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Eternal punishment vs eternal life

Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Many religious and philosophical systems indeed have concepts similar to karma, emphasizing the idea that actions have consequences. Here's a brief overview:

Karma in Various Beliefs:​

  • Hinduism and Buddhism: Karma is a fundamental principle, where actions in this life affect one's future lives. Good deeds lead to positive outcomes, while bad deeds lead to negative ones.
  • Islam: While not called karma, the concept of actions having consequences is present. Good deeds are rewarded, and bad deeds are punished, both in this life and the hereafter.
  • Judaism: Similar to Islam, actions have consequences. The idea of "measure for measure" (middah k'neged middah) reflects this principle.
  • Law of Attraction: This modern spiritual belief suggests that positive or negative thoughts bring corresponding experiences into a person's life.

Christianity:​

  • Grace and Forgiveness: Christianity emphasizes grace, where salvation and forgiveness are gifts from God, not earned by deeds. However, Jesus does speak about the importance of living righteously and warns against lawlessness. For example, in Matthew 7:23, He says, "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
Honestly, I’m not really sure of how most of your thoughts here relate to God’s justice? It matters not to me if other religions invoke a similar concept in to their religion. Are you suggesting God borrowed this idea?

Anyway, I really am rather astounded at how many believers in ECT toss around Mathew 7:23 with such ease. It’s as if they don’t considered the fact that they may very well be speaking of themselves! They throw around other sayings of Jesus like “narrow is the gate …” and “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” etc … Does it not occur to them their family and friends and again, even themselves may very well be part of the condemned ones of whom they speak? It kills me how arrogantly they speak of required obedience or else; as if they are walking in a blameless manner. Giving no thought to how Jesus elevated the depth of the requirements of His teaching on the law.

Please tell me from Scripture what constitutes an “acceptable measure of obedience” to warrant a secure position of being counted as worthy of salvation? Keeping most of the commandments? Nope. Break one you break all of them. What constitutes “practicing” sin. Sinning the same sin 7 times a day. Week? Month?

When they share the Gospel and tell people of the glorious love of the Savior do they also tell them about this warning found in Mathew 7:23? Do they let them know right up front, that in spite of their commitment to Jesus and how obedient they are, it may not be enough? Are they told they will ultimately have to wait until judgement day to know if they made it?

What a most hopeless and burdensome gospel that is …
 
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Der Alte

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We do not really know what eternal means. Esp the people who reject science. We do not know much and they do not even want to know what we do know.
  • Importance of Knowledge: The Bible emphasizes the importance of seeking knowledge and wisdom, which are seen as gifts from God.
  • Consequences of Rejecting Knowledge: There are warnings about the consequences of rejecting knowledge, including destruction and folly.
  • Pursuit of Wisdom: Those who seek wisdom are blessed and gain understanding, whereas those who reject it are considered foolish.
These verses highlight the value the Bible places on knowledge, wisdom, and the willingness to learn and grow. We should all pray for wisdom, knowledge and understanding so we can all know God.
This quote does not address anything in my posts. Did you even read my posts discussing aionios above? How about this then, was Jesus lying or misinformed when he said twice "should not perish, but have eternal [αἰώνιον/aionion] life"? And there are 8 more vss. where Jesus defines aionios. and 15 vss. where the disciples define aionios.
John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αἰώνιον/aionion] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting[αἰώνιον,aionion] life.
 
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Der Alte

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... When they share the Gospel and tell people of the glorious love of the Savior do they also tell them about this warning found in Mathew 7:23? Do they let them know right up front, that in spite of their commitment to Jesus and how obedient they are, it may not be enough? Are they told they will ultimately have to wait until judgement day to know if they made it?

What a most hopeless and burdensome gospel that is …
This was not addressed to me but I read it is passing. What does the gospel that you present sound like?
 
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Diamond72

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was Jesus lying or misinformed
Really? Is that what you think of the sacred scriptures of God, they are filled with lies and misinformation. I think you need to have more respect for the word of God.
 
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Diamond72

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What does the gospel that you present sound like?
He just told you. People are always guilty of what they accuse others of. The Bible says as you judge you shall be judged we all in the end judge ourselves, not others. I warn people not to tell on themselves because they tell us things about themselves that I am sure they not want others to know.

