The Church started in the wilderness

[Doug Brents]

Doug, not all prophecies about Jesus were fulfilled, what about the prophecies of his second coming to restore the remnants of Israel see Jeremiah and below;

Zechariah 14:4-9 (BSB):

This did not happened has it?
what about;

Isaiah 9:6-7 (BSB):

Matthew 24:30-31 (BSB):



Luke 21:25-28 (BSB):


None of these prophecies were fulfilled so Yes, the Moral Law, the Ten Commandments are still valid today.

If those were part of what He was talking about, then He could not have caused Gal 4:21-5:7 to be written. But He did have that passage written, and it says clearly that the OT is out, the NT is in, and we are not slaves of the OT, but children of the NT promise.

 

[guevaraj]

the OT is out, the NT is in, and we are not slaves of the OT, but children of the NT promise.

Brother, it is the system of law of Judaism that Jesus has freed us from by comparing the slavery of Judaism to sin, with Hagar, because Judaism replaced God's law with human law that keeps the sin, that obeying God's law was meant to remove. All Judaism had to do was obey God as a son of Sarah in God's original plan, made even clearer by Jesus, who obeyed all the laws of God and not the laws of Judaism as our example Spirit to do likewise.

So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law (of Judaism). (Galatians 5:1 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

Here is the evidence that when Paul uses the word law, unqualified, Paul is referring to the law of Judaism by comparing Judaism to Hagar.

Tell me, you who want to live under the law (the laws of Judaism that does not remove sin), do you know what the law actually says? (The law says what is sin) The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise (the promise to remove sin from our character). But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them (Judaism is enslaved in sin because they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin). And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin) to the law (added by the translators, not found in the original). But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman (free from sin), and she is our mother. As Isaiah said, “Rejoice, O childless woman, you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children than the woman who lives with her husband!” And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise (the promise to remove sin from our character), just like Isaac. But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law (the laws of Judaism that does not remove sin), just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit. But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

Paul makes it clear in the following passage that he wants obedience to God and not obedience to sin. Sin is present in Judaism's human laws that sabotage God's laws to not remove sin, as made clear by Jesus in the next passage, where Judaism's human laws instead of God's laws "shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people's faces".

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

Hagar's son to Abraham came from the human will and not from God's will to give Abraham a son through Hagar. Hagar is not the will of God expressed on Mount Sinai but the "human attempt" to fulfill the will of God expressed on Mount Sinai. Therefore, it is not God's laws that are tied to Hagar, but human laws found in Judaism that come from sinful "blind guides" to use laws to accomplish God's will expressed on Mount Sinai, that Jesus says in the following passage: "shut the door of the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces". It is not God's laws expressed on Mount Sinai that "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces", it is Judaism's human replacement laws for God's laws that "shut the door of the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces".

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Doug Brents]

Brother, something of all these former empires still remains in the Roman Catholic Church until Jesus destroys her at His return. “She will be completely consumed by fire” when the Lord “judges” her at His return.

Then I heard another voice calling from heaven, “Come away from her, my people. Do not take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her. For her sins are piled as high as heaven, and God remembers her evil deeds. Do to her as she has done to others. Double her penalty for all her evil deeds. She brewed a cup of terror for others, so brew twice as much for her. She glorified herself and lived in luxury, so match it now with torment and sorrow. She boasted in her heart, ‘I am queen on my throne. I am no helpless widow, and I have no reason to mourn.’ Therefore, these plagues will overtake her in a single day—death and mourning and famine. She will be completely consumed by fire, for the Lord God who judges her is mighty. (Revelation 18:4-8 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Sure "something of these former empires" still remains. But that does not matter. Jesus' Kingdom was established exactly when God said it would be. The prophecy in Dan 9, which is a mirror of the one in Dan 2, gives the timeline. 50 weeks (of years) after the order to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, the Messiah would come and establish His Kingdom. That is 350 years. And assuming He would not come fully grown, but be born as an infant, 30 years earlier than that the Magi from the east (presumably the remnants of Babylon and Medo-Persia where Daniel had given his prophecy) came looking for the one born King, and found Jesus (Yeshua).

