The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[Xeno.of.athens]

You make the real Xeno look like a genius. . .

What a lovely thing to write about me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh so Judas will be saved then?

Judas died already, he will not be alive then

Caiaphas and the rest of the Pharisees will be saved as well

They are dead also. they had their chance. and lost it.

again, I must ask, what are you reading. It says when this time is completed. All israel (all who are alive on earth at that time0 will be saved.

? Paul absolutely did say that the Jews will be grafted back in IF they turn from their unbelief.
“And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Which is what happens on that day, the OT is full of prophecies which state that very fact.

You need to go back to what he just said two chapters ago to understand what he means by “Israel”.

This would be a mistake. because 2 chapters ago he was arguing against the argument that All Israel is saved because of birthright.

“But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again Context.

This is in response to the jewish lie that they are automatically saved.. Thats what Romans 9 and 10 is about

Romans 11 is about the argument That God is done wiht Israel. Where he seperates saved and unsaved isreal from any gentile saved of not..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree and 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 makes that clear.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

this is talking about believers.

Not the lost.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

this is talking about believers.

Yes, it is, you got it right, it is about believers who fall from grace.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Congratulations you’ve just proven what I’ve been saying the entire time. John is talking about people who were never Christians. He isn’t talking about anyone who leaves the church,

Congratulations, You just proved what I was saying

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;

who is us? the church.

he’s only referring to a specific type of people who leave the church

yes, and those specific people he called antichrists. and he defined them, it is those who deny christ.

and if you’d stop ignoring what Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 2:12 you’d see that because we know for a fact that Paul was a true believer and he specifically said that he was capable of denying Christ and if he did Christ would deny him. And your preposterous idea that Paul would still be saved even if he lost his faith and denied Christ directly contacts what he said that Christ would do. You can’t even read two verses that are back to back without conjuring up an interpretation that doesn’t contradict the previous statement. It’s like you’re so focused on trying to make verse 13 say what you want that you completely forgot what verse 12 said.

I don;t need to read what paul said, Either john was right, or John lied.

The bible can not contradict itself. John can not say one thing, Then paul say somethign else contrary to what John said and vise versa

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Your interpretation of verse 13 has Paul being acknowledged by Christ before The Father when Paul specifically said the exact opposite would happen. I don’t understand how you can’t see this huge error you’re making. And if Christ can deny Paul then obviously your interpretation of 1 John 2:19 can’t be valid because we know for a fact that Paul was a true believer.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”

‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

1, If we endure we will raign

2. If we deny, he will deny

3. If we become faithless. he will remain faithful. for he can not deny himself

Deny and faithless are two different things.

To deny, you reject him totally. You deny he even exists.

To be faithless is to lack faith in areas of our lives. But it does not mean we deny him.

He can not deny himself. the promise of eternal life is on him, and his promise, he he takes back eternal life. he in effect deny's himself. because he could not keep his promise

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, it is, you got it right, it is about believers who fall from grace.

No, about believers who have lost their ability to produce fruit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And so then Paul could not deny Christ and Christ could not deny him? Because if that’s what you’re saying here you are again saying the exact opposite of what Paul actually wrote. No matter how you try to twist it, it doesn’t work because eternal security is not a sound doctrine. Look at how hard you have to try to twist the word of God to support it. You’re having to resort to an interpretation that is the exact opposite of what Paul said in that passage. Your biggest problem is that you’re allowing your doctrines to dictate the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to dictate your doctrines. That’s why you keep having to try to hammer this square peg into a round hole and it just never fits no matter how hard you try to force it in there.

you remind me of another member who is so focused on one thing you can not see past it.

Paul had faith. God saved him, Because GOD KNEW HE HAD TRUE FAITH.

The antichrist never had faith,. God did not save them because he knew their faith was not real.

I am saddened that people do not understand the power and might and knowledge of God. that he thinks God will save someone, and not know later on they will repent back to the world.

God knows everything, He knew it when he saved you..

he can not be fooled

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your issue is with Ro 11:23, not me.

Your issue is with romans 11: 25 and 26 not me.

all romans 11: 23 says is if they repent they can get saved, just like if we repent we can get saved.


romans 11: 25 and 26 says at this time, all who are Israel will repent. and they will get saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And Romans 9:6-8.

