A Scriptural perspective on faith and works

[Eternally Grateful]

God gave us a Church, not a book. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it

Actually he gave us a book. He spent 2000 years over many generations and many men putting it together so we can have his word. So we can be complete lacking nothing. The book he said can and will rebuke us. Teach us. Admonish us. Etc etc

The body of Christ or the church is based on that book he gave us. It is the churches instruction manual and Gods love letter to the church

And your right the gates of hell will not prevail. A gate is used to keep the enemy out. The gates of hell will not keep hells enemy (the church) from entering in and rescuing people out of hell

The Bible itself tells us that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. It says that it is of no private interpretation. It tells us to lean not to our own understanding. It tells us to be as little children
The sign of obedience is not referring to a book, rather submission to one’s elders

It is modernist heresy to say that the early church was deceived and conquered. Only we have the truth now, because we read the book and interpret the way we want

I have read some in this thread sat that they doubt even parts of the Bible as true scripture.

Where is their standard? It’s not the Church. They say it failed. It’s not scripture, as they put even scripture under the opinions of men, tell us to discard history as unreliable, yet then tell us how things were back in Peter’s day. How do they know?
To whom do they submit? Whom do they obey? It’s not the Church. It’s not scripture by their own words. Then what? Following their logic is confusing, and scripture tells us who is the author of confusion. Do they listen to him? How do we know? How do they know?

May God have mercy. Honesty and repentance would be in order, if they still wish to claim to follow Our Lord.

If they do not wish to tell us to whom they submit, then nothing else they say is of value. Their words are as unstable as the sand and as random as the wind. As quicksand will trap you, and a whirlwind will destroy you, so is conversing with them.

Want to know the truth? Begin by reading Demonstration of the apostolic teaching by Iraneus. Another good book is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is in pain language with plenty of scriptural references.

It is not just the Bible, but how the Bible is put into practice that is important. We are not saved by our works aka praxis. But faith is practical. Those that have it will behave a certain way, those that don’t will point to their words.

Even a child knows that it is hypocrisy to preach do as I say not as I do, yet those that preach no works are telling us just that. Is Christianity a religion of hypocrisy? God forbid !

It’s amazing how people claim to be from god and part of his church and just spit on his word as if it is meaningless

When people want you to listen to them and not try to find out for yourself what God said in his word that’s a warning to run because they are hiding something and they are afraid you will find out the truth

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Actually he gave us a book. He spent 2000 years over many generations and many men putting it together so we can have his word. So we can be complete lacking nothing. The book he said can and will rebuke us. Teach us. Admonish us. Etc etc

The body of Christ or the church is based on that book he gave us. It is the churches instruction manual and Gods love letter to the church

And your right the gates of hell will not prevail. A gate is used to keep the enemy out. The gates of hell will not keep hells enemy (the church) from entering in and rescuing people out of hell


It’s amazing how people claim to be from god and part of his church and just spit on his word as if it is meaningless

When people want you to listen to them and not try to find out for yourself what God said in his word that’s a warning to run because they are hiding something and they are afraid you will find out the truth

By your own words you will be justified and by your own words you will be condemned.

Who is your source of truth? Plain simple question

We have established it’s not the Church, because you say she failed and was co-opted by the forces of human ambition.

It’s not scripture, because you have not precisely defined scripture. You say some parts are true some parts are dubious whether they are scripture. Who makes that distinction? What is your standard?

If you say that it is Jesus, then your statement is suspect, because Jesus gave his authority to Peter in plain language. I don’t know how it can be any more clear when Our Lord gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power of binding and loosing. That is plain language without room for doubt.

You disagree. Ok. I am only asking what is your basis for that disagreement?
Christ said He would build His Church. He put Peter in charge, you say no. I am not interested in your arguments and how you justify it to yourself. We have the Lord’s words, then we have your words.

Imagine you are in the presence of the disciples when Jesus spoke those words. The disciples even had arguments over who was the greatest. Jesus told them the greatest among you would be your servant. A servant submits, he does not dispute. Jesus would say to you, I just gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, are you going to say that I didn’t?

I already know that you don’t believe it. I don’t need to hear the arguments. I want the conclusion. Jesus needs you to correct His teaching because …….

The book does not teach, admonish or rebuke you, because you do not listen to the book. Even the book itself says that it does not do what you say. The passage in Timothy does not refer to the Bible itself doing those things, but it says it is useful. Used by whom? One with authority to use it. That would be apostolic authority. The one that you say does not exist. So who is your authority? The Holy Spirt? I doubt that

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gave the Apostles authority on Pentecost with tongues of fire. The Apostles received power directly from God in dramatic fashion that leaves no room for doubt, but you say that He didn’t do that

What is your basis for telling us what God says, when He plainly and clearly tells us something different from what you say?

