Salvation from the Catholic View Compared to the Eastern Orthodox View

[ladodgers6]

Ok, so between family illness and demanding work I've been out of commission-sorry it's apparent you're still in need of edification. I missed this one earlier:

What I said was more than enough.

No worries, I understand family comes first. LoL, I do not need any edification, because I believe that sinners are not saved by any works they do. Sinners are saved solely on God's Grace Alone. You on the other hand try to blur the lines or bait switch, saying that man cannot be saved without God's Grace, but then try to switch it with works. The old slide of hand trick.

Paul says in Galatians that sinners are saved by works or by Grace, but it cannot be both.

 

[ladodgers6]

For over two thousand years church has taught that the working of the Holy Spirit in us from beginning to end is essential to our salvation. First He knocks, then He enters as we open the door. His indwelling is our salvation. And yet we can also walk away from that vital life-giving relationship.

See, fhansen, you need to revisit these topics. You keep looking inward for assurance, instead of outward to Christ. Why is it, that you always try to locate your salvation in your efforts or response, rather than in the Gospel itself; namely who Jesus is and what he has done. Instead you look on how to save yourself through exhortations?

Instead of understanding, believing and trusting in the facts of the Gospel, you feel that is not enough. That Christ did not finish it at the Cross. So, now, you believe and trust in your own works that is the basis of your being saved before God, instead of Christ's works? Do you not see a huge problem with this thinking of yours? This is called legalism; understand it.

You fail to see that the Gospel gives what the Law could not do. The Law says do, the Gospel says done. Understand? Now, please stop blurring the lines here. Sanctification of the sinner flows from their Justification in Christ through Faith Alone!​

 

[ladodgers6]

Legalism is to think that mere works of the law, the external observance of the law, can make us just, righteous. But nothing could be further from the truth. Only God, relationship with Him, can make us righteous. Only He can justify the ungodly. With Him we can do all things.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Legalism is when people do not believe or trust that Christ is enough. So, they want to supplement it with their works. And by doing so, it is no longer Grace, but works. This is exactly what Paul warned the Galatians about.

 

[ladodgers6]

This is nonsense, anti-gospel. The truth is that, at justification, we would be heaven-bound if we were to die- due to the cleansing and free gift of real righteous now given us, that we're now adorned with. If we were allowed to live longer and were to seriously compromise that state of cleanliness, that state of grace, that state of justice, we would be accountable for that. Again, the new covenant is not about a reprieve from the penalty for all future sins, but about the freedom from sin and the ability to overcome sin now, with Him. That's what keeps us free from the penalty of sin. To the extent that we return to the flesh we are no longer with Him, walking in the Spirit.

Thank you, you made my point. You do not believe in a Free Gospel. You believe in a Lawspel. A mixture of a little bit of Gospel and Law, because the Gospel Promise is false, where God says that he will do for his people, because they are lost condemned sinners under the Law. Since His Son couldn't accomplish it 100% and came up short, we must pick up the slack and finish it, right?

I am pretty sure you have no clue what Justification entails. You are stuck on works and have to insert human activity somewhere, which is why you refuse to believe that sinner need effectual grace, but rather only need a nudge in the right direction, right? The question still remains, if Grace is not effectual according to what you believe, then what saves the sinner?????????​

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes, and He is where our goodness comes from. He certainty didn't create us to be bad. So Jesus also said to the rich young ruler,
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Fhansen, do you not take the time to studying scripture???? This is Law preaching to sinners to expose their sinful predicament before a Holy God. This young ruler was bragging and boasting about his godly deeds, just like the Pharisee and the tax collector. Jesus knew he hasn't kept any of them. Because he says to him. Okay, then sell everything you have and give the proceeds to the poor and follow me. Here you have the two greatest commandments that sums up the 10. What did this young ruler do? Jesus did this to show him that he didn't keep the Law, understand?????​

With God, one may keep the commandments, the commandments which only testify to true righteousness, without even hearing them, let alone being under the law.