Nope. totally different context.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And what did He say He would do to those who deny Him?

He will deny them

John said they were never of us, if they were, they would never have left. but they left to expose they were never of us

They were never saved my friend.

You do not lose faith in people unless they fail you. Jesus does not fail people. no one who ever recieved or experienced the true gift of salvation and the blessings of God would deny him

They may lose some faith in areas of their lives. or need to have their faith grow in some areas.

but they will never deny him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

“For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all.” That’s what he said in the next sentence. Yeah Paul has confidence in them, he never said that they are guaranteed to remain in Christ. If Paul actually taught eternal security then he could’ve just left out the part about being confident. I can tell my daughter that I’m confident that she’s going to ace the text, it doesn’t mean that she’s guaranteed to ace it.

For many are called but few are chosen. So you’re a Calvinist now? God predestines people to salvation? No, we are chosen according to His foreknowledge 1 Peter 1:1-2. We are chosen according to His foreknowledge of what? What has God foreseen in us that He has chosen us according to? Perhaps He chose those who will abide in Christ and endure to the end.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Does this mean everyone is saved because He loves everyone? Or do you think that He doesn’t love everyone?

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

here we go

Paul said they are predestined, that is not a calvinist view. they have a faulty view of what this means

Jesus did not say everyone would be saved, He said those who look to the cross and believe. they will be born again, never perish, and have eternal life

And paul said he would complete the work. he did not say he might complete the work. he did not say as long as we let him, He said he will complete it.

Paul was confident in this, why are you not confident in this?

I am..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Foreknowledge (Gr: prognosis) is used only of God foreseeing his own actions (because it is he who has decreed them), it is not used of God foreseeing man's actions.

Foreknowledge is God knowing the will of God. that whoever sees and believes will never perish and have eternal life

God knew who would and who would not do this in eternity past. As David said, you knew me before I was concieved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why does this matter so much to you?

Because he has to hold his belief that people can walk away from God and lose salvation..

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, about believers who have lost their ability to produce fruit.

Oh dear, and where does it say, "lost their ability to produce fruit"?

 

[BNR32FAN]

abiding and enduring are works. If your doing it to stay saved.

The galations did not lose their salvation. They never trusted Christ. They had at best a mere believe and was trying something new. but their faith was always in the law. which is why it was so easy for the law to pry them back.

Abiding in Christ means remaining in the faith. And again as usual you only focus on one tiny piece of scripture at a time instead of taking into consideration all scripture because Paul said that the Galatians had received the Holy Spirit in chapter 3. He also said that they were running well in chapter 5 and that they had departed from the gospel in chapter 1. Not to mention that they can’t be severed from Christ or have fallen from grace if they were never joined to Christ and grace was never bestowed upon them. So you saying that they never trusted in Christ isn’t supported by the rest of the epistle. It’s no wonder why you can’t understand the truth because you don’t know the scriptures. You know bits and pieces and that’s why you can’t put it all together properly to get a full understanding of what’s actually taking place. You need more study so that you can comprehend everything that is happening before you try to make interpretations. This happens to everyone, every single one of us has to go thru this. We read parts of the Bible and try to get an idea of what’s being said and we formulate an idea, then we come to another passage that conflicts with that idea and we have to reevaluate it in order to incorporate the new information we didn’t have the first time we contemplated what was being said. You just need to keep studying and keep fine tuning your understanding of the scriptures but you have to have an open mind and no preconceived notions about it otherwise you’re not going to understand what’s being said because you’re too busy trying to conform it to comply with your preconceived notions. You have to just let go and let the scriptures say what they say and accept them for what they say otherwise you’re never going to fully understand it. It takes time my friend.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They are dead also. they had their chance. and lost it.

again, I must ask, what are you reading. It says when this time is completed. All israel (all who are alive on earth at that time0 will be saved.

The blinding has already happened and is happening now.