The basis cannot be the Church, scripture, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. So what is it?

If you still try to claim Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we know Jehovah’s witnesses do the same thing, yet you say they are lying. Why should we believe you and not them?
Is there Apostolic Authority or not?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

By your own words you will be justified and by your own words you will be condemned.

Who is your source of truth? Plain simple question

The word of God

We have established it’s not the Church, because you say she failed and was co-opted by the forces of human ambition.

It’s not scripture, because you have not precisely defined scripture. You say some parts are true some parts are dubious whether they are scripture. Who makes that distinction? What is your standard?

If you say that it is Jesus, then your statement is suspect, because Jesus gave his authority to Peter in plain language. I don’t know how it can be any more clear when Our Lord gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power of binding and loosing. That is plain language without room for doubt.

You disagree. Ok. I am only asking what is your basis for that disagreement?
Christ said He would build His Church. He put Peter in charge, you say no. I am not interested in your arguments and how you justify it to yourself. We have the Lord’s words, then we have your words.

Imagine you are in the presence of the disciples when Jesus spoke those words. The disciples even had arguments over who was the greatest. Jesus told them the greatest among you would be your servant. A servant submits, he does not dispute. Jesus would say to you, I just gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, are you going to say that I didn’t?

I already know that you don’t believe it. I don’t need to hear the arguments. I want the conclusion. Jesus needs you to correct His teaching because …….

The book does not teach, admonish or rebuke you, because you do not listen to the book. Even the book itself says that it does not do what you say. The passage in Timothy does not refer to the Bible itself doing those things, but it says it is useful. Used by whom? One with authority to use it. That would be apostolic authority. The one that you say does not exist. So who is your authority? The Holy Spirt? I doubt that

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gave the Apostles authority on Pentecost with tongues of fire. The Apostles received power directly from God in dramatic fashion that leaves no room for doubt, but you say that He didn’t do that

What is your basis for telling us what God says, when He plainly and clearly tells us something different from what you say?

The basis cannot be the Church, scripture, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. So what is it?

If you still try to claim Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we know Jehovah’s witnesses do the same thing, yet you say they are lying. Why should we believe you and not them?
Is there Apostolic Authority or not?

I listen the the word. Not a particular church. Most churches say they have the truth it does not make them right. It does not matter if you’re Catholic or Protestant. Calvinist or Arminian. Baptist or Lutheran. When you stand in front of of God you will stand according g to what you believed not what you were taught

The fact anyone would say any church is more important that the word is enough to make anyone walk away

 

[boughtwithaprice]

It does not matter if we believe the flesh and blood is a literal or spiritual. If we believe the bread from heaven is literal or spiritual if we believe the food which endures is spiritual or literal

If it does not give the person who eats it what Jesus promised they would get. Then it’s not the food/bread/body spoken of in John 6.

In effect we make Jesus a liar when we claim that we can eat and not receive anything Jesus promised

What you just said is completely non-sensical. On one hand we tell you that we receive from Jesus His body and blood, soul and divinity which results in cleansing from venial sin and a decrease in concupiscence as any presence of Christ would do, You say that adds to salvation and is unbiblical ,and then you say we get nothing and make Jesus a liar. Which is it? All or nothing?
The Sacrament is ineffective for those that are in mortal sin as they eat and drink unworthily and head condemnation on themselves not discerning the Lord’s body. That is scriptural.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The word of God

I listen the the word. Not a particular church. Most churches say they have the truth it does not make them right. It does not matter if you’re Catholic or Protestant. Calvinist or Arminian. Baptist or Lutheran. When you stand in front of of God you will stand according g to what you believed not what you were taught

The fact anyone would say any church is more important that the word is enough to make anyone walk away

Well then you no longer follow scripture, rather are sitting in judgment of it. No one can tell you anything, not even scripture. You won’t admit it, but you have become a God unto yourself.
Why would scripture say that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church if it doesn’t mean it? Why would Christ say to Peter that He would build His Church against which the gates of hell would not prevail and not just say I am writing a book and anyone can interpret it for themselves?

Why would He describe the Church as a shining city on a Hill where we all submit to each other in love for Christ?

By your own words, you bow to no one. How can you be part of that city? You can’t say that you bow to God, because He told you to deny yourself and be the servant of others, yet you disagree with that too

Like I said before, you can’t claim scripture as your source, rather it is your interpretation of scripture. The words of scripture contradict you, yet you say they don’t. That is the same thing that Jehovah’s witnesses say. How are you different?