Here is what AI copilot says about it.
  • Self-Reflection: These verses encourage self-reflection and humility, reminding us that we often see our own flaws in others.
  • Caution in Judgment: They warn against being quick to judge others, emphasizing that the way we judge will be used to judge us in return.
  • Divine Judgment: Ultimately, pd4judgment belongs to God, and we are reminded to focus on our own spiritual growth and integrity.

Practical Wisdom:​

Your advice not to reveal too much about oneself can be seen as a practical application of these teachings. It's about being mindful of our words and actions, recognizing our own imperfections, and extending grace to others.
 
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DamianWarS

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The question is this: What is G166-eternal punishment?
different language is used throughout the bible that typically contrasts eternal life so this perishing/punishing state is the antithesis to the eternal life that we all seek. eternal life, however, is not sustainable according to the laws of thermal dynamics. entropy sets in and we are all constantly moving towards a more disorganized state, which manifests as sickness, death, decay dust, etc...

looking at Gen 1:2 the world started in a disorganized state and then order was spoken into it as light (Gen 1:3) Gen 1:2 has a higher degree of entropy than Gen 1:3 and day 2 is even lower than day 1, day 3 lower still than day 2, etc... until we get to day 7 which is the antithesis to before light is spoken in every way (light is contrasted with darkness, order/disorder, complete/incomplete, full/empty, formed/unformed, rest/choas, etc...) day 7 is the lowest degree of entropy in the account, this is until sin happens and disorder enters the world again. Biblically speaking darkness, death, disorder, chaos, etc... parallels sin (and light, order, rest parallels righteousness/God) but in modern science, we would call this disorder entropy and perhaps this system of sin and entropy can be viewed the same.

to sustain eternal life you would need a constant flow of outside energy, if that flow is stopped we would succumb to entropic systems and start to decay, die, and return to dust (or whatever is after dust) entropy doesn't stop, everything is constantly moving towards a more disorganized state (even dust is) and perhaps that is what eternal punishment is, life that is fully released to entropic systems without any intervention. we may call this annihilation but it's not a "poof" then it's gone it's a judgment of forever decay and forever death and never a promise of rescue. Eternal life is also not just a "poof" you're now eternal and have incorruptible bodies but instead requires a constant flow of energy from an outside force (God) to counter the effects of entropy. I would say hell is upon us now and we are forever dying, but for the grace of God...
 
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tonychanyt

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Der Alte

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Really? Is that what you think of the sacred scriptures of God, they are filled with lies and misinformation. I think you need to have more respect for the word of God.
NO! I did NOT say or imply that "the sacred scriptures of God, ...are filled with lies and misinformation." But evidently you think so. In John 3:15, 16, which I quoted, Jesus said, "should not perish but have aionios life,." twice. I said that Jesus defined aionios and it should be translated "eternal/everlasting." But you evidently think that aionios does NOT mean eternal/everlasting. I also quoted 8 other vss, where Jesus defined aionios as eternal/everlasting.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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This was not addressed to me but I read it is passing. What does the gospel that you present sound like?
1st Corinthians 15:1-28 I think Paul‘s proclamation of the Gospel, the same one he received from Jesus, speaks clearly and without any confusion. Pretty straight forward and simple really. Don’t you agree? It’s all there. Nothing more and nothing less:

Why the Gospel? For the forgiveness of our sin
How Was it accomplished? Death, burial and resurrection
Authentication? Witnessed by the 12 and hundreds of others
Result? Oneness with the Father through Christ
Received by believing.

That is what I call Good News and a message I can deliver with boldness and confidence.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I prayed about this and the only thing God told me was that He is a God of absolute and perfect Justice. As perfect as the Laws of Physics in the Universe. The problem is when people try to claim God is not a God of Justice. His scales of justice are perfectly balanced.

My dad use to have me hire contractors for him because they would give me their best rate but they would often charge my dad a dishonest inflated amount. I always had honest scales and charged everyone a
I prayed about this and the only thing God told me was that He is a God of absolute and perfect Justice. As perfect as the Laws of Physics in the Universe. The problem is when people try to claim God is not a God of Justice. His scales of justice are perfectly balanced.