You keep claiming not to be a legalist, but here you go, in your own words.

 

[fhansen]

No worries, I understand family comes first. LoL, I do not need any edification, because I believe that sinners are not saved by any works they do. Sinners are saved solely on God's Grace Alone. You on the other hand try to blur the lines or bait switch, saying that man cannot be saved without God's Grace, but then try to switch it with works. The old slide of hand trick.

'The old slight of hand trick'-hadn't heard that one for a while. Again, my beliefs are supported by the foundational teachings which date to the beginnings of Christianity and were even laid down as dogma at council centuries ago. Faith is to give our assent to God, to say yes to Him when He calls us by His grace. And that assent is not a work of the law-just the opposite, in fact, as it means that our reliance for righteousness is now upon Him, not upon ourselves. And neither is our cooperating with His work in us a work of the law. We are not justified-made right-by merely pretending to be righteous, giving an external show of righteousness or holiness by obedience of the commandments, for example, while still in our fallen state. We are justified-made right- freely, by God who, alone, can give us the righteousness that He created us to have. This happens as we turn to Him and away from our fallen, isolated state of alienation from Him. IOW, the basis of the new covenant is reconciliation and union with God, that's the difference between it and the OC. And that vital union is what makes authentic righteousness possible for man. It's ok to be righteous, it's good, in fact, and necessary, with a righteousness that is not based on the law. Sin is not normal!!!!

But we will continue to struggle against sin, due to the same temptations that drew Adam & Eve away from God and His wise and loving authority to begin with. The call of the world to "freedom", to autonomy from any authority but our own, from any authority that might just hamper our complete enjoyment, our fulfillment, our happiness, never ceases And that call continues to beckon us, to draw us and challenge us and test us. And in that test we determine where our loyalties truly lie, whether our faith, hope, and love are genuine. And love, especially, is the hallmark of our justice/righteousness, the mark of a true child of God. And it obeys by its nature as it changes on the inside first.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Matt 23:25-26

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

Again, the gospel is not about God suddenly saying, "Never mind, I no longer care if you sin or not as long as you believe.": Rather, it's about the authentic way to righteousness and overcoming sin by turning back to Him first. That's the purpose of faith. And none of it happens without you, without your participation as if you become some kind of automaton now. We pick up our cross and follow daily, or not. It's the way of love, God's way. My oft-repeated quote of Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

 

[fhansen]

See, fhansen, you need to revisit these topics. You keep looking inward for assurance, instead of outward to Christ. Why is it, that you always try to locate your salvation in your efforts or response, rather than in the Gospel itself; namely who Jesus is and what he has done. Instead you look on how to save yourself through exhortations?

Instead of understanding, believing and trusting in the facts of the Gospel, you feel that is not enough. That Christ did not finish it at the Cross. So, now, you believe and trust in your own works that is the basis of your being saved before God, instead of Christ's works? Do you not see a huge problem with this thinking of yours? This is called legalism; understand it.

You fail to see that the Gospel gives what the Law could not do. The Law says do, the Gospel says done. Understand? Now, please stop blurring the lines here. Sanctification of the sinner flows from their Justification in Christ through Faith Alone!

You fail to understand just what He's done-and how His expectation of you, to assent to His grace, His calling, to Him, is the very best thing He could do for you. Even faith, as a gift of grace, is a also a human choice, and a daily one. To the extent that we remain in Him we will obey Him. Anything else is just talk.

 

[fhansen]

Fhansen, do you not take the time to studying scripture???? This is Law preaching to sinners to expose their sinful predicament before a Holy God.

Do you not understand the gospel? Again, it's not a reprieve from the obligation for man to be righteous; it's finally the authentic means to achieving that very thing!!!! Jesus isn't trying to confuse you when He tells us to obey the commandments, or that He didn't come to abolish the law or that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law and that we must be clean on the inside first of all in order for the outside to be authentically clean. To depend on the law for this is to depend on ourselves, To depend on God for true righteousness is the purpose of the gospel. This comes by virtue of union with Him, which come by faith in Him. And this reverses Adams belief, that he was perfectly right on his own apart from God and His authority. Adam lost grace; Jesus restores it, and brings even more, more yet of His life in us. He's the Tree of Life for us to eat of.

