, who died around 96 A.D., explained our initial justification:

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.” All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
The Apostolic Fathers, First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Volume 1, Chapter 32.

This statement disagrees with Trent (Canon 9): "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

So then, you agree with Clement and disagree with Trent?

 

[tdidymas]

As to papal succession, Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave him the keys to the kingdom using wording that Jews of the time would realize paralleled Isaiah. In Isaiah, in the Davidic kingdom, the king gives the keys to the kingdom to the prime minister as a sign of authority. Bible study will reveal that once the position of prime minister is vacated a new prime minister is chosen.

Weak argument. If you are assuming that "Rock" is divine, then it's not Peter. Jesus used a play on words in that statement "you are petros, and upon this petra I will build my assembly." But since Jesus is always referred to as the Rock on which we stand (or drink from), Jesus was referring to Himself as "this petra." In Eph. we see that Jesus is the head of the church, not Peter nor any popes. Neither do the Eastern churches recognize the Pope as the head of the church. And when Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot, it was for the original 12, not for any "successors." The RCC is a man-made org with man-made dogmas and man-made traditions. This is not even to mention the many ways that Francis has proved he cannot correctly interpret scripture.

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[jas3]

This statement disagrees with Trent (Canon 9): "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

So then, you agree with Clement and disagree with Trent?

Try reading 1 Clement in its entirety and let us know if you still think he was teaching that "nothing else is required to co-operate" with faith for justification.

If you are assuming that "Rock" is divine, then it's not Peter. Jesus used a play on words in that statement "you are petros, and upon this petra I will build my assembly." But since Jesus is always referred to as the Rock on which we stand (or drink from), Jesus was referring to Himself as the "petra."

We have talked about this before, and I've shown you how a Greek name's gender doesn't make it a different word than the base word. You had no response.

Neither do the Eastern churches recognize the Pope as the head of the church.

Sure they do, as first among equals, even acknowledging unique prerogatives of his, for example the emperor Marcian corresponding with Pope St. Leo about the calling of an ecumenical council to request his blessing. Of course, this level of recognition is not enough to work with the post-schism idea of the pope having universal immediate jurisdiction, but it's much higher than the Protestant view of the papacy.

And when Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot, it was for the original 12, not for any "successors."

It was for the office described in 1 Tim. 3, the episcopate.

 

[Valletta]

Weak argument. If you are assuming that "Rock" is divine, then it's not Peter. Jesus used a play on words in that statement "you are petros, and upon this petra I will build my assembly." But since Jesus is always referred to as the Rock on which we stand (or drink from), Jesus was referring to Himself as "this petra." In Eph. we see that Jesus is the head of the church, not Peter nor any popes. Neither do the Eastern churches recognize the Pope as the head of the church. And when Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot, it was for the original 12, not for any "successors." The RCC is a man-made org with man-made dogmas and man-made traditions. This is not even to mention the many ways that Francis has proved he cannot correctly interpret scripture.

493K views · 14K reactions | Is Catholicism Biblical? | Is Catholicism biblical? To my Christian friends: please have grace and speak truth in love. To my Catholic friends: please understand I speak truth... | By Salim Muslimani | Facebook

Is Catholicism biblical? To my Christian friends: please have grace and speak truth in love. To my Catholic friends: please understand I speak truth...

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"Rock" was used many times in the Bible to refer to God. We know that Jesus renamed Simon as Rock because the Aramaic name "Kepha" (transliterated into Cephas) is found within the mostly Koine Greek text of the Bible. You argue that Jesus was referring to Himself. Remember Jesus foretold of the renaming of Simon. When Jesus did rename Simon Jesus chose the moment when he spoke of building His Church. Jesus said "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church." The renaming and the building upon are all in one sentence. If Jesus was referring to Himself He could have simply said "I am Jesus and upon this rock I will build My Church" and renamed Simon at any other time. But this time was of great importance because Jesus was to give Peter authority by giving Peter the keys to the kingdom. To Peter, and not to any other Apostle. As Catholics have stated so many time, Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church, not the popes or anyone else. There is so much misinformation from strident ant-Catholics. As in the Old Testament, the king of the Davidic kingdom gives the keys to his prime minister as a sign of authority for when the king is absent. The pope is not a king, not even royalty, the pope is a servant who has authority when the king is absent. While many today miss the paralleling of words by Jesus, paralleling Isaiah, that would not be the case for Jews of the time who so revered Holy Scripture:

Isaiah 22: 15-22 15 Thus says the Lord God of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: 16 What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house. 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. RSVCE

Mathias succeed Judas. As in the Old Testament when the prime minister in the Davidic kingdom left the office vacant a new prime minister was chosen. Thus says the Word of God.

 

[tdidymas]

Try reading 1 Clement in its entirety and let us know if you still think he was teaching that "nothing else is required to co-operate" with faith for justification.
We have talked about this before, and I've shown you how a Greek name's gender doesn't make it a different word than the base word. You had no response.
Sure they do, as first among equals, even acknowledging unique prerogatives of his, for example the emperor Marcian corresponding with Pope St. Leo about the calling of an ecumenical council to request his blessing. Of course, this level of recognition is not enough to work with the post-schism idea of the pope having universal immediate jurisdiction, but it's much higher than the Protestant view of the papacy.
It was for the office described in 1 Tim. 3, the episcopate.

I'm not going to argue all this in an endless debate, and it's off topic anyway.

 

[tdidymas]

"Rock" was used many times in the Bible to refer to God. We know that Jesus renamed Simon as Rock because the Aramaic name "Kepha" (transliterated into Cephas) is found within the mostly Koine Greek text of the Bible. You argue that Jesus was referring to Himself. Remember Jesus foretold of the renaming of Simon. When Jesus did rename Simon Jesus chose the moment when he spoke of building His Church. Jesus said "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church." The renaming and the building upon are all in one sentence. If Jesus was referring to Himself He could have simply said "I am Jesus and upon this rock I will build My Church" and renamed Simon at any other time. But this time was of great importance because Jesus was to give Peter authority by giving Peter the keys to the kingdom. To Peter, and not to any other Apostle. As Catholics have stated so many time, Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church, not the popes or anyone else. There is so much misinformation from strident ant-Catholics. As in the Old Testament, the king of the Davidic kingdom gives the keys to his prime minister as a sign of authority for when the king is absent. The pope is not a king, not even royalty, the pope is a servant who has authority when the king is absent. While many today miss the paralleling of words by Jesus, paralleling Isaiah, that would not be the case for Jews of the time who so revered Holy Scripture:

Isaiah 22: 15-22 15 Thus says the Lord God of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: 16 What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house. 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. RSVCE

Mathias succeed Judas. As in the Old Testament when the prime minister in the Davidic kingdom left the office vacant a new prime minister was chosen. Thus says the Word of God.

No, Jesus was speaking of Himself, referring to Peter's statement "You are the Christ".
This is all off topic, and I'm not going to engage in an endless debate with you.

 

[jas3]

I'm not going to argue all this in an endless debate, and it's off topic anyway.

Yes, I'm sure staying on topic is your main concern here.

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, I'm sure staying on topic is your main concern here.

Your response speaks volumes about your desire to argue. Do you pay any attention to the rules? Paul warned Timothy about people who do what you're doing.