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Why would scripture say that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church if it doesn’t mean it? Why would Christ say to Peter that He would build His Church against which the gates of hell would not prevail and not just say I am writing a book and anyone can interpret it for themselves?

Indeed, the pillar and foundation of truth is the Lord's church, which is to say, that which is built upon the Cornerstone, Christ the Lord.

But the Lord's church is not led or defined by those whose authority and responsibility comes with swearing of vows.

J.E.B.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What you just said is completely non-sensical.

So it is nonsensical that whoever eats the bread will get what God promised? And we can use this to determine what doctrine concerning this is true?

I guess you could say this, if you want to continue to believe that your doctrine is correct..

On one hand we tell you that we receive from Jesus His body and blood, soul and divinity which results in cleansing from venial sin and a decrease in concupiscence as any presence of Christ would do, You say that adds to salvation and is unbiblical ,and then you say we get nothing and make Jesus a liar. Which is it? All or nothing?

1st off. Jesus did not say if you eat this, I will forgive you of a venial sin.
He did not say if you eat this, He will decrease in conspicuous or whatever this mean
I did not say you do not get what jesus promised. YOU DO! Your church does.

why are you blaming me for taking Jesus at face value? and then questioning those who do not?

The Sacrament is ineffective for those that are in mortal sin as they eat and drink unworthily and head condemnation on themselves not discerning the Lord’s body. That is scriptural.

Again, Jesus did not mention sin of any kind in his words to the people.

He Called the food the food which endures forever John 6: 27
He said whoever eats will never hunger or thirst John 6: 35
He said whoever does this will never be cast out John 6: 37
He said whoever does this will never be lost john 6: 39
He said whoever eats has everlasting life John 6: 40, 47, 54
He said whoever eats will be raised on the last day John 6: 40, 54
He said whoever eats will never die John 6: 50
He said whoever eats will live forever. John 6: 51, 58
he said whoever eats will live John 6: 57

so 13 times in the passage concerning this food which endures forever, the bread from heave, the flesh and blood which he came to give. Jesus said whoe3ver eats will get these things.

No mention of sin. No mention of venial or mortal
No mention of doing this often in remembrance of him

And he ends with these words.

what gives life, what is this bread, this food. this flesh and blood

John 6: 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

And peter acknowledged he understood what Jesus said gives eternal life. and all the promises made 13 times

John 6: 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life

But I am nonsensical?

My friend. You need to study what Jesus promised in the passage. Nothing you stated in your post has any part of Jesus conversation with the disciples and the people he fed the day before.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well then you no longer follow scripture, rather are sitting in judgment of it.

I sit in judgment of the word because I use it as my source of truth, and as my source to tell me who is teaching according to the word and who is not.

do you listen to yourself?

No one can tell you anything, not even scripture. You won’t admit it, but you have become a God unto yourself.

Um No. I do not place my eternity in the hands of anyone. I do what Paul said the Berean's did

Acts 17:10-11

10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

But this makes me my own God.. ok, whatever

Why would scripture say that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church if it doesn’t mean it?

It is true.

But how do we determine which is the true church?

should we not test like those in berea did. and be ready to recieve the word. But test daily to determine that they are right.

or do we blindly follow men and a church because they tell us they are the church?

Why would Christ say to Peter that He would build His Church against which the gates of hell would not prevail

The gates of hell has not prevailed. for 2000 years now. the church has entered the gates of hell and rescued people out, and brought these people out to the promised land..

the gates of hell will never keep the church out.

and not just say I am writing a book and anyone can interpret it for themselves?

lol. That gate of hell is a defensive weapon. Not an offensive weapon. He is not saying satan can destroy the church he said it woll not keep the church out.

Why would He describe the Church as a shining city on a Hill where we all submit to each other in love for Christ?

Oh, I have seen this church. Built on the foundation of apostles and prophets.. Its not a building, it is an organism.

By your own words, you bow to no one.

I bow to God

How can you be part of that city? You can’t say that you bow to God, because He told you to deny yourself and be the servant of others, yet you disagree with that too

My friend. I am a servant to others. You do not know who I am, I would set your judgment aside. It hurts your own case. you are sounding desperate now

Like I said before, you can’t claim scripture as your source, rather it is your interpretation of scripture.

Yet you believe Jesus said 13 times, whoever eats this bread from heaven will get this. means we do it all the time, and it only forgives certain sins and not other sins, even though Jesus never mentioned sins in the passage. and that no one who eats what you say will get any of the things Jesus promised 13 times.. and its my interpretation?