My dad use to have me hire contractors for him because they would give me their best rate but they would often charge my dad a dishonest inflated amount. I always had honest scales and charged everyone a reasonable amount.
Yes God is pure in his justice is perfect and fair because scripture says God hates unjust weight and measures. This is why I am in the Christian Universal Redemption camp because the God that is just and perfect and his justice is always correct, that makes Eternal Torture Chamber impossible. There is no way that a God who is love would send someone to an eternal punishment for a limited moral life his justice is always perfect and fair. God is long suffering and his will is that none parish and God always gets his will neither man’s or fallen angels have a will stronger than Gods. So your argument bolsters mine.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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The Bible says whosoever is willing. God does not save people who are not willing to be saved. God does not save people against their will. The invitation to salvation is extended to all, but each person must choose to accept it. I do not see "sodom" repenting and turning away from their sin. Sodom has indeed become synonymous with perversion. If they turn away from their perversion, they will be saved. Jesus makes it clear that lawless people are not saved. In many religious and spiritual traditions, rituals are seen as outward expressions of inner beliefs and commitments. The true power of these rituals often lies in what they symbolize and the faith and intentions behind them. For example Baptism: It's not the act of being submerged in water that saves, but what it represents: a public declaration of faith in Jesus Christ, symbolizing the washing away of sins and the new life in Christ.
Yes God only accepts a willing true heartfelt confession out of free will that is true. But if God is eternal and all those he creates have no end why do you believe that those people only have the time in the mortal body marred by sin to repent? No scripture says Gods done with you once your mortal body dies! What part of you gets “saved “ is it your mortal body or is it you , we are not our mortal body it’s only a vessel for us to start our life in. Our spirit is what gets saves not our bodies. I don’t understand why man has placed a time limit on when we can repent and accept Jesus, God is eternal he has all the time he needs to pursue every lost sheep until it is found. God has told us in scripture that “ every knee will bow and every tongue will joyfully and gladly confess that Jesus is Lord “ why does the Augustine branch of the church not believe God when he says these things?
 
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JonasDaniels

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Jesus suffered the sum total of all human suffering from the Garden of Gethsemane to the final moment that He gave up His Ghost. He literally carried the entire weight of ALL human suffering from Adam and Eve to the people of the final day. It's a fair conclusion.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

The Father experienced the Pain of seeing His precious Son utterly tortured by Creation.
The Son experienced the Pain of being cut off from His Father and the pain of being tortured by Creation.
God in totality experienced the Pain of being the Creator, Dying at the hands of His beloved Creation.

It's emotion that is incomprehensible!
It's emotion that "a god" could never have handled.
It's emotion that only THE ONLY LIVING GOD could overcome, victoriously.
I know this is an old thread, but your first line there literally brought me to tears.

"To see ones own sins, and to weep over them, the man who has this blessing, has everything"
Author unknown

"To know the price He paid", is all this fool could add to that statement.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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It's false
Universalism literally makes the Lord's sacrifice unnecessary.
Also please explain God's actions in the Old testament when he passed Judgement and destroyed nations for Sin...
If he was just going to give everyone eternal life.
Why does he call some goats?
In who's likeness is a Goat?
Jesus is a Lamb and his flock are likened to sheep..
The adversary's likeness is of a Goat or a Ram..
And what was goats used for in the Old testament?
Universalism has literally no basis other than wanting God to fit into a box that is pleasing to the flesh..
Why would the Lord tell us not to lean on our own understanding if there wasn't consequences?
Jesus and what he did is only reason anyone gets "saved" . John 12:47 " Jesus came to save the world not judge it" why do you believe he failed in his mission? As for the OT judgements they were a loving act. How is killing someone loving you ask? Because of Christian Universal Redemption I understand that God will "save" all his creation but its a process over time, all those people doing evil were adding up judgement for themselves in the lake of fire and the longer they live the more evil they would have to give account for so by God shortening the time in the mortal body the less judgement they will accrue so there time of refinement is lessened and that is a loving act on Gods part. For the sheep and goats thing someone else has already given the correct answer to that. If you think that Christian Universal Redemption has no basis other than wanting to fit God into a box that is flesh pleasing then you show your lack of knowledge on the subject and you are doing as too many do , they talk about things which they think they understand but have never read one book on why people know it true and the scriptures that show this is exactly how God has and will work.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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As I stated in my previous post "aionios" is defined as eternal in about 24 vss. I quoted only the vss. quoted by Jesus. "Aionios is used a few times to refer to things which are not/cannot be eternal but it is never so defined. "Aionios" cannot mean both "eternal" and "not eternal."
Aionios is not defined as eternal just because you state it is. You speak as though Jesus used and defined Aionios as eternal. You arrive at this conclusion because you impose your faulty translation, driven by your insatiable defense of the demonic doctrine of ECT. The very literal meaning of Aionios is age-abiding or age-during. That is not my opinion … that is a fact.

