Church words - are they legit or is there problems?

[Eternally Grateful]

But faith receive through that grace does require to be accompanied by both repentance AND good works in order to fulfill the meaning of "faith" in regard to God's new opportunity for forgiveness. So, in some way, there IS something to be done in faith by which to enact OUR side of the agreement that is in the New Covenant. (It is a covenant with Christ, after all....)

And this is why I will continue to advocate my stance against "Free Grace" theology.

first off. repentance is not a work, it is a change of mind, second off, you will not trust God unless you have this change of mind. and we are told faith is not work, because it does not merit salvation.

third. You did not read what I posted it is obvious here. Will you please go back and read the entire thing and not just pick one small part out and act as if you are right.

I proved that grace is NOT OF WORKS. I proved that faith is NOT OF WORK. I proved that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. and i proved that justification is NOT OF WORKS.

so unless you can go back and show how I made a mistake. You in effect prove my point about a "church word" Your making a definition of a word and taking it out of context and out of its actual meaning (grace by definition is free to the receiver)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

first off. repentance is not a work, it is a change of mind, second off, you will not trust God unless you have this change of mind. and we are told faith is not work, because it does not merit salvation.

third. You did not read what I posted it is obvious here. Will you please go back and read the entire thing and not just pick one small part out and act as if you are right.

I proved that grace is NOT OF WORKS. I proved that faith is NOT OF WORK. I proved that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. and i proved that justification is NOT OF WORKS.

so unless you can go back and show how I made a mistake. You in effect prove my point about a "church word" Your making a definition of a word and taking it out of context and out of its actual meaning (grace by definition is free to the receiver)

In which post previously did you PROVE anything to me? I'm not going to hunt for it--------------NO, YOU need to cite your work.

So do so, please.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As in born again. . .which has nothing to do with human birth, and everything to do with (spiritual) resurrection from (spiritual) death into eternal life?

You did not answer my question.

Can a word God put in his word be used in a way which is opposite of its true ,meaning,.

As for your example. I was dead in sin, I was made alive, that is born again spiritually.. I am not sure how that would be an opposite meaning from what it really means, it is perfectly in line with the normal meaning of the word

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And that's great, even if I'm not a Southern Baptist. I'm a Critical Christian who won't stomach the unwarranted criticisms from other modern Christians, especially when they make zero effort to understand my own form of faith in Christ.

I used to be baptist. But I am no longer one myself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Re-inventing the wheel. . .

yes,

it makes me wonder why they transliterated the word baptizo to make a new word baptize. and did not interpret the word.

imagine how many less fights we would have about what the word means if they did that

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thank you. This is quite a bit, to be clear you are saying that others regard grace as something one earns by what one does, and you are saying this is not so. And to this I agree.

A crucial aspect of being a recipient of God's grace is our response to it. (Not that we earned it but that we respond to it). The appropriate response is seen in thankfulness that is displayed in our obedience and our genuine commitment to this God and His requirements. He also gives us another gift the gift of the Spirit, a gift that empowers the recipients to appropriately respond to this grace.

Also you started in the New Testament? The authors of the NT would have had a reference for Gods grace from their understanding of the OT, they continually referred back to it, as can be seen in the chapter you started with in Acts.

The concept of grace is seen in the OT as God revealed who He is until the embodiment of this character/attribute of God is revealed in Christ.

I still don't understand what you mean by "church words" , maybe you could clarify?

sorry if I confused you. I use the term "church word" here as my own saying, it is what I call the use of a word outside its original meaning.

ie grace is something earned or merited by works.

I thought of it here a few days again again when a member was sad that people claimed he merited his salvation, but he did not, he was saved by grace.

yet when I questioned him (according to what he had been saying) it was obvious he did believe his salvation was merited. in fact. he spoke of all kinds of works he had to do to assure his salvation.

And then, even in this thread. someone calling it free grace (a false theology) when grace in in fact free to the reciever (paid in full by Christ on the cross)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In which post previously did you PROVE anything to me? I'm not going to hunt for it--------------NO, YOU need to cite your work.

So do so, please.