 

[Doug Brents]

Brother, it is the system of law of Judaism that Jesus has freed us from by comparing the slavery of Judaism to sin, with Hagar, because Judaism replaced God's law with human law that keeps the sin, that obeying God's law was meant to remove. All Judaism had to do was obey God as a son of Sarah in God's original plan, made even clearer by Jesus, who obeyed all the laws of God and not the laws of Judaism as our example Spirit to do likewise.

Sorry, but Paul never once mentions any man-made laws or anything to do with Judaism. He talks about the covenant that came from Mt Sinai. The same covenant that was renewed with Moses, that was the same covenant that was renewed with Jacob, and Isaac before him, and Abraham before him, all the way back to Adam and Eve. Same covenant being renewed over and over with each successive generation. But in the New Covenant we have exactly that, and NEW Covenant, not a renewal of the Old, but a completely different covenant.

Here is the evidence that when Paul uses the word law, unqualified, Paul is referring to the law of Judaism by comparing Judaism to Hagar.

Tell me, you who want to live under the law (the laws of Judaism that does not remove sin), do you know what the law actually says? (The law says what is sin) The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise (the promise to remove sin from our character). But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them (Judaism is enslaved in sin because they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin). And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin) to the law (added by the translators, not found in the original). But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman (free from sin), and she is our mother. As Isaiah said, “Rejoice, O childless woman, you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children than the woman who lives with her husband!” And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise (the promise to remove sin from our character), just like Isaac. But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law (the laws of Judaism that does not remove sin), just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit. But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

So you are "FIXING" Scripture now? Hmm. I don't think God needs your help "fixing" His Word. It means what it says. I will stick with what God's Word says, thanks.
"Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is speaking allegorically, for these women are two covenants: one coming from Mount Sinai giving birth to children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, infertile one, you who do not give birth;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For the children of the desolate one are more numerous
Than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the son who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one who was born according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Drive out the slave woman and her son,
For the son of the slave woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brothers and sisters, we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman."
We are not children of the slave woman (the Old Covenant), but are children of the free woman (the New Covenant).

 

[guevaraj]

We are not children of the slave woman (the Old Covenant)

Brother, if you disobey God’s law, you are still a slave to sin like Hagar. Hagar’s slavery is to “sin,” and God’s law given through Sarah is what frees us from our slavery to “sin.” Jesus’ forgiveness only gives us as many opportunities as we need to grow in obedience to God’s law, which is what frees us from our slavery to “sin.”

Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living. Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:16-23 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

Sure "something of these former empires" still remains. But that does not matter. Jesus' Kingdom was established exactly when God said it would be. The prophecy in Dan 9, which is a mirror of the one in Dan 2, gives the timeline. 50 weeks (of years) after the order to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, the Messiah would come and establish His Kingdom. That is 350 years. And assuming He would not come fully grown, but be born as an infant, 30 years earlier than that the Magi from the east (presumably the remnants of Babylon and Medo-Persia where Daniel had given his prophecy) came looking for the one born King, and found Jesus (Yeshua).

Brother, the rock does not strike the statue in Rome with the birth of Jesus on the legs of iron, but it strikes after Rome at the feet of iron and clay of the second coming of Jesus with what is left of Rome in the destruction of the Roman Catholic Church.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Doug Brents]

Brother, the rock does not strike the statue in Rome with the birth of Jesus on the legs of iron, but it strikes after Rome at the feet of iron and clay of the second coming of Jesus with what is left of Rome in the destruction of the Roman Catholic Church.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Your picture has it wrong. The feet of iron and clay are still part of the Roman empire in the first century. The stone that crushed the statue was the first coming of Jesus, when He established His Kingdom (the Church) and triumphed over Satan and death.

Brother, if you disobey God’s law, you are still a slave to sin like Hagar. Hagar’s slavery is to “sin,” and God’s law given through Sarah is what frees us from our slavery to “sin.” Jesus’ forgiveness only gives us as many opportunities as we need to grow in obedience to God’s law, which is what frees us from our slavery to “sin.”

Sin is not the Old Covenant. The OC was the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc., and it contained the Law that was given at Mt Sinai. God through Paul is not talking about the sin, here. He is talking about the Law of Moses that came from Mt Sinai. Sin did not start at Mt Sinai.

 

[guevaraj]

Sin did not start at Mt Sinai.

Brother, you do not know you are in sin until the law tells you that you are in sin.

