A Scriptural perspective on faith and works

[Jo555]

We recall this teaching from the prophet Ezekiel

21 But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. 22 I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. 23 Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? 24 But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. 25 And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse?

26 For when the just turneth himself away from his justice, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therein: in the injustice that he hath wrought he shall die. 27 And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth and turneth away himself from all his iniquities which he hath wrought, he shall surely live, and not die. 29 And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? 30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin.

As Catholics, we are often accused of earning our salvation by works, but that is not true.
We teach what the Gospel teaches in the words of Our Lord, if any man follow after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and begin to follow in my footsteps.
Jesus Himself says to store up treasures in heaven for ourselves. We do that by good works in following His commands and mortifying our flesh.

Do those works save us? Not according to Ezekiel. The works are already performed, past tense. If we were an employee, a wage would be owed. We are not employees, yet followers. If we follow and obey, we look forward to our reward in heaven. Our flesh is weak, as we deny ourselves, God gives us the grace to build virtue.

We can destroy that relationship by turning from righteousness and committing mortal sin. God says He will remember our righteous works no more and we will die in our sins. The works we have done cannot save us.

Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. We have blessed assurance as we continue in the path of righteousness. We continue that path by faith. To act sinfully would be to act contrary to faith. God redeems sinners, He does not redeem or wink at sin.


You may say, Ezekiel is Old Testament, but Hebrews reflects the same teaching

​

​ 36 For patience is necessary for you; that, doing the will of God, you may receive the promise. 37 For yet a little and a very little while, and he that is to come, will come, and will not delay. 38 But my just man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul. 39 But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul.

By this reasoning, faith is doing and continuing in good works, which is Catholic teaching according to scripture. It is a breach of faith to cease in well doing and withdraw unto perdition.


Simple works of faith are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. These works can only be done in faith, as a natural man would view them as absurd. Do not let Satan keep you from doing good works of faith

Hi. I'm not hear to debate salvation by faith or works, but i will share that i am also of the conviction that works is a byproduct of faith.

That said, it really is about following the Lord's Spirit and seeing where and how He may connect us.

Sometimes we have to shake off our own feelings of complacency and take a leap of faith. When we do we can find that our hearts become engaged with the situation and his Spirit leads us within out of his love. If nothing happens, it may just be that we are either trying to make something happen on our own, or we weren't called to that specific situation. Maybe we just aren't equipped to physically help, but we can pray with an engaged heart.

Just don't look to engage your heart on your own. If his Spirit lives in you, you will grieve for what grieves Him and such.

On another note, one day i was in my room asking the Lord to feel his presence. This went on for awhile. Grew frustrated that He appeared to be ignoring me so i got up and just began to watch a movie with my roomie and chat and fellowship.

Afterward, I went back to my room expecting nothing from God. Wasn't even thinking of it, but his presence hit me like nearly immediately after entering my room.

I got the message. He wanted me to spend time with my roomie who needed that at the time instead of seeking Him for his presence for my own pleasure.

Another time in life i remember how hungering for God became the thing. All these songs about longing for God and such. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. That is good and scriptural, but man, it was just painful as the stress was to keep pressing in and that the pain is good because we are hungering for God and He will show up.

I'm not saying there is no truth in that. There is, but it appeared like we were being taught to try and make that happen of ourselves.

I gave it up because nothing happened and it just became too painful, then you can beat yourself up for failing to see fruit.

Not too long after that i fell in love with a dvd with worship songs that were all focused on God and how beautiful and wonderful and awesome He was. Next thing i knew i am caught up in a personal, Spiritual revival. The Lord used it to get my eyes off of me and on Him and sweep me up in a spiritual revival.

To be honest, not real sure it was that or the new group i joined and the Lord wanting to use my gifts there. Suspect a bit of both. I do feel the dvd had a role in it because i felt Him using it to work something good in me.

Point being, listen to how the Lord would lead you personally. Don't try and make something happen on your own, but unless He tells you otherwise, you can test the waters and take that leap of faith and see how He may engage you and lead you by his Spirit.

We can take Jesus teaching and regard them just like the letter of the law, or we can let Him lead us into a beautiful dance with his Spirit.

