The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[BNR32FAN]

I don;t need to read what paul said, Either john was right, or John lied.

The bible can not contradict itself. John can not say one thing, Then paul say somethign else contrary to what John said and vise versa

That’s why you can’t get it right because JOHN NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IF ANYONE LEAVES THE CHURCH. You want to ignore what Paul said because you don’t want to admit that you’re wrong. Paul isn’t contradicting John at all because JOHN NEVER SAID WHAT YOU’RE SAYING. He said THEY WENT OUT FROM US NOT IF ANYONE GOES OUT FROM US. THEY THEY THEY THEY THEY. Can you get the concept of the word THEY thru your head? When does THEY refer to ANYONE OR EVERYONE? THEY REFERS TO A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE NOT ALL PEOPLE. Your problem is you’re not combining what John said and what Paul said TOGETHER to formulate your doctrine. You’re taking what John said and trying to use that TO COMPLETELY CONTRADICT WHAT PAUL SAID. That’s why you always arrive at the idea that Jesus would not deny Paul EVEN THO PAUL SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT HE WOULD. You have to combine the information not eliminate one or arrive at an interpretation that is the exact polar opposite of what Paul wrote.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”

‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

1, If we endure we will raign

2. If we deny, he will deny

3. If we become faithless. he will remain faithful. for he can not deny himself

Deny and faithless are two different things.

To deny, you reject him totally. You deny he even exists.

To be faithless is to lack faith in areas of our lives. But it does not mean we deny him.

He can not deny himself. the promise of eternal life is on him, and his promise, he he takes back eternal life. he in effect deny's himself. because he could not keep his promise

Please for the love of God show me a verse that says that people will receive eternal life because they HAD faith.

“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭22‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, about believers who have lost their ability to produce fruit.

It’s Paul giving a hypothetical scenario about what would happen to him if he had these characteristics but didn’t have love. It’s not about anyone in particular other than someone who doesn’t have love for others. That’s why he keeps saying “IF I”.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

you remind me of another member who is so focused on one thing you can not see past it.

Paul had faith. God saved him, Because GOD KNEW HE HAD TRUE FAITH.

The antichrist never had faith,. God did not save them because he knew their faith was not real.

I am saddened that people do not understand the power and might and knowledge of God. that he thinks God will save someone, and not know later on they will repent back to the world.

God knows everything, He knew it when he saved you..

he can not be fooled

I never said that God can be fooled. I’m quoting Paul saying that he was capable of denying Christ and if he did Christ would deny him. If Paul was a true believer in the year 40AD then denied Christ in 41AD that wouldn’t mean that he wasn’t a true believer in 40AD. If we fall away after becoming a true believer it doesn’t negate the fact that we were once a true believer. God saved Paul because he endured to the end which is exactly what Paul was saying in 2 Timothy 2:12.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

IF WE ENDURE! Of course God knows who will fall away. Those who fall away won’t be saved but they would’ve been saved if they hadn’t fell away. So they lost the salvation they would’ve received if they had remained in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He will deny them

John said they were never of us, if they were, they would never have left. but they left to expose they were never of us

They were never saved my friend.

You do not lose faith in people unless they fail you. Jesus does not fail people. no one who ever recieved or experienced the true gift of salvation and the blessings of God would deny him

They may lose some faith in areas of their lives. or need to have their faith grow in some areas.

but they will never deny him.

Yet Paul specifically said that both he and Timothy could deny Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

here we go

Paul said they are predestined, that is not a calvinist view. they have a faulty view of what this means

Jesus did not say everyone would be saved, He said those who look to the cross and believe. they will be born again, never perish, and have eternal life

And paul said he would complete the work. he did not say he might complete the work. he did not say as long as we let him, He said he will complete it.

Paul was confident in this, why are you not confident in this?

I am..

Oh so when a teacher says I’m confident you’re going to ace the test that’s a guarantee that the students are going to ace the test?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh dear, and where does it say, "lost their ability to produce fruit"?

I wonder if he’s even reading the passage. It’s Paul giving hypothetical situations of himself, it’s not about anyone in particular. It’s Paul saying if I did this or if I had this but I didn’t have love then it wouldn’t be of any benefit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Foreknowledge (Gr: prognosis) is used only of God foreseeing his own actions (because it is he who has decreed them), it is not used of God foreseeing man's actions.