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭25‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul isn’t talking about a future blindness, God hardened the hearts of those who refused to believe during Christ’s ministry. That’s why Jesus spoke in parables and why some were not permitted to understand. God is doing the same thing to them that He did to Pharaoh, Pharaoh was disobedient so God hardened his heart because of his disobedience in order to use him to accomplish His plan that not only would Pharaoh allow them to leave but the Egyptians were going to beg them to leave and even pay the Israelites to leave with articles of silver and gold and precious stones. He also used Pharaoh as an example to the whole world to show that no matter how powerful a man is, he is no match for God. In a similar manner God has hardened some of the Israelites who refuse to accept Christ in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion and to scatter them abroad taking away their temple and leaving them abandoned while He turns His attention to the Gentiles so that the Israelites will long for His return to them. This is why Jesus said in John 6 “no one can come to Me unless The Father draws him” and personally I think this might by why Jesus said “forgive them Father for they know not what they do”, because they were partially hardened in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion. This is often referred to as the judicial hardening of the Jews which I happen to agree with because it makes a lot of sense when you read passages like Mark 4:11-12

“And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This idea of a judicial hardening of the Jews makes sense when you’re trying to understand why Jesus wouldn’t want these Jews to understand and return and be forgiven. And to me it makes sense why He said “forgive them for they know not what they do” because they weren’t allowed to understand in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion. They hardened their hearts so God hardened their hearts and used them to bring about His plan of salvation for all men. Now how they will be saved, I don’t know. While Jesus was dead for 3 days He went and preached to “spirits in prison” who were disobedient during the time of Noah. Maybe these Israelites will have an opportunity to hear and understand the gospel, I don’t know. But I feel like if they had been hardened in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion and they were not permitted to understand because of their disobedience then I think that God might give these people a chance for salvation. I’m not saying He will but I think it’s a plausible scenario.

 

[BNR32FAN]

romans 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

There is no if. It is a when, and we are told when..

This would be a mistake. because 2 chapters ago he was arguing against the argument that All Israel is saved because of birthright.

Again Context.

This is in response to the jewish lie that they are automatically saved.. Thats what Romans 9 and 10 is about

Romans 11 is about the argument That God is done wiht Israel. Where he seperates saved and unsaved isreal from any gentile saved of not..

In your top post it appeared that you were implying that ALL ISRAEL will be saved according to Romans 11:26 since you capitalized that portion in bold letters. I quoted Romans 9:6-8 to point out that “All Israel” doesn’t literally mean all of the Israelites will be saved. Paul was talking about individuals in Romans 11 not entire nations. I’ve said that multiple times in this thread.

 

[BNR32FAN]

this is talking about believers.

Not the lost.

Yep

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, it is, you got it right, it is about believers who fall from grace.

Well it’s about what is needed to be saved in addition to faith. Paul is giving a hypothetical scenario about if he were to have these characteristics but he didn’t have love, one of which being faith. If he had the gifts of prophecy, if he had all faith, and if he gave everything he owned even his very body but didn’t have love none of it would save him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Congratulations, You just proved what I was saying

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;

who is us? the church.

You seem to have forgotten the entire argument. I never once throughout this entire discussion said that John was referring to true believers in that passage. What have I been saying this entire time?

And again you keep quoting 1 John 2:19 out of context. He said “THEY WENT OUT FROM US”. He didn’t say “if anyone goes out from us”. John was talking about a SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE. The word “THEY” never implies everyone or anyone, it’s always used in reference to a specific group of people. Furthermore the word “WENT” is used in the past tense which is another indication that he’s talking about a specific group of people who at some point in the past left the church. NOTHING IN THAT PASSAGE GIVES ANY INDICATION THAT HE IS REFERRING TO ANYONE IN THE PRESENT OR FUTURE OR ANYONE OTHER THAN WHO HE IS SPECIFICALLY REFERRING TO. He said these people left the church because they were not “OF US” and you extrapolate that statement into saying that “if anyone leaves the church they were never of us” when that’s not what he wrote at all. And you also have to make an assumption of what he meant by the words “OF US”. Maybe they were never professing believers, maybe they were Judaizers, maybe they were false professors, maybe they were not sent from the apostles, or maybe they were not of those who persevere and endure to the end. There are really a huge number of possibilities the term “OF US” could mean, not that it really matters because he isn’t talking about anyone in the present or future or anyone other than that specific group of people.

I gave a list of plausible definitions of the term “of us” and not one of them included true believers. You missed the entire point of all of my posts concerning 1 John 2:19.

HE’S TALKING ABOUT A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO LEFT THE CHURCH NOT ABOUT EVERYONE WHO LEAVES THE CHURCH.