CAN YOU HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

[Bro.T]

Amen -- God is not seeking "immortal rebellion".

The New Covenant creates a new heart - a new creation, old things passed away all things become new 2 Cor 5.

Mad in His image - given the "mind of Christ" - a heart to know God rather than a rebellious heart.

Amen.....Praise the Lord in Jesus name

 

[sparow]

Amen.....Praise the Lord in Jesus name

If one had the mind of Christ one would be perfect and would not need God's grace but would indeed be lawful.

 

[DamianWarS]

The scriptures teach us that GOD'S LAW (10 Commandment) gives us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's 10 commandments give us the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is when broken and lead us to CHRIST that we might be forgiven by faith. WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

Your conflating the term law with the 10 commandments. Who told you to do this? Where is your scriptural support for this claim?

I may not steal from my neighbour, lie to him, sleep with his wife, covet his things or I may not even kill him but still habour hate for him in my heart. Maybe instead of hate I just ignore him and don't even bother to look his way. I may even honor my parents and not have any idols or graven images. I'm also content to leave my neighbour trapped in a pit so I may keep the sabbath (it's his pit, so his problem). In doing so I keep the 10 by letter but I've missed the whole point and break them all.

 

[sparow]

Your conflating the term law with the 10 commandments. Who told you to do this? Where is your scriptural support for this claim?

I may not steal from my neighbour, lie to him, sleep with his wife, covet his things or I may not even kill him but still habour hate for him in my heart. Maybe instead of hate I just ignore him and don't even bother to look his way. I may even honor my parents and not have any idols or graven images. I'm also content to leave my neighbour trapped in a pit so I may keep the sabbath (it's his pit, so his problem). In doing so I keep the 10 by letter but I've missed the whole point and break them all.

On the 10 commandments I mostly agree with the SDA , they attempt to walk with God. You seem to base your position on what Jesus did not say, or did not reiterate, instead of assuming what has been established remains and cannot be changed. The 10 commandments are an abstract, first of the first 4 or 5 Books of the Bible, second, they are an abstract of the life of anyone who walks with God.

Keeping the Law to the letter is irrational, and not possible; never the less, how a person walks with God will determine each salvation.

 

[ralliann]

How can you have a GRACE without God's LAW (10 commandments) when it is God's LAW that leads to GRACE? What are the OLD and NEW COVENANTS? If you do not KNOW what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is that the OLD COVENANT points to?

There is the law of faith which was from the beginning.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Hebrews speaks of this law from Abel on....
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. {yet … : or, is yet spoken of }

 

[DamianWarS]

On the 10 commandments I mostly agree with the SDA , they attempt to walk with God. You seem to base your position on what Jesus did not say, or did not reiterate, instead of assuming what has been established remains and cannot be changed. The 10 commandments are an abstract, first of the first 4 or 5 Books of the Bible, second, they are an abstract of the life of anyone who walks with God.

Keeping the Law to the letter is irrational, and not possible; never the less, how a person walks with God will determine each salvation.

Jesus shows the 10 commandments by letter are not enough, Mat 5 details this as well as the conversation with the rich man in Mat 19. This remark from the rich man stands out "All these I have kept ... what do I still lack?.

Jesus also tells us shows us a commandment of love that fulfills the law. Paul picks up on it as well and seems to love the idea, just read Galations.

Keeping the 10 commandments is laudable but we can easily miss the mark when too focused on the letter. Mat 5 shows pretty clearly it is not enough to simply resist killing someone or resisit have sex with another man's wife. This is the dominate focus of the 10 to resisit evil but it does a poor job at showing us how to do good. Jesus gives us a heuristic approach to law with his commandment to love and showing us it's a matter of the heart that happens well before any of the 10 are violated.

The 4th is one that is quickly lost because we are too focused on the letter. Jesus tells us that doing good is lawful on the Sabbath (Mat 12:12), he says this after giving an example of rescuing sheep. Does he really need to spell it out? Lost Sheep is a metaphor for lost people (undeniably), yet we rest while the sounds of bleating sheep trapped in pits surround us. In doing so we do not keep the Sabbath we profain it.

