The parable of the fig tree

[claninja]

When asked about the timing of the destruction of the temple and what the sign of the parousia was to be, Jesus responded by listing several events leading up to the "coming of the son of man on the clouds" --> persecution, a rise in false prophets/christs deceiving, many falling away, gospel going to the world, abomination of desolation, great tribulation, etc.....

Jesus then concludes with a parable --> just as when a fig tree becomes tender and sprouts leaves, THEN they know summer is near, SO ALSO when they see certain events (persecution, false prophets/christs deceiving, many falling away, gospel going to the world, abomination of desolation, great tribulation, etc.....), THEN they know He is near, right at the door.

Matthew 24:32-33 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

So based on Jesus' words, as recorded by the gospel authors, it can certainly be known that His coming is near when the events of the olivet discourse occur.

Question #1: IF one can know when the coming is near based on seeing the events of the olivet discourse play out, Did the authors of the NT live through the events of the olivet discourse when they said it was the last hour, the parousia was near, the coming was in a little while without delay, it was the end of all things, etc...????

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

James 5:8-9 you also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

Hebrews 10:37 For, Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Question #2: IF the NT authors did not live through the events of the olivet discourse, why did they say the coming was near? in other words, Why wouldn't they just respond like Paul, that the coming was not near because certain things hadn't happened yet (2 thessalonians 2:2-3)????


Question #3: IF the NT authors cannot declare it is near, who gets to decide or who has the authority to declare what events of the olivet discourse indicate its near like a fig tree sprouting leaves, especially considering all of failed predictions ??? --> (Predictions and claims for the Second Coming - Wikipedia)

 

[d taylor]

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The coming is near, as in the coming will happen in this age or at the end of this age. And not at another age of time.

 

[claninja]

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The coming is near, as in the coming will happen in this age or at the end of this age. And not at another age of time.

How does your statement address the parable of the fig tree?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When asked about the timing of the destruction of the temple and what the sign of the parousia was to be, Jesus responded by listing several events leading up to the "coming of the son of man on the clouds" --> persecution, a rise in false prophets/christs deceiving, many falling away, gospel going to the world, abomination of desolation, great tribulation, etc.....

Jesus then concludes with a parable --> just as when a fig tree becomes tender and sprouts leaves, THEN they know summer is near, SO ALSO when they see certain events (persecution, false prophets/christs deceiving, many falling away, gospel going to the world, abomination of desolation, great tribulation, etc.....), THEN they know He is near, right at the door.

Matthew 24:32-33 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

So based on Jesus' words, as recorded by the gospel authors, it can certainly be known that His coming is near when the events of the olivet discourse occur.

Question #1: IF one can know when the coming is near based on seeing the events of the olivet discourse play out, Did the authors of the NT live through the events of the olivet discourse when they said it was the last hour, the parousia was near, the coming was in a little while without delay, it was the end of all things, etc...????

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

James 5:8-9 you also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

Hebrews 10:37 For, Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Question #2: IF the NT authors did not live through the events of the olivet discourse, why did they say the coming was near? in other words, Why wouldn't they just respond like Paul, that the coming was not near because certain things hadn't happened yet (2 thessalonians 2:2-3)????


Question #3: IF the NT authors cannot declare it is near, who gets to decide or who has the authority to declare what events of the olivet discourse indicate its near like a fig tree sprouting leaves, especially considering all of failed predictions ??? --> (Predictions and claims for the Second Coming - Wikipedia)

These aren't even valid questions in my view because they result from a faulty premise. The mistake you make that throws everything off track is that you assume the destruction of the temple and Christ's parousia had to happen at the same time. I can imagine that the disciples might have assumed that they would occur at the same time when they asked their questions because of how significant the temple was to them. But, Jesus has not yet come and the end of the age (in this temporal age, people get married and die - Luke 20:34-36) has not yet arrived. I believe that you can't possibly interpret the Olivet Discourse correctly, overall, if you either assume it's all about the past (related to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD), as preterists like you do, or that it's all about the future.

I believe the parousia has clearly not yet happened, so it makes no sense to interpret it as an event that happened in the past. Paul wrote about the parousia as well.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Greek: parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you want to claim that the parousia of Christ occurred in 70 AD, then you need to show how the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurred in 70 AD and how the gathering of Christ's people (the church) to Himself "in the air" happened in 70 AD. Those things clearly have not yet happened, so why would you not take that into account when interpreting the Olivet Discourse in relation to the parousia of Christ?

 

[d taylor]

How does your statement address the parable of the fig tree?

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Jesus is speaking of the generation that will be alive when signs of Jesus return, began to happen.

 

[claninja]

These aren't even valid questions in my view because they result from a faulty premise.