No my friend, Your following men.. Like the bereans, I tested what your men said, I tested what your church said about John 6. And I found it to be in error. I suggest you do the same

The words of scripture contradict you,

No my friend, they contradict what your church says

yet you say they don’t. That is the same thing that Jehovah’s witnesses say. How are you different?

read my last post.

I follow scripture. Not a church who claims to be from God. But I am part of the church of the living God.. and have been for 40 some years

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Like I said before, you can’t claim scripture as your source, rather it is your interpretation of scripture.

We can and do, state that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit of God, teaches us all things, and reminds us of that which Christ the Lord has said. This Christ the Lord promised, and has given.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We can and do, state that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit of God, teaches us all things, and reminds us of that which Christ the Lord has said. This Christ the Lord promised, and has given.

Amen, the word also says this about itself

2 tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Amen, the word also says this about itself

2 tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Holy Spirt came to rest on the Apostles and they were given the authority to preach the Gospel. It does it say that whoever reads this book wil have the Holy Spirit come to rest on them, rather we are told to submit to the Apostles

Do you even know what they taught? Have you ever read it, or do you merely rely on your own interpretation? If we rely on our own interpretation, we reduce the word of God to how we feel about it, rather than what it truly says
The Bible even tells you that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

The Bereans tested apostolic teaching, but they did not discard it. If you want to dispute me, that is your choice and it does not matter to me, in light of God and His apostles, I am nothing. What you need to do is read the Apostolic teaching by Iraneus and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and tell me where it contradicts scripture, and the reason for your rebellion, then you could claim to be like Bereans. As it is, you are as clanging cymbals that claim to speak for God.
No one saw tongues of fire come to rest on you

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

What you need to do is read the Apostolic teaching by Iraneus and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and tell me where it contradicts scripture, and the reason for your rebellion, then you could claim to be like Bereans.

We will read that which God has said, and consider the Roman church authorities, and notice how those authorities do not submit to God. We need to notice how those authorities are defined by the vows, of evil, which every single one of them swear. We need to notice how they call many who love their vows of evil "father", against the stated will of God. We need to notice the many, many, many words by which such people try to make many things which Christ the Lord has said, of no effect.

We have been telling you that which the Lord has said, within Holy Scripture. We do not need to respect the seventeen hundred years of vow-swearing violent church-feudalism to which you demand we attach ourselves. Though you don't care about these things yet, we will encourage all who will.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Holy Spirt came to rest on the Apostles and they were given the authority to preach the Gospel. It does it say that whoever reads this book wil have the Holy Spirit come to rest on them, rather we are told to submit to the Apostles

well...
1. the apostles are dead.
2. We have their words written and inspired in the book we call the bible

which as I showed, the apostle said those words can make me thoroughly equiped for every good work.

so did that apostle get it wrong?

Do you even know what they taught? Have you ever read it, or do you merely rely on your own interpretation?

I read it almost every day.. My interpretation? No,. I read what they say..

If we rely on our own interpretation, we reduce the word of God to how we feel about it, rather than what it truly says
The Bible even tells you that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Yeah, But who are you listening to? the apostles. or those who claim they speak for the apostles?

The Bereans tested apostolic teaching, but they did not discard it.

I do not either

If you want to dispute me, that is your choice and it does not matter to me, in light of God and His apostles, I am nothing. What you need to do is read the Apostolic teaching by Iraneus and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and tell me where it contradicts scripture, and the reason for your rebellion, then you could claim to be like Bereans. As it is, you are as clanging cymbals that claim to speak for God.
No one saw tongues of fire come to rest on you

1. Iraneus? When did his words become part of scripture?
2. Catechism of the catholic church? When did it become inspired?
3. All I have to do is prove one of the doctrines of the catholic church is wrong. (which is not hard. they claim it is faith plus works. I even had someone say that they do not teach salvation can be earned, yet then followed up by telling me all the works he had to do to earn his salvation)
4. It is a clanging symbol to declare you are not trying to earn your salvation, when you are in fact doing that very thing. At least you could be honest with yourself.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

We will read that which God has said, and consider the Roman church authorities, and notice how those authorities do not submit to God. We need to notice how those authorities are defined by the vows, of evil, which every single one of them swear. We need to notice how they call many who love their vows of evil "father", against the stated will of God. We need to notice the many, many, many words by which such people try to make many things which Christ the Lord has said, of no effect.

We have been telling you that which the Lord has said, within Holy Scripture. We do not need to respect the seventeen hundred years of vow-swearing violent church-feudalism to which you demand we attach ourselves. Though you don't care about these things yet, we will encourage all who will.