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good. But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes. So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. (Romans 7:7-14 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Doug Brents]

Brother, you do not know you are in sin until the law tells you that you are in sin.

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good. But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes. So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. (Romans 7:7-14 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

ROTFLMBO

Of course we don't know what sin is until we know the law of God, because sin is the breaking of His law. But we did not receive the Law of God for the first time from Mt Sinai. God gave Adam and Eve a single Law, "Tend the Garden, and don't eat from the one tree in the center of the Garden." They knew what sin was from that instant on. Incest was not a sin until God made it a sin in the Law of Moses. Abraham did not sin in marrying his half sister, because at that time it was not yet sin.

You are trying to make the Law of Moses still be applicable today, but you are failing miserably. The Law of Moses, a part of the Old Covenant, was removed, and is no longer applicable to people living today as the rules by which we must live.

 

[guevaraj]

You are trying to make the Law of Moses still be applicable today, but you are failing miserably. The Law of Moses, a part of the Old Covenant, was removed, and is no longer applicable to people living today as the rules by which we must live.

Brother, humans have used the Holy Spirit as a replacement for the law of God when that is not what Paul teaches. The Spirit Paul speaks of is external to us in Jesus for us to model as one would look into a mirror and not the internal Holy Spirit. Jesus is our model Spirit to do likewise! In the following passage, Paul is not talking about a hidden inside "Spirit", but an externally visible "Spirit" in Jesus, because God is Spirit. Where we must "image" or copy our selves to the pattern of Jesus' example, as we "see" our lives "reflect" Jesus as we would see ourselves externally in a mirror, comparing ourselves to Jesus' in the flesh model of obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience, which leads to death in a "veil" of obedience to replacement human traditions that disobey the Ten Commandments, contradicting the purpose of the Ten Commandments to remove sin. A "veil", like our modern Sunday human tradition, replaces God's Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment, when Paul tells us such replacements that keep the sin God's Ten Commandments are meant to remove kill and only obeying the Ten Commandments as Jesus shows us how to obey them saves from sin. Notice the external nature of reflecting what we see in Jesus in the flesh is an external example-Spirit, an external-visible example "Spirit" of obedience. Jesus, in the flesh life of obedience, is the "Spirit" to "image", because Jesus is a visible in the flesh "Spirit" for us to model after His obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience.

But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow who obeyed properly the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) removed can see and reflect the glory (character) of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Doug Brents]

Brother, humans have used the Holy Spirit as a replacement for the law of God when that is not what Paul teaches. The Spirit Paul speaks of is external to us in Jesus for us to model as one would look into a mirror and not the internal Holy Spirit. Jesus is our model Spirit to do likewise! In the following passage, Paul is not talking about a hidden inside "Spirit", but an externally visible "Spirit" in Jesus, because God is Spirit. Where we must "image" or copy our selves to the pattern of Jesus' example, as we "see" our lives "reflect" Jesus as we would see ourselves externally in a mirror, comparing ourselves to Jesus' in the flesh model of obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience, which leads to death in a "veil" of obedience to replacement human traditions that disobey the Ten Commandments, contradicting the purpose of the Ten Commandments to remove sin. A "veil", like our modern Sunday human tradition, replaces God's Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment, when Paul tells us such replacements that keep the sin God's Ten Commandments are meant to remove kill and only obeying the Ten Commandments as Jesus shows us how to obey them saves from sin. Notice the external nature of reflecting what we see in Jesus in the flesh is an external example-Spirit, an external-visible example "Spirit" of obedience. Jesus, in the flesh life of obedience, is the "Spirit" to "image", because Jesus is a visible in the flesh "Spirit" for us to model after His obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience.

But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow who obeyed properly the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) removed can see and reflect the glory (character) of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The Spirit that Paul speaks of lives within my hearth. He is not external to me or anyone else who is in Christ.

Quit adding to the Word of God. Your commentary is meaningless, and less than worthless in this conversation. The veil has nothing to do with "not knowing they were disobeying the ten commandments" (lol). Anyone can read the ten commandments and know if they are breaking them or not. The veil is removed in Jesus, ONLY in Jesus. It could not have been removed before Him, because it is the New Covenant that frees us from the Old Covenant and the slavery it engenders.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

If those were part of what He was talking about, then He could not have caused Gal 4:21-5:7 to be written. But He did have that passage written, and it says clearly that the OT is out, the NT is in, and we are not slaves of the OT, but children of the NT promise.