The premise of the OP is the parable of the fig tree and that Jesus says we can know when He is near based on certain signs --> Just as a when a fig tree sprouts leaves, you know summer is near, SO ALSO when all these things happen ( persecution, false prophets/christs deceiving, many falling away, gospel going to the world, abomination of desolation, great tribulation, etc.....), THEN they know He is near, right at the door.

Your claim is that the premise is faulty. So can you clarify what part of the above premise is faulty?

 

[claninja]

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Jesus is speaking of the generation that will be alive when signs of Jesus return, began to happen.

so the generation that sees the events of the olivet discourse will be able to KNOW Jesus is near, right at the door. Is that what you mean?

 

[d taylor]

so the generation that sees the events of the olivet discourse will be able to KNOW Jesus is near, right at the door. Is that what you mean?

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Yes the generation of Jews (believing) alive will see and will cry out for the return of The Messiah and then Jesus will return to fight for Israel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The premise of the OP is the parable of the fig tree and that Jesus says we can know when He is near based on certain signs --> Just as a when a fig tree sprouts leaves, you know summer is near, SO ALSO when all these things happen ( persecution, false prophets/christs deceiving, many falling away, gospel going to the world, abomination of desolation, great tribulation, etc.....), THEN they know He is near, right at the door.

Your claim is that the premise is faulty. So can you clarify what part of the above premise is faulty?

I'm not disagreeing with the premise that there would be certain things that would occur that would indicate that Christ's second coming was near. I'm saying that your premise in your original post that the destruction of the temple had to occur at the same time as Christ's coming is faulty.

You're not recognizing that Jesus talked about two different events in the Olivet Discourse. One was local or regional and related to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. The other is global and relates to His future second coming. So, those things that would indicate that His second coming was near do not include what happened before 70 AD.

Your insistence that the Olivet Discourse has to all be related to one event results in you trying to claim that the parousia of Christ already occurred even though it clearly has not. The parousia of Christ will be accompanied by the resurrection of the dead in Christ and our being gathered to Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). That has clearly not yet happened, so that has to be taken into account when interpreting the Olivet Discourse.

 

[claninja]

I'm saying that your premise in your original post that the destruction of the temple had to occur at the same time as Christ's coming is faulty.

The original post only references the disciples’ question of WHEN would the destruction of temple be and WHAT would be the sign of the parousia.

what’s faulty about that? Did the disciples not ask “when will these things be and what is the sign of your parousia?”

 

[claninja]

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Yes the generation of Jews (believing) alive will see and will cry out for the return of The Messiah and then Jesus will return to fight for Israel.

Ok, so if the generation that sees the events of the Olivet discourse will be able to KNOW that He is near, right at the door……..

Matthew 24:34 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door

……..then Why did James say Jesus’ coming was near, right at the door?

James 5:8-9 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

 

[d taylor]

Ok, so if the generation that sees the events of the Olivet discourse will be able to KNOW that He is near, right at the door……..

Matthew 24:34 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door

……..then Why did James say Jesus’ coming was near, right at the door?

James 5:8-9 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

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Because the events that set up for the return of Jesus can began at any time.

 

[claninja]

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Because the events that set up for the return of Jesus can began at any time.

So you seem to be implying that James said “the coming of the Lord is near and the judge is standing at the door” because the events of the Olivet discourse could occur at any time.


Let’s apply this to the parable of the fig tree:

1.) is the parable of the fig tree about recognizing summer is near WHEN a fig tree sprouts its leaves?

OR

2.) is the parable of the fig tree about recognizing summer is near BECAUSE AT ANY TIME the fig tree could sprout its leaves?

 

[keras]

Our Generation will live to see it all.

Luke 21:29-36 Jesus told them a parable: Look at the fig tree, as soon as it buds you can tell that summer is near. In the same way when you see all this happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is near. Truly, I tell you the present generation will live to see it all. My words will never pass away.
Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REBible

The present generation - or the generation present: the same thing. When they; those alive to see Judah become a nation again, we will know the end times are upon us.

The fig tree – Israel is the vine, Judah is the fig tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10. The parable of the fig tree applies to the House of Judah, Matthew 21:43. Therefore when Judah starts to bud, that is: becomes a nation again, as they formed the State of Israel in May 1948, then within that generation, [a lifetime of 70 to 80 years] the end times events will commence. Ezekiel 12:25

The great Day – The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the multi prophesied judgement/punishment of the nations, an event that will come unexpectedly, sudden and shocking all those who have failed to understand the Lord's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:5-12, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17

That Day will come upon everyone – There is no ‘rapture’ at this time, all will go through this judgement. Isaiah 24:1, Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8

Strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

The presence of the Son of Man – Jesus called Himself the ‘Son of Man’, when He was present on earth in a human body. This was necessary so as He could become our ‘kinsman Redeemer’. After the great Day of the Lord, when every faithful Christian has gathered in the holy Land, they will stand in His presence when the 144,000 are selected; Revelation 14:1. Then, later at His glorious Return, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords; His Name will be ‘The Word of God’. Revelation 19:13

 

[claninja]

Our Generation will live to see it all.