I made three posts earlier. I believe you pulled one small part out of one of those posts. and responded to that, (Post 175, 176 and 177 in response to your term free grace theology

from post 175 I said

But what about grace as it relates to salvation? When I see this word in context. I immediately think of the terms of God being Kind, Showing favor, Goodwill, and a gift. All of which are possible meanings of the word Grace. But what does the Bible say?

Here are a few of my main points,

from post 176

So here we see a few things in romans 3

1. Righteousness is given to the one who has faith
2. All have sinned, meaning all are guilty, and need saved
3. Justification (a legal term which means found innocent, or found to be righteous) is according to Gods grace, this grace was paid for (redemption) by Christ, whom god set forth as a propitiation (A place of propitiation, a means of forgiveness, a means of expiation (Ex·pi·a·tion - the act of making amends or reparation for guilt or wrongdoing; atonement:
   "an act of public expiation"
4. The price of redemption was the price of atonement,, which which know per the law. That the atonment was paid by blood. Christ of course is the one who redeemed us through his blood as peter says in 1 peter 1 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. Again taking us back to the law. And the day of atonement, and the lamb without sport.

From romans 4

1. Again we see the word or term justified, or a righteousness that was given
2. Again, we see it is through faith that Abraham is justified.
3. This time works are added to the equation. Only in the negative. We also see for the first time, works and boasting in the same view
4. Grace, We are told that it is not of works, for works are counted as debt. Not grace
5. We are told again, It is through faith, And it is through this faith that we are accounted as being righteous (justified) which means our sins are forgiven, we are seen as right before God. But not of ourselves. it is Gods righteousness applied to us

Romans 11: And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

1. Here we see a major differentiation between grace and works. It can not be grace plus works, or works plus Grace, it can only be one or the other. This keeps in line with everything we have seen to this point
2. Paul is clear. If works is added to grace. Grace is no longer grace. Ie, grace can not be merited by works

these are but a few, I have a whole other post.

 

[Rose_bud]

sorry if I confused you. I use the term "church word" here as my own saying, it is what I call the use of a word outside its original meaning.

ie grace is something earned or merited by works.

Understood, so your desire is to reclaim the original understanding of grace or "biblical" grace (biblical grace is probably another "church word", although it's to distinguish. Which could possibly have been the reason for all the other "church words"). But you saying that even these distinguishing church words could imply that grace is earned by what we do, even if that is not the intention?

I thought of it here a few days again again when a member was sad that people claimed he merited his salvation, but he did not, he was saved by grace.

yet when I questioned him (according to what he had been saying) it was obvious he did believe his salvation was merited. in fact. he spoke of all kinds of works he had to do to assure his salvation.

So he said he was saved by grace, yet your understanding of his words betrayed this claim. Could he not have been confusing Gods grace and his response to this grace?

And then, even in this thread. someone calling it free grace (a false theology) when grace in in fact free to the reciever (paid in full by Christ on the cross)

I agree, God graciously gives to us generously. But awareness of Gods grace has a response.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Understood, so your desire is to reclaim the original understanding of grace or "biblical" grace (biblical grace is probably another "church word", although it's to distinguish. Which could possibly have been the reason for all the other "church words"). But you saying that even these distinguishing church words could imply that grace is earned by what we do, even if that is not the intention?

actually my goal is to get people to see what they are doing, in helps of helping some come out from under what they have been taught. I was taught falsely for many years. it was not until I actually began to study myself and see the defections I was given for some words did not make sense.

And also I look, and see people say things, that make no sense to me. and want to try to understand what it is that gets them to believe in this "Church defenition" of a word.. when they could be freed by looking at what the word really means, and then question (as I did) why they believe what they believe

So he said he was saved by grace, yet your understanding of his words betrayed this claim. Could he not have been confusing Gods grace and his response to this grace?

first off. grace is only one of the words. I am seeing merit may be another one we need to look at.

No. It would not be this, because the person flat out said his means of salvation and forgiveness was because he did those works.

I agree, God graciously gives to us generously. But awareness of Gods grace has a response.

Yes it does.