Just my take on following after his Spirit. I personally believe works is a byproduct of faith, but not here to debate that today. Just sharing on following after his Spirit in regards to Christian living as i think we are speaking of that too.

 

[Jo555]

Hi. I'm not hear to debate salvation by faith or works, but i will share that i am also of the conviction that works is a byproduct of faith.

That said, it really is about following the Lord's Spirit and seeing where and how He may connect us.

Sometimes we have to shake off our own feelings of complacency and take a leap of faith. When we do we can find that our hearts become engaged with the situation and his Spirit leads us within out of his love. If nothing happens, it may just be that we are either trying to make something happen on our own, or we weren't called to that specific situation. Maybe we just aren't equipped to physically help, but we can pray with an engaged heart.

Just don't look to engage your heart on your own. If his Spirit lives in you, you will grieve for what grieves Him and such.

On another note, one day i was in my room asking the Lord to feel his presence. This went on for awhile. Grew frustrated that He appeared to be ignoring me so i got up and just began to watch a movie with my roomie and chat and fellowship.

Afterward, I went back to my room expecting nothing from God. Wasn't even thinking of it, but his presence hit me like nearly immediately after entering my room.

I got the message. He wanted me to spend time with my roomie who needed that at the time instead of seeking Him for his presence for my own pleasure.

Another time in life i remember how hungering for God became the thing. All these songs about longing for God and such. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. That is good and scriptural, but man, it was just painful as the stress was to keep pressing in and that the pain is good because we are hungering for God and He will show up.

I'm not saying there is no truth in that. There is, but it appeared like we were being taught to try and make that happen of ourselves.

I gave it up because nothing happened and it just became too painful, then you can beat yourself up for failing to see fruit.

Not too long after that i fell in love with a dvd with worship songs that were all focused on God and how beautiful and wonderful and awesome He was. Next thing i knew i am caught up in a personal, Spiritual revival. The Lord used it to get my eyes off of me and on Him and sweep me up in a spiritual revival.

To be honest, not real sure it was that or the new group i joined and the Lord wanting to use my gifts there. Suspect a bit of both. I do feel the dvd had a role in it because i felt Him using it to work something good in me.

Point being, listen to how the Lord would lead you personally. Don't try and make something happen on your own, but unless He tells you otherwise, you can test the waters and take that leap of faith and see how He may engage you and lead you by his Spirit.

We can take Jesus teaching and regard them just like the letter of the law, or we can let Him lead us into a beautiful dance with his Spirit.

Just my take on following after his Spirit. I personally believe works is a byproduct of faith, but not here to debate that today. Just sharing on following after his Spirit in regards to Christian living as i think we are speaking of that too.

And these aren't rules, like don't seek his presence, seek it; move, don't move, etc. It's about staying sensitive to how His Spirit is leading you personally for He knows where each of us are at and what He is doing regarding the bigger picture.

Sometimes Moses had to seek God for direction. At the Red Sea God was like, "Why you seeking me about this? Use what i equipped you with."

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

From cover to cover, the Catechism includes copious references to the Bible supporting Catholic doctrines, including those not taught explicitly therein. In addition to this, it cites popes, early Christian writers, and Church councils to demonstrate a continuity of doctrine that stretches all the way back to the apostles and ultimately to Christ himself.

The Pharisees of old, and the orthodox Jews of today, kept and keep large amounts of writings which include "copious references to the Bible supporting" their "doctrines, including those not taught" "therein. In addition to" that, their writings cite many authorities "to demonstrate a continuity of doctrine" that they say "stretches all the way back to" Moses "and ultimately to God Himself."

Interesting parallel.

 

[Michie]

The Pharisees of old, and the orthodox Jews of today, kept and keep large amounts of writings which include "copious references to the Bible supporting" their "doctrines, including those not taught" "therein. In addition to" that, their writings cite many authorities "to demonstrate a continuity of doctrine" that they say "stretches all the way back to" Moses "and ultimately to God Himself."

Interesting parallel.

No ridiculous parallel. You know very little of the Church you are so against but you are free to carry on in your ignorance and slander your brethren in Christ. Your choice.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

When I was in Protestant circles, I frequently heard the refrain that our righteousness is as filthy rags and our works were of no value
They said that we can never be perfect so we don’t teach to live a life free from sin rather encourage more worship and just believe your salvation. Many would have private sins that they claimed they could not be free, but were relying on the sovereignty of God or some other.
This is not what scripture says.