Now, why on earth does it need to be retranslated? Because if you don’t, your house of cards crumbles. You simply refuse to acknowledge this literal translation, even though, as has already been noted by Jeff Saunders, keeping the literal meaning intact does not alter the meaning of the txt. Jeff asked you to point out a verse which is altered in meaning by using the literal rendering of Aionios. As per your usual practice, you ignore the questions of others with whom you disagree and then come back over the top with another question. It is very tiring my friend.

Also, you state Aionios cannot be translated as eternal and non-eternal, yet you say Aionios is translated “a few times to refer to things which are not/can not be eternal but is never so defined.” What does that even mean? Paint yourself in to a corner much?

It cannot mean both eternal and age, age abiding. Aionios is an adjective it cannot be translated as a noun "age." Is the adjective "aionios" so difficult to translate that it takes two words. Or is that driven by personal bias?
Is the literal meaning of Aionios (age-abiding) so difficult to understand, for such a highly educated man as yourself, that you must reduce it to something other than what it means? No personal bias here on my part. I accept the literal meaning. You are the one who must reinterpret the meaning. Who has the personal bias her my friend?
You are very seriously mistaken you are the one imposing one’s personal bias. Can you disprove any of the vss. I quoted in the first part of my study of aionios above. You will want to read the rest of my aionios study below.
There it is … you ignore Jeff Saunders challenge to demonstrate how keeping the literal translation of Aionios alters, in any way, the meaning of the txt, and then come over the top with your usual rhetoric. So, in the verses you quoted below, pick just a few and insert/replace your rendering of Aionios with the literal meaning and tell Jeff Saunders why/how it changes the meaning of the verse.

I might be wrong but you strike me as someone who strongly holds to a literal interpretation of the Scripture. Yes? But you choose to ignore the literal rendering of Aionios in favor of a reinterpretation of the literal meaning. Hmmmmmmmmmmm …

By the way … I have asked you on more than one occasion if you have considered that YOU may be one of those of who Jesus said “I never knew you. Depart from me you who work iniquity.” I have never received an answer. You should. According to you and your gospel, your own works of obedience may very well be those that condemn you. Have you or have you not considered if you are self deceived and headed for hell? Doesn’t your gospel just make you sleep soundly at night, knowing that you won’t know for sure if you get in until judgement day.
Jude is the only vs. which speaks of "eternal vengeance."
Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is correctly translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul, Peter and John define/describe “aionios” as eternal.
Please pay particular attention to Rom 1:20, "aionios" and Rom 16:26, "aiodios" where Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.
[11]Romans 5:21​
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite age life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21​
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)," a finite period, cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20​
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​
[14]Romans 16:26​
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18​
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;​
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1​
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” God is not going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an indeterminate age. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16​
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite age, God cannot be “immortal” and exist only for a finite age at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8​
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7​
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios life” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite age,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.​
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” and “aionios” with “immortal.” “Aion”/”aionios” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite age and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion”/”aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21​
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite ‘age’ life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21​
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
n this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios/ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite age” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23​
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …​
1 Peter 1:25​
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10​
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” , by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11​
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite age” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition means “forever and forever.”
A final point about “aionios,” which is an adjective. “aionios” cannot be translated as “age” because age is a noun.
 
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Der Alte

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Aionios is not defined as eternal just because you state it is. You speak as though Jesus used and defined Aionios as eternal. You arrive at this conclusion because you impose your faulty translation, driven by your insatiable defense of the demonic doctrine of ECT. The very literal meaning of Aionios is age-abiding or age-during. That is not my opinion … that is a fact.

Now, why on earth does it need to be retranslated? Because if you don’t, your house of cards crumbles. You simply refuse to acknowledge this literal translation, even though, as has already been noted by Jeff Saunders, keeping the literal meaning intact does not alter the meaning of the txt. Jeff asked you to point out a verse which is altered in meaning by using the literal rendering of Aionios. As per your usual practice, you ignore the questions of others with whom you disagree and then come back over the top with another question. It is very tiring my friend.