So you admit your dishonesty? How can that be from God? You need to know what you are talking about before you say you speak for God.
Jesus told this to the Pharisees when they said He cast our demons by Beelzebub.
Calling something demonic, which is in fact holy, is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, and it is against CF rules. Perhaps God could forgive your ignorance, but He does not smile on willful ignorance.
The Bereans were not willfully ignorant. They studied, you are refusing to do so. That is not wise and very dangerous for your soul. God does not guarantee mercy to obstinate sinners. He gives grace to the humble.
A mark of humility is admitting that you may be wrong. The only way to prove that is to study and understand, not rise up like Cain and destroy

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

So you admit your dishonesty? How can that be from God? You need to know what you are talking about before you say you speak for God.

Rather educational, how you wrote words that have nothing at all to do with reply.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

well...
1. the apostles are dead.
2. We have their words written and inspired in the book we call the bible

which as I showed, the apostle said those words can make me thoroughly equiped for every good work.

so did that apostle get it wrong?

I read it almost every day.. My interpretation? No,. I read what they say..

Yeah, But who are you listening to? the apostles. or those who claim they speak for the apostles?

I do not either

1. Iraneus? When did his words become part of scripture?
2. Catechism of the catholic church? When did it become inspired?
3. All I have to do is prove one of the doctrines of the catholic church is wrong. (which is not hard. they claim it is faith plus works. I even had someone say that they do not teach salvation can be earned, yet then followed up by telling me all the works he had to do to earn his salvation)
4. It is a clanging symbol to declare you are not trying to earn your salvation, when you are in fact doing that very thing. At least you could be honest with yourself.

Then go to the Catechism, pick a doctrine and show me how it is wrong. My salvation is not earned, but God has given us the analogy of marriage. It takes work to make a marriage work
A Christian who refuses good works is like a lazy woman that refuses to learn to please her husband. The works that a virtuous wife does do not make her any more married and they can only be good works if she is married. If she refuses to do the work of love for her husband, she becomes a fat lazy sow that no man would have intercourse with her.

Jesus gives you the parable of a man coming to the marriage feast without a wedding garment. The wedding garment is offered for free and merely takes a request. Do you wish to do the good works to love your Lord and know Him, or do you refuse to wear and care for your wedding garment? Or do you wish to be as the lazy woman that says I am married, I don’t have to work? You can try that, but just as a woman so married begins to mock and resent her husband, you would not be too happy in heaven

There are so many scriptures that tell you to keep your wedding garment clean and prepare yourself for your husband that you are without excuse

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Rather educational, how you wrote without replying.

It is revealing how you speak accusations without knowledge. You are invited to study, yet I need not acknowledge your slander. God does not speak like you do, why should I trust you?

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

I'll encourage you to learn that which Christ the Lord has said about all swearing of vows. And of European feudalism, most of all its religious basis.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then go to the Catechism, pick a doctrine and show me how it is wrong. My salvation is not earned, but God has given us the analogy of marriage. It takes work to make a marriage work

So you’re not earning your salvation. But you are

Instead making f my going to some words of men why don’t you read your own words and realize how contradictory they are

A Christian who refuses good works is like a lazy woman that refuses to learn to please her husband. The works that a virtuous wife does do not make her any more married and they can only be good works if she is married. If she refuses to do the work of love for her husband, she becomes a fat lazy sow that no man would have intercourse with her.

Yawn

I don’t refuse works. I work because I am saved not to earn my salvation

Jesus gives you the parable of a man coming to the marriage feast without a wedding garment. The wedding garment is offered for free and merely takes a request. Do you wish to do the good works to love your Lord and know Him, or do you refuse to wear and care for your wedding garment? Or do you wish to be as the lazy woman that says I am married, I don’t have to work? You can try that, but just as a woman so married begins to mock and resent her husband, you would not be too happy in heaven

There are so many scriptures that tell you to keep your wedding garment clean and prepare yourself for your husband that you are without excuse

lol. Again read this post everything you said shows you are trying to merit salvation. Yet you deny it

I am not the confused one my friend

Instead of focusing on a catechism focus on the Bible

 

[Michie]

From cover to cover, the Catechism includes copious references to the Bible supporting Catholic doctrines, including those not taught explicitly therein. In addition to this, it cites popes, early Christian writers, and Church councils to demonstrate a continuity of doctrine that stretches all the way back to the apostles and ultimately to Christ himself.

Continued below.

Is the Catechism “Extra Stuff”?

From cover to cover, the Catechism includes copious references to the Bible supporting Catholic doctrines, including those not taught explicitly therein.

www.catholic.com