Yeah we’ve been thru this before. What it equates to is God choosing us according to His choosing us which is circular and doesn’t make any sense at all. God chose us according to His foreknowledge of choosing us is what it amounts to. It’s gibberish that doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well it’s about what is needed to be saved in addition to faith. Paul is giving a hypothetical scenario about if he were to have these characteristics but he didn’t have love, one of which being faith. If he had the gifts of prophecy, if he had all faith, and if he gave everything he owned even his very body but didn’t have love none of it would save him.

Being without love is being without God because God is Love. The Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) doctrine just ignores the need to love one's neighbour as oneself and it ignores loving God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength. OSAS is a deception that cannot fail to mislead those who accept it. It is a danger them and their souls.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Foreknowledge (Gr: prognosis) is used only of God foreseeing his own actions (because it is he who has decreed them), it is not used of God foreseeing man's actions.

I am sure that you must suspect that your claim is not true.

You have searched me, Lord, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.​

​

Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'​

​

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.​

​

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.​

They all look like God does foresee what people do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh dear, and where does it say, "lost their ability to produce fruit"?

Titus 3: 14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

Phil 2 work out your own salvation - 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Titus 1: 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Gal 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law

I can go on and on, Our good works, shining a light, is to draw people to Christ. Our fruit is those we reach, and bear something in them, be it growth, be it them praising God. be it them comming to Christ.

if we do things which puts out our light. then we can not bear fruit. It does not mean we are no longer saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Abiding in Christ means remaining in the faith.

which is a work, because it is your power. not God.

God keep me, why do you think God will not keep you. who is your faith in?

And again as usual you only focus on one tiny piece of scripture at a time instead of taking into consideration all scripture because Paul said that the Galatians had received the Holy Spirit in chapter 3. He also said that they were running well in chapter 5 and that they had departed from the gospel in chapter 1. Not to mention that they can’t be severed from Christ or have fallen from grace if they were never joined to Christ and grace was never bestowed upon them. So you saying that they never trusted in Christ isn’t supported by the rest of the epistle. It’s no wonder why you can’t understand the truth because you don’t know the scriptures. You know bits and pieces and that’s why you can’t put it all together properly to get a full understanding of what’s actually taking place. You need more study so that you can comprehend everything that is happening before you try to make interpretations. This happens to everyone, every single one of us has to go thru this. We read parts of the Bible and try to get an idea of what’s being said and we formulate an idea, then we come to another passage that conflicts with that idea and we have to reevaluate it in order to incorporate the new information we didn’t have the first time we contemplated what was being said. You just need to keep studying and keep fine tuning your understanding of the scriptures but you have to have an open mind and no preconceived notions about it otherwise you’re not going to understand what’s being said because you’re too busy trying to conform it to comply with your preconceived notions. You have to just let go and let the scriptures say what they say and accept them for what they say otherwise you’re never going to fully understand it. It takes time my friend.

my friend. Scripture can not contradict itself.

two passages of scripture can not appose each other.

Any person who has been given the gospel has been given grace
any person who is in our churches, has received grace.
any person who hears and knows the truth of God and seen Gods blessing of those who have been born of him, has been given grace.

if they do not react to what they are given (grace) by repenting and receiving this grace gift.

They have fallen from Grace.

its not rocket science

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The blinding has already happened and is happening now.

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭25‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul isn’t talking about a future blindness, God hardened the hearts of those who refused to believe during Christ’s ministry. That’s why Jesus spoke in parables and why some were not permitted to understand. God is doing the same thing to them that He did to Pharaoh, Pharaoh was disobedient so God hardened his heart because of his disobedience in order to use him to accomplish His plan that not only would Pharaoh allow them to leave but the Egyptians were going to beg them to leave and even pay the Israelites to leave with articles of silver and gold and precious stones. He also used Pharaoh as an example to the whole world to show that no matter how powerful a man is, he is no match for God. In a similar manner God has hardened some of the Israelites who refuse to accept Christ in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion and to scatter them abroad taking away their temple and leaving them abandoned while He turns His attention to the Gentiles so that the Israelites will long for His return to them. This is why Jesus said in John 6 “no one can come to Me unless The Father draws him” and personally I think this might by why Jesus said “forgive them Father for they know not what they do”, because they were partially hardened in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion. This is often referred to as the judicial hardening of the Jews which I happen to agree with because it makes a lot of sense when you read passages like Mark 4:11-12

“And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This idea of a judicial hardening of the Jews makes sense when you’re trying to understand why Jesus wouldn’t want these Jews to understand and return and be forgiven. And to me it makes sense why He said “forgive them for they know not what they do” because they weren’t allowed to understand in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion. They hardened their hearts so God hardened their hearts and used them to bring about His plan of salvation for all men. Now how they will be saved, I don’t know. While Jesus was dead for 3 days He went and preached to “spirits in prison” who were disobedient during the time of Noah. Maybe these Israelites will have an opportunity to hear and understand the gospel, I don’t know. But I feel like if they had been hardened in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion and they were not permitted to understand because of their disobedience then I think that God might give these people a chance for salvation. I’m not saying He will but I think it’s a plausible scenario.

lol.