Also, you state Aionios cannot be translated as eternal and non-eternal, yet you say Aionios is translated “a few times to refer to things which are not/can not be eternal but is never so defined.” What does that even mean? Paint yourself in to a corner much?


Is the literal meaning of Aionios (age-abiding) so difficult to understand, for such a highly educated man as yourself, that you must reduce it to something other than what it means? No personal bias here on my part. I accept the literal meaning. You are the one who must reinterpret the meaning. Who has the personal bias her my friend?

There it is … you ignore Jeff Saunders challenge to demonstrate how keeping the literal translation of Aionios alters, in any way, the meaning of the txt, and then come over the top with your usual rhetoric. So, in the verses you quoted below, pick just a few and insert/replace your rendering of Aionios with the literal meaning and tell Jeff Saunders why/how it changes the meaning of the verse.

I might be wrong but you strike me as someone who strongly holds to a literal interpretation of the Scripture. Yes? But you choose to ignore the literal rendering of Aionios in favor of a reinterpretation of the literal meaning. Hmmmmmmmmmmm …

By the way … I have asked you on more than one occasion if you have considered that YOU may be one of those of who Jesus said “I never knew you. Depart from me you who work iniquity.” I have never received an answer. You should. According to you and your gospel, your own works of obedience may very well be those that condemn you. Have you or have you not considered if you are self deceived and headed for hell? Doesn’t your gospel just make you sleep soundly at night, knowing that you won’t know for sure if you get in until judgement day.
I do not see any reasonable, logical discussion of why I am wrong only only insults and "You're wrong and I'm right. am too!" Here are the 2 vss. from the 24 I listed before. Please show me why this is wrong?
John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αἰώνιον/aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αἰώνιον/aionios] life.
In both vss. aionios is defined as eternal/everlasting by juxtaposition with "shall not perish." If a person does not perish that sounds eternal to me. And FYI "aionios" is an adjective. An adjective cannnot be translated as a noun. The translation "age during" is nonsense. It should be possible to translate the Greek adjective aionios with a single English adjective.

Greek has always been the language of the Greek church, they should know how to translate aionios
Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible’
John 3:15-16 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. '*Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
 
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Diamond72

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Our spirit is what gets saves not our bodies.
There are people like John Wesley who believe our physical body is resurrected. Even there is a resurrection of those who are not saved because they sinned in the body they have to be judged in the body. The reasoning is body and soul together sinned so together they have to be judged by God. Then the unsaved are destroyed in the lake of fire.

There are various universal beliefs that everyone will be saved one way or another. We see a lot of variations on what you are saying in the people with NDE stories. The times I have been dead there was nothing. It is not like sleep at all. I have had dreams and visions though that are somewhat simular to the people with their NDE stories.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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I do not see any reasonable, logical discussion of why I am wrong only only insults and "You're wrong and I'm right. am too!" Here are the 2 vss. from the 24 I listed before. Please show me why this is wrong?
You have more than made my point again brother:
1). reply as if you are the reasonable one in the discussion
2). claim to be the victim of insults
3). make the discussion all about you and your position
4). come over the top with a challenge to show you where you are wrong all the while never answering the questions of the one with whom you are engaged in discussion.
5). Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αἰώνιον/aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αἰώνιον/aionios] life.
In both vss. aionios is defined as eternal/everlasting by juxtaposition with "shall not perish." If a person does not perish that sounds eternal to me.
This makes no sense but I know what you mean. Also, you should take note perish (also translated as lost), is most certainly not suffering or torment.
And FYI "aionios" is an adjective. An adjective cannnot be translated as a noun.
You keep telling me this as though I have been using Aionios incorrectly. I know an adjective describes a noun. Can you point out for me where in our discussion I have improperly used Aionios so I can correct my error?
The translation "age during" is nonsense. It should be possible to translate the Greek adjective aionios with a single English adjective.
You stated this earlier. Age-during/abiding makes good sense, if you know and acknowledge that an age is an undefined period of time. Only, your personal bias demands that it be defined as such, thus imparting in to the word a meaning that is not there. Funny how offended you get at being insulted. But have no issue mocking the chosen translation of the highly respected translator/author Robert Young. He among many others choose to remain faithful to the Greek txt rather than impose their own persuasion, whatever that may be, in to the txt.
Greek has always been the language of the Greek church, they should know how to translate aionios
Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible’
John 3:15-16 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. '*Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Again, “perish” does not = suffer! I’m fine with perish/lost my problem is with the defined time (eternal) imposed in to a a word which is undefined by time.