 

[Bro.T]

If one had the mind of Christ one would be perfect and would not need God's grace but would indeed be lawful.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2: 6 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. So let's take a look at this mind and see how this works. Let's go to Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[sparow]

Jesus shows the 10 commandments by letter are not enough, Mat 5 details this as well as the conversation with the rich man in Mat 19. This remark from the rich man stands out "All these I have kept ... what do I still lack?.

Jesus also tells us shows us a commandment of love that fulfills the law. Paul picks up on it as well and seems to love the idea, just read Galations.

Keeping the 10 commandments is laudable but we can easily miss the mark when too focused on the letter. Mat 5 shows pretty clearly it is not enough to simply resist killing someone or resisit have sex with another man's wife. This is the dominate focus of the 10 to resisit evil but it does a poor job at showing us how to do good. Jesus gives us a heuristic approach to law with his commandment to love and showing us it's a matter of the heart that happens well before any of the 10 are violated.

The 4th is one that is quickly lost because we are too focused on the letter. Jesus tells us that doing good is lawful on the Sabbath (Mat 12:12), he says this after giving an example of rescuing sheep. Does he really need to spell it out? Lost Sheep is a metaphor for lost people (undeniably), yet we rest while the sounds of bleating sheep trapped in pits surround us. In doing so we do not keep the Sabbath we profain it.
[/QUOTE.


I have often wondered about keeping the Law and the ways of doing that. One way would be to stand still and not do ten things, and on the seventh day attend the nearest church. Another way is to live ones life in accordance with the Law.

In Matt 5 Jesus is having the conversation we are having. Matt 19, the young man wanted to be perfect until he found out the cost, keeping the commandments are subjective, each person will do it differently, I get the impression that the young man was above average.

My understanding of the Law is different to yours. Keeping the Law is positive, where things are done, and the number of thing that can be done are infinity + those things God has said to do - those things he has said not to do.

 

[DamianWarS]

I have often wondered about keeping the Law and the ways of doing that. One way would be to stand still and not do ten things, and on the seventh day attend the nearest church. Another way is to live ones life in accordance with the Law.

In Matt 5 Jesus is having the conversation we are having. Matt 19, the young man wanted to be perfect until he found out the cost, keeping the commandments are subjective, each person will do it differently, I get the impression that the young man was above average.

My understanding of the Law is different to yours. Keeping the Law is positive, where things are done, and the number of thing that can be done are infinity + those things God has said to do - those things he has said not to do.

The 10 are void of love by letter and we can lose our way when driven at keeping them because we are not prompted to do anything else. I didn't steal, lie, kill, etc.. today so I'll pat myself on my back because what else can a person do? Meanwhile I passed 100+ people through out the day in spiritual darkness who need someone to pull them out. But I'm too busy keeping the sabbath to notice, plus I got my 10 in... so I'm fine.

If we change our focus from law keeping to love keeping (in Christ) then we become focused at meeting the needs of others around us over keeping a group of laws that may actually result in ignoring those people. Go ahead and keep law, that practice is not the issue, it's when we view our law keeping as doing enough and stop looking at how we can connect with others that's the issue.

Perhaps you're not one of those people and if so you may need to rethink what actually drives you, law or love? Without hesitation for me it is always the latter. If I see a new neighbour drive up in moving van on the Sabbath unloading it what do I do? Should I quickly hide incase he see me? Should I rebuke him for working on the Sabbath? Should I say a hardy howdy and watch him struggle lifting a sofa? Maybe I should go over and invite him to church? All of those may keep law by letter, but I'm not interested in those. I'll drop what I'm doing and help him out.

If Christ says is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath then why not just do good on every day, then you don't have to worry about what day you're keeping, because it will always be lawful.

 

[sparow]

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2: 6 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. So let's take a look at this mind and see how this works. Let's go to Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

My statement was concise and rigid, as usual. I do not have a problem with these, Paul's words, without context; I cannot confirm that Paul and the people he was talking to had the mind of Christ, but if they did they would not be made perfect until the last day.

