Why we are not supposed to keep the Sabbath

[trophy33]

Brother, if that statement were true, God through Paul would not have told us to keep God's rest on the seventh day of creation

If the world was not really created in 6/7 days, would your theological position lose its dogmatism?

 

[trophy33]

As it is, I already do not read and understand the opening creation accounts in the mainstream traditional natural-minded way, so the answer is that my understanding of the scripture and this topic would not change.

Thanks. If the creation was not literal and therefore the 7 days of creation would not apply to non-Jewish cultural contexts, what of these two would be the main argument for a non-Jew to keep the Sabbath, in your opinion?

a) That the Mosaic Law did not end and applies to all
b) That the Sabbath was commanded to keep even to people outside of the Mosaic Law

 

[daq]

Thanks. If the creation was not literal and therefore the 7 days of creation would not apply to non-Jewish cultural contexts, what of these two would be the main argument for a non-Jew to keep the Sabbath, in your opinion?

a) That the Mosaic Law did not end and applies to all
b) That the Sabbath was commanded to keep even to people outside of the Mosaic Law

Not natural minded does not equate to not literal; or do you also suppose that spirit is not literal just because it is not physical?

 

[guevaraj]

If the world was not really created in 6/7 days, would your theological position lose its dogmatism?

Brother, God came onto an already existing world and made changes to make it our home during creation week. Creation week begins with light, but God came onto this already existing world in darkness before adding the light that began the first day of creation.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and (Genesis 1:1-3a NIV)​

Between the creation of everything above and the week of creation below there is an unspecified period of time. The first day goes from light to light again in the morning.

there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3b-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[trophy33]

Brother, God came onto an already existing world and made changes to make it our home during creation week. Creation week begins with light, but God came onto this already existing world in darkness before adding the light that began the first day of creation.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and (Genesis 1:1-3a NIV)​

Between the creation of everything above and the week of creation below there is an unspecified period of time. The first day goes from light to light again in the morning.

there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3b-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

This is not an answer to my question. My question is - if there is no literal creation week, (if Genesis 1 is not literal), would your position and reasoning for the Sabbath keeping change?

 

[trophy33]

Not natural minded does not equate to not literal; or do you also suppose that spirit is not literal just because it is not physical?

Sorry, you lost me. What is your reasoning for the keeping of the Sabbath based on?

a) the creation week
b) the Mosaic Law
c) something else

 

[Leaf473]

It looks to me like it would make a big difference whether the days in Genesis 1 are 24-hour time periods or more like eras.

In Genesis 2:3 is God blessing the 7th 24-hour period or era?

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 19:23 - New American Standard Bible

On that day there will be a road from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria; and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[trophy33]

It looks to me like it would make a big difference whether the days in Genesis 1 are 24-hour time periods or more like eras.

In Genesis 2:3 is God blessing the 7th 24-hour period or era?

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 19:23 - New American Standard Bible

On that day there will be a road from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria; and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.

www.biblegateway.com

I think the more important thing is where do the numbers 6 and 7 come from. If they had a cultural meaning to the ancient Jews (like the inauguration of temples in 7 cycles), then the structure of Genesis 1 is a cultural thing, not a literal description of creation.

And if its a cultural, symbolic division, it hardly constitutes some global commandment for all people everywhere to keep the 7th day.

So far it seems to me that all proponents of the Sabbath keeping must somehow work with literal 7 cycles (or 6 to be precise) for their teaching to have a leg to stand on.

 

[Icyspark]

Premises:
1. The Sabbath was a part of the Mosaic Law and of the Mosaic Law only.

Hi trophy33,

Your premises are flawed, which is leading you to false conclusions.

This first premise is building on your third premise, which assumes that the creation account is a lie. Jesus taught a literal creation and said, "from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female'” (Mark 10:6).

According to the Bible, the Sabbath finds its origin in Genesis 2:1-3, not in Exodus. So your unsubstantiated assertion above is shown to be false.

Exodus 16 also invalidates this assumption.

2. The Law was only for Jews, since Moses till Christ.

Another unsubstantiated assertion.

Are you a sinner? If so, on what basis are you a sinner?

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for human beings. Are you a human being?

3. Even the book of Genesis was a theological part of the Mosaic Law and is not literal (namely in its creation account).

If these premises are all true, we are not supposed to keep the Sabbath.

Another unsubstantiated assertion.

Do you believe in Jesus? If so, do you accept Him as being authoritative?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi trophy33,

Your premises are flawed, which is leading you to false conclusions.

This first premise is building on your third premise, which assumes that the creation account is a lie. Jesus taught a literal creation and said, "from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female'” (Mark 10:6).

According to the Bible, the Sabbath finds its origin in Genesis 2:1-3, not in Exodus. So your unsubstantiated assertion above is shown to be false.

Exodus 16 also invalidates this unsubstantiated assumption.





Another unsubstantiated assertion.

Are you a sinner? If so, on what basis are you a sinner?

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for human beings. Are you a human being?





Another unsubstantiated assertion.

Do you believe in Jesus? If so, do you accept Him as being authoritative?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

People get rid of the Ten Commandments because they don't want to deal with the 4th commandment. Now people want to get rid of Creation for the same reason, they don't want to deal with the Sabbath. Someone really has gone to great lengths for us not to keep the Sabbath and it wasn't God Exo 20:8-11Heb 4:9-10NIV Mat 24:20 Mat 2:27 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 66:23. The Sabbath is a very powerful commandment- after all it reveals the God of Creation Exo 20:11 who is the only God who can sanctify us Eze 20:12 the devil so desperately wants to be like God Isa 14:14 and has tried to counterfeit everything God has made sacred. Sad people can't see this.