Luke 21:29-36 Jesus told them a parable: Look at the fig tree, as soon as it buds you can tell that summer is near. In the same way when you see all this happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is near. Truly, I tell you the present generation will live to see it all. My words will never pass away.
Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REBible

The present generation - or the generation present: the same thing. When they; those alive to see Judah become a nation again, we will know the end times are upon us.

The fig tree – Israel is the vine, Judah is the fig tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10. The parable of the fig tree applies to the House of Judah, Matthew 21:43. Therefore when Judah starts to bud, that is: becomes a nation again, as they formed the State of Israel in May 1948, then within that generation, [a lifetime of 70 to 80 years] the end times events will commence. Ezekiel 12:25

The great Day – The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the multi prophesied judgement/punishment of the nations, an event that will come unexpectedly, sudden and shocking all those who have failed to understand the Lord's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:5-12, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17

That Day will come upon everyone – There is no ‘rapture’ at this time, all will go through this judgement. Isaiah 24:1, Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8

Strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

The presence of the Son of Man – Jesus called Himself the ‘Son of Man’, when He was present on earth in a human body. This was necessary so as He could become our ‘kinsman Redeemer’. After the great Day of the Lord, when every faithful Christian has gathered in the holy Land, they will stand in His presence when the 144,000 are selected; Revelation 14:1. Then, later at His glorious Return, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords; His Name will be ‘The Word of God’. Revelation 19:13

Ok, so if the generation that sees the events of the Olivet discourse will be able to KNOW that He is near, right at the door……..

Matthew 24:34 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door

……..then Why did James say Jesus’ coming was near, right at the door?

James 5:8-9 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

 

[d taylor]

So you seem to be implying that James said “the coming of the Lord is near and the judge is standing at the door” because the events of the Olivet discourse could occur at any time.


Let’s apply this to the parable of the fig tree:

1.) is the parable of the fig tree about recognizing summer is near WHEN a fig tree sprouts its leaves?

OR

2.) is the parable of the fig tree about recognizing summer is near BECAUSE AT ANY TIME the fig tree could sprout its leaves?

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If you understood the second coming as James does, this would not bring up questions.

Jesus return is in two parts. The first part Jesus leaving heaven and gathering together the dead and alive believers in the clouds. Is sudden and unexpected.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


But when Jesus actually leaves the cloud and return back to the physical land and to fight for Israel. There will be signs, plenty of signs.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[claninja]

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If you understood the second coming as James does, this would not bring up questions.

Jesus return is in two parts. The first part Jesus leaving heaven and gathering together the dead and alive believers in the clouds. Is sudden and unexpected.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


But when Jesus actually leaves the cloud and return back to the physical land and to fight for Israel. There will be signs, plenty of signs.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Wouldn’t James understand the nearness of parousia the way Jesus explained it?

“WHEN a fig trees sprouts leaves, then you know summer is near. SO ALSO when you see all these things happening know he is near, right at the door?”


So with that being said, how should the parable of the fig tree be understood?


1.) Summer is near WHEN a fig tree sprouts its leaves

2.) Summer is near because AT ANY time a fig tree could sprout its leaves.

 

[d taylor]

Wouldn’t James understand the nearness of parousia the way Jesus explained it?

“WHEN a fig trees sprouts leaves, then you know summer is near. SO ALSO when you see all these things happening know he is near, right at the door?”


So with that being said, how should the parable of the fig tree be understood?


1.) Summer is near WHEN a fig tree sprouts its leaves

2.) Summer is near because AT ANY time a fig tree could sprout its leaves.

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James and Jesus agree.

 

[claninja]

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James and Jesus agree.

I agree.

Jesus taught that when the events of the Olivet discourse happen then they would know he was near, right at the door, just like when a fig tree sprouts leaves they know it’s summer.

So are you saying that James, agreeing with Jesus’ parable of the fig trees, said that the coming of the Lord is near, right at door because James saw the events of the Olivet discourse happening in his generation?

 

[d taylor]

I agree.

Jesus taught that when the events of the Olivet discourse happen then they would know he was near, right at the door, just like when a fig tree sprouts leaves they know it’s summer.

So are you saying that James, agreeing with Jesus’ parable of the fig trees, said that the coming of the Lord is near, right at door because James saw the events of the Olivet discourse happening in his generation?

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All believers have hoped Jesus would return in their life time. Some even actually believed Jesus would come in their lifetime and this is also addressed in The Bible.

And Peter wrote 2 Peter 3 addressing this