Doug I will write back to you about this hopefully today if not tomorrow and will prove to you once and for all that the 10 commandments are valid. I will use scripture only. After that if you do not still get it I will let you go your own way. I just want to help you understand noting else.

I will just tell you this for now;
Paul's use of the Hagar and Sarah story in Galatians 4 is problematic. This story is primarily about two nations—Ishmael and Isaac—and not about the Old and New Covenants. The leap Paul makes to apply this historical, familial narrative to a theological point about law versus grace seems far-fetched, especially when we interpret it literally. Verify yourself in the text of the old testament. and see Paul is Not infallible just a man like you and me. GOD's and Jesus words and what he said is always right and the truth.

Blessings.

 

[Bro.T]

What happens to a contract in which all the requirements for all parties involved have been fully fulfilled and accomplished? It becomes null and void. Why? Because there is no longer anything unfulfilled in the contract and it no longer has any power. That is what Jesus did to the Old Covenant. He fulfilled it completely for man's part, and the Father fulfilled it completely for God's part. It is now null and void, because there is no longer any part of it that still requires fulfilling by either side.

No, that is not what He said. He said it will not pass away until all of it is fulfilled. It was completely fulfilled by Jesus on the cross. That is why He was able to say, "It is finished!"

Jesus had to fulfill the Law perfectly. Keep every commandment, and not break a single one. Because even breaking the smallest commandment would make Him a breaker of the whole Law (James 2:10).

And yes, the Law came from the Old Covenant/Testament. And as Gal 4:21-5:7 says, the Old Covenant (complete with the Law) was wholly and totally cast out. Not just parts of it, but the whole covenant was fulfilled and thrown out.

Why does the bible seem to teach that the law has been done away with, if we must still keep the commandments? When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Remember the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

 

[guevaraj]

The veil has nothing to do with "not knowing they were disobeying the ten commandments" (lol).

Brother, here it is in Jesus' own words that they were disobeying God's commandments by obeying instead their own human traditions. Most Christians are doing no better than Judaism, even though the "veil" of Judaism's disobedience has been lifted by Jesus in the following passage! What Jesus has done is to fulfill the promise of putting the law of God in our hearts by being our example of how to obey God's law fully, unlike Judaism's disobedience of the Ten Commandments. You do not have God's law in your heart when you break the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment, following the human tradition of the Roman Catholic Church of replacing it with Sunday, just like Jesus spoke of Judaism's disobedience of replacing God's law with their own "man-made ideas as commandments from God" in the following passage.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here is a sermon (start at 8:50) that breaks down the two covenants Paul is contrasting in Galatians line by line. Paul is easily misunderstood and the consequences of doing so are huge 2 Peter 3:16 - why its really important to reconcile Paul to Christ, but sadly so many people will erase what Christ taught and lived for our example, died for our sins, in favor of misunderstood Paul. Paul can't save us only Jesus saves. If we abide in Him we will keep His commandments just as Jesus did John 15:10 , and follow His example- so same commandments 1 John 2:6 there is no other way. John 15:4

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug I will write back to you about this hopefully today if not tomorrow and will prove to you once and for all that the 10 commandments are valid. I will use scripture only. After that if you do not still get it I will let you go your own way. I just want to help you understand noting else.

I will just tell you this for now;
Paul's use of the Hagar and Sarah story in Galatians 4 is problematic. This story is primarily about two nations—Ishmael and Isaac—and not about the Old and New Covenants.

Ahh, so now you are rewriting God's story that Paul wrote because God got it wrong. I'm glad we have you here to have you clear this up for Him.

The leap Paul makes to apply this historical, familial narrative to a theological point about law versus grace seems far-fetched, especially when we interpret it literally.

What does God say through Paul? This is not literal; it is an allegory.

Verify yourself in the text of the old testament. and see Paul is Not infallible just a man like you and me. GOD's and Jesus words and what he said is always right and the truth.

Blessings.

Paul was writing God's Words. This is not Paul's idea. There is absolutely no difference between what Moses wrote, what Luke says that Jesus said, and what Paul wrote. All of them are Scripture (God's words written by His chosen instruments).