 

[Icyspark]

People get rid of the Ten Commandments because they don't want to deal with the 4th commandment. Now people want to get rid of Creation for the same reason, they don't want to deal with the Sabbath. Someone really has gone to great lengths for us not to keep the Sabbath and it wasn't God Exo 20:8-11Heb 4:9-10NIV Mat 24:20 Mat 2:27 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 66:23. The Sabbath is a very powerful commandment- after all it reveals the God of Creation Exo 20:11 who is the only God who can sanctify us Eze 20:12 the devil so desperately wants to be like God Isa 14:14 and has tried to counterfeit everything God has made sacred. Sad people can't see this.

Hi SabbathBlessings,

Here's another text I thought of which seems relevant here:

2 Peter 3:5​

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.​

How convenient is that? The creation event doesn't align with their belief system so "they deliberately forget" about it.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Jerry N.]

In Gen. 2:2, God made the Sabbath holy. The Ten Commandments say you should keep the Sabbath holy. Romans 14:5, “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.” In many cultures, Sunday is the seventh day of the week, and in many cultures, Saturday is the seventh day of the week. Over the last few thousand years, there has been discussion on whether the seven-day cycle has ever shifted by a day or two. Jews and some other faiths say it hasn’t changed, but others disagree. If a person believes they should keep the Sabbath, whether it be Saturday or Sunday, then they should keep it.

 

[trophy33]

Hi trophy33,

Your premises are flawed, which is leading you to false conclusions.

This first premise is building on your third premise, which assumes that the creation account is a lie.

My third premise is not "the creation account is a lie". My third premise is "the creation account is not literal". Please, refrain from creating straw men.

I think the third premise is supported from many sides (natural sciences, cultural/historical sciences, textual criticism, internal literary devices used in the text itself...).


Is your belief in the Sabbath keeping dependent on the universe to be literally created in 6 literal days and God literally resting on the 7th day?

 

[trophy33]

The Ten Commandments say you should keep the Sabbath holy.

No, the Ten Commandments do not address any of us. It addressed the people of Israel who stood before Moses. And their children, explicitly. See the premise number 2.

 

[trophy33]

People get rid of the Ten Commandments because they don't want to deal with the 4th commandment. Now people want to get rid of Creation for the same reason, they don't want to deal with the Sabbath. Someone really has gone to great lengths for us not to keep the Sabbath and it wasn't God Exo 20:8-11Heb 4:9-10NIV Mat 24:20 Mat 2:27 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 66:23. The Sabbath is a very powerful commandment- after all it reveals the God of Creation Exo 20:11 who is the only God who can sanctify us Eze 20:12 the devil so desperately wants to be like God Isa 14:14 and has tried to counterfeit everything God has made sacred. Sad people can't see this.

Instead of flooding the thread with verse coordinates, try to focus specifically on one of the premises and present a short reasoning why it is or is not valid. So that we can have an on-topic conversation.

If you want to ignore that (and my questions), please do not continue participating.

 

[Leaf473]

I think the more important thing is where do the numbers 6 and 7 come from. If they had a cultural meaning to the ancient Jews (like the inauguration of temples in 7 cycles), then the structure of Genesis 1 is a cultural thing, not a literal description of creation.

And if its a cultural, symbolic division, it hardly constitutes some global commandment for all people everywhere to keep the 7th day.

So far it seems to me that all proponents of the Sabbath keeping must somehow work with literal 7 cycles (or 6 to be precise) for their teaching to have a leg to stand on.

Yes, the number seven could have a cultural meaning in the first creation account. That would be similar to how the number 12 has a cultural meaning here, since there are more than 12 tribes of Israel, depending on how you count

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 7:4 - New American Standard Bible

The 144,000 - And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

www.biblegateway.com

 

[trophy33]

Yes, the number seven could have a cultural meaning in the first creation account. That would be similar to how the number 12 has a cultural meaning here, since there are more than 12 tribes of Israel, depending on how you count

My first go-to hypothesis would be that the creation account was written in the style of the seven-day temple inauguration.

As taught for example by J. Walton.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi trophy33,

Your premises are flawed, which is leading you to false conclusions.

This first premise is building on your third premise, which assumes that the creation account is a lie. Jesus taught a literal creation and said, "from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female'” (Mark 10:6).

According to the Bible, the Sabbath finds its origin in Genesis 2:1-3, not in Exodus.

The Sabbath is first mentioned in Genesis, and the Sabbath commandment is first mentioned in Exodus

Here we see God ending the Sabbath, but I don't think he is ending the Sabbath commandment

Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 2:11 - New American Standard Bible

I will also put an end to all her joy, Her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, And all her festivals.

www.biblegateway.com

So your unsubstantiated assertion above is shown to be false.

Exodus 16 also invalidates this assumption.





Another unsubstantiated assertion.

Are you a sinner? If so, on what basis are you a sinner?

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for human beings. Are you a human being?





Another unsubstantiated assertion.

Do you believe in Jesus? If so, do you accept Him as being authoritative?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Jerry N.]

It doesn’t matter in this discussion whether the seventh day is a 24-hour day, a thousand years, or an eon, one keeps the Sabbath to sanctify it as a day for the Lord. One chooses to keep the ten commandments to be obedient to God’s will. Many people believe that, if it was good enough for the Hebrews, it is good enough for me in this more general set of laws. One would not reject “Thou should not kill,” because it was for the Hebrews. In fact, the translation would be better as, “Thou should not murder.”

 

[daq]

Sorry, you lost me. What is your reasoning for the keeping of the Sabbath based on?

a) the creation week
b) the Mosaic Law
c) something else

No, you lost yourself for ignoring what I posted in my first response here.
That's okay with me, nice chatting.