 

[sparow]

The 10 are void of love by letter and we can lose our way when driven at keeping them because we are not prompted to do anything else. I didn't steal, lie, kill, etc.. today so I'll pat myself on my back because what else can a person do? Meanwhile I passed 100+ people through out the day in spiritual darkness who need someone to pull them out. But I'm too busy keeping the sabbath to notice, plus I got my 10 in... so I'm fine.

If we change our focus from law keeping to love keeping (in Christ) then we become focused at meeting the needs of others around us over keeping a group of laws that may actually result in ignoring those people. Go ahead and keep law, that practice is not the issue, it's when we view our law keeping as doing enough and stop looking at how we can connect with others that's the issue.

Perhaps you're not one of those people and if so you may need to rethink what actually drives you, law or love? Without hesitation for me it is always the latter. If I see a new neighbour drive up in moving van on the Sabbath unloading it what do I do? Should I quickly hide incase he see me? Should I rebuke him for working on the Sabbath? Should I say a hardy howdy and watch him struggle lifting a sofa? Maybe I should go over and invite him to church? All of those may keep law by letter, but I'm not interested in those. I'll drop what I'm doing and help him out.

If Christ says is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath then why not just do good on every day, then you don't have to worry about what day you're keeping, because it will always be lawful.

I get your drift, but it is God who calls and choses, do not feel guilty, or you may find yourself casting pearls before swine.

Instead of trying to keep the Law like a Pharisee, you should allow the Law to define your personality so that the law is you and not something you keep, then if you share you faith or keep the Sabbath it is from the inside out not from the outside in, let the mind of God be in you.

You seem to be caught in a trap, created by the teaching of men, God's Law is perfect; if you see it as not perfect there is something wrong with your perception, the Law should be written on your heart and on your mind.

On the subject of the Sabbath, it is lawful to do good seven days a week, even on the Sabbath if it cannot be put off, it is required to worship God seven days a week, but God sanctified the seventh day for a reason; to change the day is to oppose God.

 

[DamianWarS]

I get your drift, but it is God who calls and choses, do not feel guilty, or you may find yourself casting pearls before swine.

Instead of trying to keep the Law like a Pharisee, you should allow the Law to define your personality so that the law is you and not something you keep, then if you share you faith or keep the Sabbath it is from the inside out not from the outside in, let the mind of God be in you.

You seem to be caught in a trap, created by the teaching of men, God's Law is perfect; if you see it as not perfect there is something wrong with your perception, the Law should be written on your heart and on your mind.

Saying God's law is perfect and leaving it at that is not thinking critically about the issue. There is more to God's law than the 10, all can be spoken of as perfect, yet clearly our obligation of them differs. When you intend to isolate the 10 by calling it God's law or perfect you are in essence saying it is a special kind of God's law and a special kind of perfect that is separate to the rest of law. Where is the scriptural support to separate the 10 outside of the covenant they are created in?

All law points to Christ from sacrificial laws, separating laws/food laws, ceremonial, etc... (there are no such labels in the bible but you get my point). They have instruction for inside its covenant as well as deeper meaning that extends outside.

Our focus should not be the surface but the deeper layers. to resist killing lying, stealing, etc... these are good in themselves but they do not address love and that's where our focus should be "Written upon the heart" means living and dynamic and guided by the spirit not static and written upon stone. The product may be similar but we should be guided by the spirit not by tablets written on stone.

our focus should be love centric not law centric. Gal 5:14 tells us the commandment to love your neighbour as yourself fulfills all law. This is a heuristic approach to law, it is not an list of do's and don'ts, but a method to calibrate your actions that implicitly requires engagement to your surroundings as well as to the spirit.

The 10 simply don't cover the nuances of life that need to be addressed to have impact. The fact that I didn't lie to a person, steal from them, kill them, sleep with their wife, etc... is all well and good but it does nothing to engage with that person and address their needs. Our actions calibrated to the 10 are also not enough.

On the subject of the Sabbath, it is lawful to do good seven days a week, even on the Sabbath if it cannot be put off, it is required to worship God seven days a week, but God sanctified the seventh day for a reason; to change the day is to oppose God.