Until you start answering the questions posed to you, I will refrain from participating in any further discussions with you.
 
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Der Alte

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You have more than made my point again brother:
1). reply as if you are the reasonable one in the discussion
2). claim to be the victim of insults
3). make the discussion all about you and your position
4). come over the top with a challenge to show you where you are wrong all the while never answering the questions of the one with whom you are engaged in discussion.
5). Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Once again resorting to personal attack vs. addressing the topic.
This makes no sense but I know what you mean. Also, you should take note perish (also translated as lost), is most certainly not suffering or torment.
I have never said nor implied the perish means suffering or torment
You keep telling me this as though I have been using Aionios incorrectly. I know an adjective describes a noun. Can you point out for me where in our discussion I have improperly used Aionios so I can correct my error?
Misrepresenting what I said. I never said or implied that you are "using Aionios incorrectly." I said that aionios an adjective cannot be translated as a noun. Age is a noun.
You stated this earlier. Age-during/abiding makes good sense, if you know and acknowledge that an age is an undefined period of time. Only, your personal bias demands that it be defined as such, thus imparting in to the word a meaning that is not there. Funny how offended you get at being insulted. But have no issue mocking the chosen translation of the highly respected translator/author Robert Young. He among many others choose to remain faithful to the Greek txt rather than impose their own persuasion, whatever that may be, in to the txt.
More insults instead of addressing the topic. Did you happen to read the quote from the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation of John 3:15-16, I posted? Greek has been their language since the beginning of the church. I am certain they know how to translate aionios more so than Robert Young.
Again, “perish” does not = suffer! I’m fine with perish/lost my problem is with the defined time (eternal) imposed in to a a word which is undefined by time.
I never said nor implied that perish means suffer. FYI I am convinced that perish means to cease to exist.
Until you start answering the questions posed to you, I will refrain from participating in any further discussions with you.
Name some relevant questions I have not answered.
The definition of apollumi translated perish from Thayer.
G622
ἀπόλλυμι apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Quote from a previous post
"Also, you state Aionios cannot be translated as eternal and non-eternal, yet you say Aionios is translated “a few times to refer to things which are not/can not be eternal but is never so defined.” What does that even mean? Paint yourself in to a corner much?"​
The few times aionios refers to things which are not or cannot be eternal it is used figuratively. In 24 vss. aionios is defined in the vs. See e.g. John 3;15-16
John 3:15-16​
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In both verses aionios is defined as eternal by juxtaposition with "should not perish." It cannot mean "age during" Age is a finite period of time. Also the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church translated aionios as eternal.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Once again resorting to personal attack vs. addressing the topic.

I have never said nor implied the perish means suffering or torment

Misrepresenting what I said. I never said or implied that you are "using Aionios incorrectly." I said that aionios an adjective cannot be translated as a noun. Age is a noun.

More insults instead of addressing the topic. Did you happen to read the quote from the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation of John 3:15-16, I posted? Greek has been their language since the beginning of the church. I am certain they know how to translate aionios more so than Robert Young.

I never said nor implied that perish means suffer. FYI I am convinced that perish means to cease to exist.

Name some relevant questions I have not answered.
The definition of apollumi translated perish from Thayer.
G622
ἀπόλλυμι apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Quote from a previous post
"Also, you state Aionios cannot be translated as eternal and non-eternal, yet you say Aionios is translated “a few times to refer to things which are not/can not be eternal but is never so defined.” What does that even mean? Paint yourself in to a corner much?"​
The few times aionios refers to things which are not or cannot be eternal it is used figuratively. In 24 vss. aionios is defined in the vs. See e.g. John 3;15-16
John 3:15-16​
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In both verses aionios is defined as eternal by juxtaposition with "should not perish." It cannot mean "age during" Age is a finite period of time. Also the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church translated aionios as eternal.
I will name a question you I have seen you answer - can you show me one verse that when Aionios is translated as - of the age or pertaining to the age - it makes the verse false. For example I will use the verse you used “ should not perish but have the life pertaining to the age” how is this false?
 
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