They are blinded in part today (just look in Jerusalem and how they cry at a wall which is not even part of the temple. They still in part have rejected the gospel and Christ.

But I personally know jews who have repented, who have come to christ, who have been restored. Who are also praying for their people to repent.

The amazing thing is, God in the OT said they would repent and be restored.

Paul said they will all be saved and he even tells us when.

Now you do with this what you will. but I will praise God. he keeps his promises

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In your top post it appeared that you were implying that ALL ISRAEL will be saved according to Romans 11:26

romans 11: 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

This is when it will happen, and it is what will happen.
The blindness in part will end at that time, what happens next?

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

the word so is taken from the greek houtos - It means in this way, in this manner,

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

1. Notice, it says Their, not our. They are Israel
2. It will come when jesus comes to Zion - When he returns, this is exactly where he will come

I have multiple OT prophesies which say this very thing, that he will take away their sins, they will continue in their sins no more. they will be in their land etc etc.

It again, is not rocket science

since you capitalized that portion in bold letters. I quoted Romans 9:6-8 to point out that “All Israel” doesn’t literally mean all of the Israelites will be saved. Paul was talking about individuals in Romans 11 not entire nations. I’ve said that multiple times in this thread.

It does not matter if I capitalized or not

Romans 9 is about salvation and Gods promise that all the nations of the world will be blessed. In this promise, there is no iSrael., we are all part of abrahams children.

Romans 11 is about Gods promise to a nation. Is God done with them (as sadly many churches today say they are) the answer is no. they will be restored. and we should not boast..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well it’s about what is needed to be saved in addition to faith.

Nothing

Paul is giving a hypothetical scenario about if he were to have these characteristics but he didn’t have love, one of which being faith. If he had the gifts of prophecy, if he had all faith, and if he gave everything he owned even his very body but didn’t have love none of it would save him.

Yes, If he did all those things, But did not have love. we probably would not even know his name

But this is not talking about his salvation. it is talking about his works he was created to do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You seem to have forgotten the entire argument. I never once throughout this entire discussion said that John was referring to true believers in that passage. What have I been saying this entire time?


I gave a list of plausible definitions of the term “of us” and not one of them included true believers. You missed the entire point of all of my posts concerning 1 John 2:19.

HE’S TALKING ABOUT A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO LEFT THE CHURCH NOT ABOUT EVERYONE WHO LEAVES THE CHURCH.

actually no. You said I misquoted John when I said they left the church

No John didn’t say that at all, you’re misquoting him.

that specific group of people ARE ANTICHRIST. THEY ARE THOSE WHO DENY CHRIST!!!

So you continually saying we can deny Christ and lose salvation IS IN ERROR

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That’s why you can’t get it right because JOHN NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IF ANYONE LEAVES THE CHURCH.

see there you go again. Saying exactly what you just said in the last post I responded to you did not say

can you make up your mind?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Please for the love of God show me a verse that says that people will receive eternal life because they HAD faith.

lol

John 3: 15 that whoever believes in Him (HAS FAITH) should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (HAS FAITH) should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes (HAS FAITH) in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6: 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him (has faith) may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I mean really my friend.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s Paul giving a hypothetical scenario about what would happen to him if he had these characteristics but didn’t have love.

Yes, If he did not have love, everything he did would be fruitless.

the same goes for any of us..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I never said that God can be fooled. I’m quoting Paul saying that he was capable of denying Christ and if he did Christ would deny him. If Paul was a true believer in the year 40AD then denied Christ in 41AD that wouldn’t mean that he wasn’t a true believer in 40AD. If we fall away after becoming a true believer it doesn’t negate the fact that we were once a true believer. God saved Paul because he endured to the end which is exactly what Paul was saying in 2 Timothy 2:12.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

IF WE ENDURE! Of course God knows who will fall away. Those who fall away won’t be saved but they would’ve been saved if they hadn’t fell away. So they lost the salvation they would’ve received if they had remained in Christ.

there you go. Focused.

Dude, your trying to earn salvation

All i can say is good luck on your travel. God promises to give you rest. but for some reason, you do not want to recieve it, you want to keep on working.

Best of luck to you.