This a poor excuse to withhold goodness. Christ says it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath, he did not say only if it can't be put off. Why put off goodness? This is the sentiment I am speaking against. Look around in a mile radius. How many are in spiritual darkness? These are akin to sheep trapped in pits and we should treat these cases seriously not just put them off. Rest is fine but when an opportunity for goodness is upon us why put it off? It feels a bit like crossing the street like in the good Samaritan. If instead of being law driven we are love/goodness driven then it is lawful. Christ teaches this, Paul and James also teach this so what's the hesitation?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What about all who came before the law. did they not have Gods grace?

 

[Danthemailman]

What about all who came before the law. did they not have Gods grace?

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (Genesis 6:8)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The law was given to lead people to Christ. to point them to Christ. Not to give Gods grace.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We would not need grace if there was no law. No law, no sin Rom 4:15

The law is to show us our sins

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

And so we are not depending on our righteousness which is filthy rags, but so we depend on Christs righteousness Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-6 which is everlasting Psa 119:142

The law shows us our sins and points us to Christ and when we repent which means a sorry heart and a change in direction His blood cleanses us of all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 (gives us grace) but when He cleanses us He says go and sin no more- meaning keep My commandments 1 John 3:4 John 14:15- He doesn't even make us to it alone but it requires our cooperation John 14:15-18 Heb 8:10

 

[sparow]

Saying God's law is perfect and leaving it at that is not thinking critically about the issue. There is more to God's law than the 10, all can be spoken of as perfect, yet clearly our obligation of them differs. When you intend to isolate the 10 by calling it God's law or perfect you are in essence saying it is a special kind of God's law and a special kind of perfect that is separate to the rest of law. Where is the scriptural support to separate the 10 outside of the covenant they are created in?

All law points to Christ from sacrificial laws, separating laws/food laws, ceremonial, etc... (there are no such labels in the bible but you get my point). They have instruction for inside its covenant as well as deeper meaning that extends outside.

Our focus should not be the surface but the deeper layers. to resist killing lying, stealing, etc... these are good in themselves but they do not address love and that's where our focus should be "Written upon the heart" means living and dynamic and guided by the spirit not static and written upon stone. The product may be similar but we should be guided by the spirit not by tablets written on stone.

our focus should be love centric not law centric. Gal 5:14 tells us the commandment to love your neighbour as yourself fulfills all law. This is a heuristic approach to law, it is not an list of do's and don'ts, but a method to calibrate your actions that implicitly requires engagement to your surroundings as well as to the spirit.

The 10 simply don't cover the nuances of life that need to be addressed to have impact. The fact that I didn't lie to a person, steal from them, kill them, sleep with their wife, etc... is all well and good but it does nothing to engage with that person and address their needs. Our actions calibrated to the 10 are also not enough.


This a poor excuse to withhold goodness. Christ says it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath, he did not say only if it can't be put off. Why put off goodness? This is the sentiment I am speaking against. Look around in a mile radius. How many are in spiritual darkness? These are akin to sheep trapped in pits and we should treat these cases seriously not just put them off. Rest is fine but when an opportunity for goodness is upon us why put it off? It feels a bit like crossing the street like in the good Samaritan. If instead of being law driven we are love/goodness driven then it is lawful. Christ teaches this, Paul and James also teach this so what's the hesitation?

It was God who said his Law was perfect, which would include the rock foundation he gave; is critical thinking greater than God?

I regard the word of God to be homologous and holistic, yet I am only able to refer to it using linear strings referring to portions. I view the 10 as an abstract (summary of the whole), and it is the rock foundation of our faith, it's keeping is mankind's responsibility under the covenant.

The use of the word love is so profuse that the word becomes meaningless, it is different in the Greek. It is interesting that you give Paul credit for what Christ said and what can be found in the OT.

In the example you quote, "Love your neighbor as you love your self fulfils the Law." In this case fulfilling the Law defines love; you say an illusion (love) defines the Law.