But what response saves us.

do we receive Gods gift in faith

or to we try to merit Gods grace by works.

 

[Rose_bud]

actually my goal is to get people to see what they are doing, in helps of helping some come out from under what they have been taught. I was taught falsely for many years. it was not until I actually began to study myself and see the defections I was given for some words did not make sense.

And also I look, and see people say things, that make no sense to me. and want to try to understand what it is that gets them to believe in this "Church defenition" of a word.. when they could be freed by looking at what the word really means, and then question (as I did) why they believe what they believe

Yes, it's always good to question and study for oneself.

first off. grace is only one of the words. I am seeing merit may be another one we need to look at.

Sure, but I think grace is in itself an exhaustive word.

No. It would not be this, because the person flat out said his means of salvation and forgiveness was because he did those works.

Noted

Yes it does.

But what response saves us.

do we receive Gods gift in faith

or to we try to merit Gods grace by works.

The response to God's grace through faith. The response acknowledges and demonstrates that the saving is of God. ie based on His word the action becomes one of faith which saves.

Lets consider Noah, the first instance of "chen" the transliteration of the Hebrew grace, ... although grace is present in the garden.

You mentioned Abraham as one having a "negative" work. Yet the same is seen with all in the Hebrews 11 passage of faith.

The Hebrew language is not as abstract as Greek, the origins of words are much more literal and vivid. The words have a concrete element to them based on the culture. Most early biblical words was based on the agriculture and nomadic lifestyle of the people. ie it has a reference of sorts.

To find grace in the sight of someone was to be welcomed into the tent, to encamp, with them resulting in acceptance and protection as they shared their generosity and hospitality.

Noah is accepted and protected by God. In a sense being welcomed into "God's tent". This generosity on God's part was responded to by Noah. What is striking and creates the greatest of contrast is to be welcomed by God, ie. the Divine Creator accepts the lowly creature, inclining to the need of the creature. It is more than humbling to know that you have received shelter from the Divine God. This knowing is what causes one to respond appropriately. You become aware of your creaturely status (inferior)and God's status (superior).

We know that Noah had faith (not just an abstract feeling or an intellectual assent, but an action) or what you've termed a "negative work"?. He responded... When he heard from God, in holy fear by building the Ark, resulting in his salvation and that of his family. He was fully persuaded that God would do what He said He would, because He understood God is who He says He is. (The question we should be constantly reflecting on is, are we fully persuaded He is?, If we are, we will do as He says)

Some theologians who have looked at the Hebrew language a lot more thoroughly has also likened the word "chen" to one who finds an "oasis to rest", To me this word picture makes sense for Noah, especially since everything concerning him and his journey is related to rest.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, it's always good to question and study for oneself.

Sure, but I think grace is in itself an exhaustive word.

did you read my three posts concerning grace?

Can you show me any place in scripture where grace and works. are mutually together. or where grace can be merited?

I am just asking, because that is the discussion concerning grace I am trying to discuss.. Can grace me merited?

Noted

The response to God's grace through faith. The response acknowledges and demonstrates that the saving is of God. ie based on His word the action becomes one of faith which saves.

Lets consider Noah, the first instance of "chen" the transliteration of the Hebrew grace, ... although grace is present in the garden.

You mentioned Abraham as one having a "negative" work. Yet the same is seen with all in the Hebrews 11 passage of faith.

The Hebrew language is not as abstract as Greek, the origins of words are much more literal and vivid. The words have a concrete element to them based on the culture. Most early biblical words was based on the agriculture and nomadic lifestyle of the people. ie it has a reference of sorts.

To find grace in the sight of someone was to be welcomed into the tent, to encamp, with them resulting in acceptance and protection as they shared their generosity and hospitality.

Noah is accepted and protected by God. In a sense being welcomed into "God's tent". This generosity on God's part was responded to by Noah. What is striking and creates the greatest of contrast is to be welcomed by God, ie. the Divine Creator accepts the lowly creature, inclining to the need of the creature. It is more than humbling to know that you have received shelter from the Divine God. This knowing is what causes one to respond appropriately. You become aware of your creaturely status (inferior)and God's status (superior).