Scripture says to pursue holiness without which no one will see the Lord. We are told to fight the good fight of faith and to be perfect as God is perfect. We are told to ask, seek and knock. Fighting, pursuing, asking, seeking knocking those are words of action and require work. No where does scripture say to just mouth the words I believe and do nothing. If you say it does then you are not rightly dividing the words of truth.

As for sin, God redeems sinners, He does not overlook continuing sin. When we are born again , God transforms us, we are dead to sin and can no longer live any longer therein. The apostle John explains it

1 John 3:7-10 ·


Those who are begotten by God commit no sin.


Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the Devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the Devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.



If anyone tells you that we do not have to work to get into heaven is lying, plain and simple. The works we do are not of ourselves. Grace is given by God which cannot be achieved through human effort alone. The virtues given by God at baptism are Faith, Hope and Charity, not faith alone. 1 Cor 13 and James tell us all about it
If it seems to hard or overwhelming, we do not make it easy by denying that God said it

As Catholics, we realize our human frailty, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We go to confession because scripture says to confess our sins one to another, and it records that Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sin, so we confess to a priest that has the anointing of the Apostles passed down by the laying on of hands.

We also take the Eucharist because it is the body and blood of Jesus by His own words. When we consume Him as He commands His seed abides in us and we cannot sin. The sacrament is only effective if received worthily as Paul says, if it is received unworthily we would heap condemnation on ourselves

God gives us free will, and He does not compel us to follow Him. He asks us to love Him. If you love Him, you will keep His commandments and work for the kingdom of God, and you can say with Paul that the work that I do is by the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me, or you can go with the scoffers who continue absurd arguments that we are not saved by works so we are not working. God help them to repent

Have you felt the power of God that keeps you from sinning? When I listened to those that said I did not have to work, I didn’t. I felt trapped in sin, but I believed in Jesus and people kept telling me I was saved, but I knew something was missing

It was when I stopped scoffing and gave myself completely to Jesus in His one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, that the sin that so easily beset me was gone. Once I knew that, I could never go back to scoffing. So scoff all you want, I don’t care anymore. All I know is that God is real, salvation has real power, His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink. He has granted me the peace that passes understanding, and He invites you to have the same.
Rev 3:20. He stands at the door and knocks, He asks you to open the door, He does not force Himself in, and when you open the door, He will eat with you and you with Him. Opening, and eating are doing things, not just imagination

Keep scoffing, or repent, it’s your choice, I have made mine

 

[Jo555]

No one should be scoffing, but grieved if they believe you are in error.

It does really boil down to the heart. From my belief, if you are performing works to be saved, then you are counting on works instead of grace and you have been cut off from grace.

If you are a believer, by grace through faith and you are performing works as an expression of that faith, then i see no contradiction to saved by grace through faith.

So are you counting on grace through faith, or works? Works go hand-in-hand with faith, but it is an expression of that faith, a byproduct.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Pharisees of old, and the orthodox Jews of today, kept and keep large amounts of writings which include "copious references to the Bible supporting" their "doctrines, including those not taught" "therein. In addition to" that, their writings cite many authorities "to demonstrate a continuity of doctrine" that they say "stretches all the way back to" Moses "and ultimately to God Himself."

Interesting parallel.

Satan is still at work using the same lies and completely fooling first the Jew then the gentile

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No ridiculous parallel. You know very little of the Church you are so against but you are free to carry on in your ignorance and slander your brethren in Christ. Your choice.

Actually it is a huge parallel. It makes me wonder why we did not learn from the mistake of the first called if god and went and did the same thin

Ps it’s not slander when it is true

 

[Jo555]

Also, i see nothing wrong with expressions of devotions, etc. I don't know much about any specific religion. Very little, but with my pea size, little knowledge of catholics, I've always admired some of their expressions of devotion, but felt they had an unhealthy fixation on Mary, but who of us doesn't need work. Just saying.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No one should be scoffing, but grieved if they believe you are in error.

It does really boil down to the heart. From my belief, if you are performing works to be saved, then you are counting on works instead of grace and you have been cut off from grace.