Hopefully people who keep the Sabbath know what is required. Jesus said that the Law is not broken when good is done, but obviously the Sabbath is suspended during that time, Jesus did not command people to run around doing good on the Sabbath, as though they belonged to that other religion. One good thing we could do on the Sabbath would be to preach the Gospel according to Christ.

 

[DamianWarS]

It was God who said his Law was perfect, which would include the rock foundation he gave; is critical thinking greater than God?

You're not critically engaging it because you're limiting it to the 10 while at the same time trying to shame for me for not doing the same. What is God's law? Only the 10 or greater? Without doubt greater. Christ tells us the two greatest commandments, they are both found in law, but outside of the 10. You seem to only want to look at the 10 in a vacuumm and speak of nothing else.

I regard the word of God to be homologous and holistic, yet I am only able to refer to it using linear strings referring to portions. I view the 10 as an abstract (summary of the whole), and it is the rock foundation of our faith, it's keeping is mankind's responsibility under the covenant.

Christ tells us what the summary of law is, which is the love your neighbour as yourself commandment (Matthew 7:12). This should be our focus, since it was what Christ taught.

The use of the word love is so profuse that the word becomes meaningless, it is different in the Greek. It is interesting that you give Paul credit for what Christ said and what can be found in the OT.

It is Christ's law and Christ's language. Paul call's it this in 1 Cor 9. He only is echoing Christ. The Torah points to Christ but it is meant for place and time and should not be regarded as universal but instead based on a universal construct. That construct is Christ's law. Christ himself says all the law and prophets hang upon it.

We can define love from biblical usage over modern usage. If you think love is too hard to define then how can we be so confident on defining other words? Rather than throw your hands up and say it's meaningless we should define it so that we may be faithful to Christ's commandment to us to love one another.

Hopefully people who keep the Sabbath know what is required. Jesus said that the Law is not broken when good is done, but obviously the Sabbath is suspended during that time, Jesus did not command people to run around doing good on the Sabbath, as though they belonged to that other religion. One good thing we could do on the Sabbath Construct to preach the Gospel according to Christ.

Love and goodness are dovetailed together. Jesus give us a commandment to love one another (Jn 13:34). How do we love one another? Is it simply that we should resist killing each other, lying, stealing, sleeping with each other? What happens when we have done all that? Is the commandment to love one another complete or can we do more? Is doing good an example of showing love?

If we hide away then our opportunity to do good is limited to our environment we choose to hide in. The more exposure we have with people the greater the opportunity we have to do goodness because the greater the needs become. Should we leave sheep in pits? I think Christ's example (Mat 12:11) shows that there is an implicit demand to do goodness that we cannot just sweep under a rug. Saying Christ never commandment us to do goodness explicitly as an excuse not to do goodness is a gross misrepresentation of the gospel. Regardless, if we do good, it is lawful. "Suspended Sabbath" is an interesting theory but certainly nothing the bible supports. How can we rest when those around us cannot? The 4th commandment is about rest for all, not just a selfish rest.

 

[sparow]

We would not need grace if there was no law. No law, no sin Rom 4:15

The law is to show us our sins

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

And so we are not depending on our righteousness which is filthy rags, but so we depend on Christs righteousness Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-6 which is everlasting Psa 119:142

The law shows us our sins and points us to Christ and when we repent which means a sorry heart and a change in direction His blood cleanses us of all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 (gives us grace) but when He cleanses us He says go and sin no more- meaning keep My commandments 1 John 3:4 John 14:15- He doesn't even make us to it alone but it requires our cooperation John 14:15-18 Heb 8:10

Should your righteousness be filthy rags you should repent, you do not need to receive the wrath of God. We need to seek the Lord, Isaiah 64:6 refers to Israel who sort the Lord not.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Should your righteousness be filthy rags you should repent, you do not need to receive the wrath of God. We need to seek the Lord, Isaiah 64:6 refers to Israel who sort the Lord not.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said or I didn't explain it well. What I said was when we depend on our righteousness (right and wrong doing), which is fifthly rags over Christ's righteousness, which is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 Psa 119:172.