We know that Noah had faith (not just an abstract feeling or an intellectual assent, but an action) or what you've termed a "negative work"?. He responded... When he heard from God, in holy fear by building the Ark, resulting in his salvation and that of his family. He was fully persuaded that God would do what He said He would, because He understood God is who He says He is. (The question we should be constantly reflecting on is, are we fully persuaded He is?, If we are, we will do as He says)

Some theologians who have looked at the Hebrew language a lot more thoroughly has also likened the word "chen" to one who finds an "oasis to rest", To me this word picture makes sense for Noah, especially since everything concerning him and his journey is related to rest.

I like this. Jesus said come and he will give you rest.

And it is true. we rest in God and his promises.

the greatest thing that brings us this rest is the gift of salvation God has given us, Based on on our work, but on his work. and our faith in him.

That is why Paul said, all these tribulations ore but a momentary light affliction. He rested in God. why? He understood the grace of God and trusted God.

 

[Clare73]

You did not answer my question.

Can a word God put in his word be used in a way which is opposite of its true ,meaning,.

As for your example. I was dead in sin, I was made alive, that is born again spiritually..

Actually, an existing being going from death to life is resurrection.

Birth is from non-existence to existence.

I am not sure how that would be an opposite meaning from what it really means, it is perfectly in line with the normal meaning of the word

There is no "normal" meaning of born again.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Actually, an existing being going from death to life is resurrection.

its also new birth.

In john 3 the literal meaning of the word is to be born a second time, or another birth. He is speaking about a birth other than his natural birth.

that which is born of flesh is flesh..(natural)

that which is born of spirit is spirit (new birth or regeneration or given life from that which was dead)

Birth is from non-existence to existence.

There is no "normal" meaning of born again.

I disagree, in part. I understand there is no normal meaning to born again, but if we read the passage, we can see what Jesus meant about being born a second time



Jesus said those who are born again will never perish and have eternal life.

they went from a state of condemnation (spiritual death) to no longer being condemned (new life)

 

[Clare73]

its also new birth.

Actually, birth is about a being coming into existence for the first time.

Resurrection is about an existing being going from death to life.

I disagree, in part. I understand there is no normal meaning to born again, but if we read the passage, we can see what Jesus meant about being born a second time

That is the point.

The issue is parallel meanings between the natural and the spiritual.
Human conception/birth is a coming into existence.
In the natural, there is no parallel meaning of coming into existence twice, as there is in the spiritual "born again."

 

[timothyu]

In the natural, there is no parallel meaning of coming into existence twice

Cannot one transcend in character from self-orientated to otherness, coming into a new existence? That transcendence need not be spiritual but a simple physical manifestation.

 

[roman2819]

What I wonder is time and again, church sermons tell us something like this: "When we pray, we need to pray in God's will, then He will answer". When we keep listening to such sermons, does any of you question if it can be done? Do you think others can pray in His will but you don't know? Or If you know that many Christians could not pray in God's will, do you ask what if the sermon preaching is not correct? I believe no one know how to pray in God's will even though they try -- and this is our common and collective experience.

 

[timothyu]

does any of you question if it can be done

God's will is we serve others, not our selfishness. So praying accordingly is for others, not personal prosperity

 

[Clare73]

God's will is we serve others, not our selfishness. So praying accordingly is for others, not personal prosperity

Maintenance of one's well-being is not selfishness.

 

[timothyu]

Maintenance of one's well-being is not selfishness.

Maintenance being the key word, overriding over-indulgence and selfishness, the root of all sin

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Actually, birth is about a being coming into existence for the first time.

Resurrection is about an existing being going from death to life.

Jesus said that us coming alive spiritually is being born again.

That is the point.

The issue is parallel meanings between the natural and the spiritual.
Human conception/birth is a coming into existence.
In the natural, there is no parallel meaning of coming into existence twice, as there is in the spiritual "born again."

one of the defenitions of "born" in john 3 is to become the parent of.

since we are adopted by God. he becomes our parent.. so the term fits.

another one is to be born from above..