There is no problem with the story that God gave to Paul to write. It is not about two nations. It is about the two Covenants, and uses the two women and their children to illustrate the point. Hagar is the Old Covenant, and Sarah is the New Covenant. Hagar was temporary, and was driven out of the camp. Sarah is permanent. Hagar is the slave and mother of slaves. Sarah is free and the mother of the heir(s). In Christ, we are set free from the Old Covenant, and are fully co-heirs with Jesus of the New Covenant.

 

[Doug Brents]

Why does the bible seem to teach that the law has been done away with, if we must still keep the commandments? When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

There is no distinction in Scripture between what you want to call the different parts of the Law. It is just "the Law". There is no division between the sacrificial laws, the priesthood laws, and the "moral" laws. They are all just "the Law". And all of the Law (in fact all of the Covenant of which the Law is only a part) was completely removed.

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Again, there is no limitation here of the removing of only part of the Law. The whole of the Law was removed. Heb 7:12 makes it very clear, that the changing of the priesthood necessitates a change of the Law as well. You can't have a change of one without the complete changing of the other.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Remember the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

Yes, we do still have to follow God's moral laws, but only the ones that are part of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant has been fully, completely, and totally removed and replaced with the New Covenant. We are only subject to the commands, restrictions, and mandates of the New Covenant; and are not beholding to any part of the Old Covenant. This means that we are not subject to any of the 10 commandments, although under the New Covenant we are told not to murder, or covet, or worship other gods, or steal, etc. (the verses that state these in the New Covenant were posted previously). But there is no command anywhere in the NT that makes the keeping of the sabbath part of what we must do.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

Quit "fixing" Scripture. God does not need your help "fixing" His Word. I cannot have any kind of conversation with you until you read and accept what the Word says without "fixing" it at every turn. When you quit "fixing" His Word, then we can talk again.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

There is no distinction in Scripture between what you want to call the different parts of the Law. It is just "the Law". There is no division between the sacrificial laws, the priesthood laws, and the "moral" laws. They are all just "the Law". And all of the Law (in fact all of the Covenant of which the Law is only a part) was completely removed.

Again, there is no limitation here of the removing of only part of the Law. The whole of the Law was removed. Heb 7:12 makes it very clear, that the changing of the priesthood necessitates a change of the Law as well. You can't have a change of one without the complete changing of the other.

Yes, we do still have to follow God's moral laws, but only the ones that are part of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant has been fully, completely, and totally removed and replaced with the New Covenant. We are only subject to the commands, restrictions, and mandates of the New Covenant; and are not beholding to any part of the Old Covenant. This means that we are not subject to any of the 10 commandments, although under the New Covenant we are told not to murder, or covet, or worship other gods, or steal, etc. (the verses that state these in the New Covenant were posted previously). But there is no command anywhere in the NT that makes the keeping of the sabbath part of what we must do.

You cannot pick and choose what laws are in the new covenant, they are the same as the old covenant period. Jeremiah 31 proves this, Jesus also spoke the same. the moral laws are the 10 Commandments as GOD wrote them.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NKJV):
"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

In the bible there are important principles to help us in discerning what to do in case there are contradictions, God is timeless and knows what we need way before we need them it is why he has written a way to be absolutely certain we follow His words and no one else.

The test for determining whether a prophet is truly sent by God focuses on their adherence to God's commandments and their message's consistency with His law. A critical passage is Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (NKJV), which warns against prophets or dreamers who perform signs or wonders yet encourage people to turn away from God's commandments. The verse says;

"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst."

Even if a prophet's predictions or signs come true, they are false if their message leads people away from obedience to God.

God’s commandments are the ultimate standard for judging a prophet’s authenticity. A true prophet will never steer people away from God’s law or encourage disobedience. Their role is to guide people back to faithfulness and a deeper relationship with God. The test of a prophet is not solely their ability to perform miracles or predict the future, but whether their message aligns with God's commandments and leads others to worship Him alone.

By saying you do not have to obey the 10 commandments you make Paul a false prophet that takes away people from the moral laws that includes all of the Ten Commandments.