If you are a believer, by grace through faith and you are performing works as an expression of that faith, then i see no contradiction to saved by grace through faith.

So are you counting on grace through faith, or works? Works go hand-in-hand with faith, but it is an expression of that faith, a byproduct.

Bingo

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Also, i see nothing wrong with expressions of devotions, etc. I don't know much about any specific religion. Very little, but with my pea size, little knowledge of catholics, I've always admired some of their expressions of devotion, but felt they had an unhealthy fixation on Mary, but who of us doesn't need work. Just saying.

The big question is the gospel

Works adorn the gospel they are not part of it.

If one is working to merit salvation they have misread the gospel

If one is working to merit then deny that this is what they are doing then they have misread not only the gospel but the truth of what they are doing

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I'll encourage you to learn that which Christ the Lord has said about all swearing of vows. And of European feudalism, most of all its religious basis.

Don’t really understand your point. God rules a kingdom, not a democracy
John 8 says he who commits sin is a slave to sin
Romans 6 says we are slaves to righteousness
Christ says the greatest way is the way of a servant, and He tells us in order to follow Him, we must deny ourselves and take up our cross
He desires obedience rather than sacrifice. Obedience to His word, that gives His authority to Peter upon whom He built His Church.

We offer our bodies as a living sacrifice. All of scripture points to submission. It is the lie of Satan that we have autonomy. “Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” I am constantly tempted in that direction. I deny myself and follow His Church

Scripture says I should, you say I should not, whom should I believe ?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

No one should be scoffing, but grieved if they believe you are in error.

It does really boil down to the heart. From my belief, if you are performing works to be saved, then you are counting on works instead of grace and you have been cut off from grace.

If you are a believer, by grace through faith and you are performing works as an expression of that faith, then i see no contradiction to saved by grace through faith.

So are you counting on grace through faith, or works? Works go hand-in-hand with faith, but it is an expression of that faith, a byproduct.

God help you, as you do not see the irony of what you are saying. Protestantism says that we are not saved by works, yet they preach works all the time. Say the sinners prayer? That’s a work. Confess with your mouth? That’s a work
Go and preach the gospel, that’s a work. Plant churches, those are works

What does scripture say? Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. God already built His Church on Peter, 2000 years ago, but Protestantism by definition says God did not do a good job, He needs human effort to build what He could not

That is great plan to invent all these new works to organize and accuse God’s Church of preaching salvation by works. It is diabolical that diabolical means divisive, yes schism is diabolical in its divisiveness. What are we up to now? 38,000 denominations?
What does scripture say? Is Christ divided? God forbid! There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one forgiveness of sins. God’s Church has the marks of unity which are One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. What are you fighting for?

Submission does not feel good, humility does not feel good, our flesh wars with the spirit, but unless you deny yourself, you are not on the path of life. To any that accuse the Catholic Church, your accusations are true and will not be denied, but you have to remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. The servants wants to destroy the tares and risk damaging the wheat. God said no, let them both grow till harvest. The presence of tares in the field does not discredit the one who originally planted it. We grow around the tares and pray for their conversion. We do not take matters into our own hands against God’s advice by trying to build a new church

 

[Jo555]

God help you, as you do not see the irony of what you are saying. Protestantism says that we are not saved by works, yet they preach works all the time. Say the sinners prayer? That’s a work. Confess with your mouth? That’s a work
Go and preach the gospel, that’s a work. Plant churches, those are works

What does scripture say? Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. God already built His Church on Peter, 2000 years ago, but Protestantism by definition says God did not do a good job, He needs human effort to build what He could not

That is great plan to invent all these new works to organize and accuse God’s Church of preaching salvation by works. It is diabolical that diabolical means divisive, yes schism is diabolical in its divisiveness. What are we up to now? 38,000 denominations?
What does scripture say? Is Christ divided? God forbid! There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one forgiveness of sins. God’s Church has the marks of unity which are One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. What are you fighting for?

Submission does not feel good, humility does not feel good, our flesh wars with the spirit, but unless you deny yourself, you are not on the path of life. To any that accuse the Catholic Church, your accusations are true and will not be denied, but you have to remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. The servants wants to destroy the tares and risk damaging the wheat. God said no, let them both grow till harvest. The presence of tares in the field does not discredit the one who originally planted it. We grow around the tares and pray for their conversion. We do not take matters into our own hands against God’s advice by trying to build a new church

God help you, as you do not see the irony of what you are saying. Protestantism says that we are not saved by works, yet they preach works all the time. Say the sinners prayer? That’s a work. Confess with your mouth? That’s a work
Go and preach the gospel, that’s a work. Plant churches, those are works

What does scripture say? Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. God already built His Church on Peter, 2000 years ago, but Protestantism by definition says God did not do a good job, He needs human effort to build what He could not

That is great plan to invent all these new works to organize and accuse God’s Church of preaching salvation by works. It is diabolical that diabolical means divisive, yes schism is diabolical in its divisiveness. What are we up to now? 38,000 denominations?
What does scripture say? Is Christ divided? God forbid! There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one forgiveness of sins. God’s Church has the marks of unity which are One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. What are you fighting for?

Submission does not feel good, humility does not feel good, our flesh wars with the spirit, but unless you deny yourself, you are not on the path of life. To any that accuse the Catholic Church, your accusations are true and will not be denied, but you have to remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. The servants wants to destroy the tares and risk damaging the wheat. God said no, let them both grow till harvest. The presence of tares in the field does not discredit the one who originally planted it. We grow around the tares and pray for their conversion. We do not take matters into our own hands against God’s advice by trying to build a new church

Wasn't the response i was expecting, but that's ok. I get it, i think. I've been scoffed at for my beliefs and such, but i really was just looking to help.

It's apparent I'm not the one to help there so i bow out and move on.

And no worries, I'm totally ok with it. I just see the door is closed to my belief and I don't believe in knocking it down. I knocked, and the door got slammed in my face. Been there, done that. God bless you and thank you for your time and such.

 

[Michie]

Actually it is a huge parallel. It makes me wonder why we did not learn from the mistake of the first called if god and went and did the same thin

Ps it’s not slander when it is true

It’s not true.

Do Catholics = Pharisees?

If anyone can be said to be the villain of the Gospels, it’s the Pharisees. Sometimes fellow Christians will label Catholics as Pharisees. True?

www.catholic.com

 

[Michie]

In Defense of the Pharisees

The Gospel’s “bad guys,” the Pharisees, have gotten a bit of a bum rap—at least on some points. But what would you have done in their time and place?

www.catholic.com

Our Friends the Pharisees

When Jesus rebukes the Pharisees, he's rebuking them for something very specific. We need to know what that is before we pile on.

www.catholic.com

Please Explain the Difference between the Sadducees and the Pharisees in the Gospels

In the Gospels we see interactions between Jesus and the Sadducees and Pharisees. Who are these two groups? How do they differ? Click here to find out.

www.catholic.com

 

[The Liturgist]

It does not matter if we believe the flesh and blood is a literal or spiritual. If we believe the bread from heaven is literal or spiritual if we believe the food which endures is spiritual or literal

If it does not give the person who eats it what Jesus promised they would get. Then it’s not the food/bread/body spoken of in John 6.

In effect we make Jesus a liar when we claim that we can eat and not receive anything Jesus promised.

The problem with what you’re saying, as my Catholic friend @valleta pointed out, and as my Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch is always quick to point out, is what the Holy Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:27-32. Those verses indicate one can partake unworthily.

I would assume you are not disagreeing with St. Paul, so, under that assumption, how do you reconcile your views with what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 11?

 

[seeking.IAM]

Out of curiosity @Deegie @Jipsah @seeking.IAM and @PloverWing would any of you happen to know if a priest get in trouble if he read past verse 26 and included the pericope on not partaking unworthily without special prior authorization?

It is beyond my paygrade from here in the pew to know what gets a priest in trouble. I will defer to our esteemed Anglican clergy here in CF.

 

[The Liturgist]

It is beyond my paygrade from here in the pew to know what gets a priest in trouble. I will defer to our esteemed Anglican clergy here in CF.

Oops, I thought I hadn’t posted that - I had cut it out of the post and put it in a question in the Anglican forum, so if you see yourself asked this again, my apologies; I had edited when I thought I was posting afresh.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s not true.

But it is. Deny it all you want but you use assent the same excuses and reasoning even the same works base way to heaven although with different sacraments as you call them it laws as they call them