Throughout the Gospels, Jesus consistently calls people to follow Him. He alone is the way to eternal life and a restored relationship with God. In Matthew 4:19, He says, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men," inviting Simon Peter and Andrew to leave their livelihoods and dedicate themselves to His mission. In Matthew 16:24, Jesus expands on this call, teaching, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." He highlights the cost of discipleship, requiring self-denial and full commitment. Similarly, in John 8:12, He proclaims, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life," showing that following Him leads to truth, spiritual enlightenment, and life.

Jesus also makes it clear that He is the only way to God. In John 14:6, He declares, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." This exclusivity emphasizes that following Jesus is not merely one option among many but the sole path to salvation. In John 10:27, He identifies His followers as His sheep, saying, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." He promises that those who follow Him are His, protected and guided by His care.

Jesus calls us to follow Him alone in everything—His teachings, actions, and commandments. He does not simply ask for belief but for a complete transformation of life that mirrors His example and obedience to God. To Believe in Him and follow also means to trust Him as the light and truth, to take up the cross of self-denial, and to reject any competing voice that leads away from His way. By following Him, we honor God fully, as Jesus is the perfect embodiment of God’s will and the ultimate guide for our lives.

I will say no more unless You have a specific question for me

Blessings.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You cannot pick and choose what laws are in the new covenant, they are the same as the old covenant period. Jeremiah 31 proves this, Jesus also spoke the same. the moral laws are the 10 Commandments as GOD wrote them.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NKJV):
"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

In the bible there are important principles to help us in discerning what to do in case there are contradictions, God is timeless and knows what we need way before we need them it is why he has written a way to be absolutely certain we follow His words and no one else.

The test for determining whether a prophet is truly sent by God focuses on their adherence to God's commandments and their message's consistency with His law. A critical passage is Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (NKJV), which warns against prophets or dreamers who perform signs or wonders yet encourage people to turn away from God's commandments. The verse says;

"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst."

Even if a prophet's predictions or signs come true, they are false if their message leads people away from obedience to God.

God’s commandments are the ultimate standard for judging a prophet’s authenticity. A true prophet will never steer people away from God’s law or encourage disobedience. Their role is to guide people back to faithfulness and a deeper relationship with God. The test of a prophet is not solely their ability to perform miracles or predict the future, but whether their message aligns with God's commandments and leads others to worship Him alone.

By saying you do not have to obey the 10 commandments you make Paul a false prophet that takes away people from the moral laws that includes all of the Ten Commandments.

Throughout the Gospels, Jesus consistently calls people to follow Him. He alone is the way to eternal life and a restored relationship with God. In Matthew 4:19, He says, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men," inviting Simon Peter and Andrew to leave their livelihoods and dedicate themselves to His mission. In Matthew 16:24, Jesus expands on this call, teaching, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." He highlights the cost of discipleship, requiring self-denial and full commitment. Similarly, in John 8:12, He proclaims, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life," showing that following Him leads to truth, spiritual enlightenment, and life.

Jesus also makes it clear that He is the only way to God. In John 14:6, He declares, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." This exclusivity emphasizes that following Jesus is not merely one option among many but the sole path to salvation. In John 10:27, He identifies His followers as His sheep, saying, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." He promises that those who follow Him are His, protected and guided by His care.

Jesus calls us to follow Him alone in everything—His teachings, actions, and commandments. He does not simply ask for belief but for a complete transformation of life that mirrors His example and obedience to God. To Believe in Him and follow also means to trust Him as the light and truth, to take up the cross of self-denial, and to reject any competing voice that leads away from His way. By following Him, we honor God fully, as Jesus is the perfect embodiment of God’s will and the ultimate guide for our lives.

I will say no more unless You have a specific question for me

Blessings.

Amen!

GOD said He would write His law in the New Covenant Heb 8:10
God in His own Words- spoken by His own mouth, written by His own finger claimed the unit of Ten as My commandments Exo 20:6 as if man is above God to pick and choose what is His law or not. Or tell God when is His holy day and ignore what He said in His own Words Isa 58:13 Exo 20:10 that He never took back, He changes not.
The Sabbath is a law of God thus saith the Lord Exo 20:6 no greater Authority than God which is who we are to serve, no other.

Why we see the Sabbath all throughout the NT kept by everyone we are told to follow- kept by Paul decades after the Cross because that is what a servant of God does, they follow Him..

This truly cannot be made any plainer

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Are these different commandments than what Jesus kept? Of course not

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

There is only one Door and that is Jesus, no other way

John 15: 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.