And Paul meant it when he said:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
And Hebrews:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

You don't to want to hear it, but there is a righteousness that the law testifies to but that is apart from the law, a righteousness that fulfills the law without being the law and without regard to the law, the "righteousness of God" that comes by faith and is not based on the law (Phil 3:9) and is probably best described by the term "love".

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:13-18

The life of grace is a gift, which we must daily choose to walk in.

 

[ladodgers6]

'The old slight of hand trick'-hadn't heard that one for a while. Again, my beliefs are supported by the foundational teachings which date to the beginnings of Christianity and were even laid down as dogma at council centuries ago. Faith is to give our assent to God, to say yes to Him when He calls us by His grace.

Is Faith a gift from God or not? Can you define your answer to this question in detail, please, thank you. How does God call sinners? Can you define this for me, in detail? BTW, where is the preaching of the Law to sinners, here? The Law must be preached prior to the Gospel. The Law strips the sinner of any hope or life. The Law exposes the sinful concupiscence; the fallen nature of mankind; of the individual sinner before a Holy God. You miss two very crucial biblical truths here. In the other post you only point to the inward activity of man; instead of pointing the sinner outward to Christ and his finished works. Instead you goat and boast about man's godly acts. And here in this post the void of the Law that condemns sinners because of their concupiscence under the Law.

This is why fhansen you have a convoluted piece-meal theology. A mosh posh Frankenstein monster of the Law/Gospel (Gos-law-pel). That is no Gospel at all. No good news for the ungodly.​

And that assent is not a work of the law-just the opposite, in fact, as it means that our reliance for righteousness is now upon Him, not upon ourselves.

What does this mean? Are you saying that our righteousness is because of Christ's righteousness? If so, I agree, if not, then you do not understand the righteousness given in the Gospel promise. And rely on, to establish your own righteousness, instead of submitting to the righteousness of God given freely in Christ through Faith Alone!​

And neither is our cooperating with His work in us a work of the law.

How on earth are you cooperating with His Work? Do you not see that you are trying to find glory and boasting in your deeds???? Either Christ finished it all for God's people or not. There's no in between here.

We are not justified-made right-by merely pretending to be righteous, giving an external show of righteousness or holiness by obedience of the commandments, for example, while still in our fallen state.

It's in our fallen state, sir, that God Justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5). Does Paul say that God justifies those who work, or those who do not work in Romans 4? It's those who trust in Him who justified the ungodly. So how can God justify the ungodly? By clothing them in the righteous robe of Christ who is the one who came in the flesh to fulfill the Law with His perfect works and holiness; by His One Act Obedience we are given the free gift of righteousness through Faith Alone apart from works. This, Sir, is Good News for sinners!

There can be no agreement as to what salvation is unless there is agreement as to that from which salvation rescues us. The problem and the solution hang together; the one explicates the other. It is impossible to gain a deep grasp of what the cross achieves without plunging into a deep grasp of what sin is; conversely, to augment one's understanding of the cross is to augment one's understanding of sin.​

1 Cor. 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

In other words it's all of Grace, not our works but His that saves sinners! To say otherwise is to pervert the Gospel!

 

[fhansen]

Is Faith a gift from God or not? Can you define your answer to this question in detail, please, thank you. How does God call sinners? Can you define this for me, in detail? BTW, where is the preaching of the Law to sinners, here? The Law must be preached prior to the Gospel. The Law strips the sinner of any hope or life. The Law exposes the sinful concupiscence; the fallen nature of mankind; of the individual sinner before a Holy God. You miss two very crucial biblical truths here. In the other post you only point to the inward activity of man; instead of pointing the sinner outward to Christ and his finished works. Instead you goat and boast about man's godly acts. And here in this post the void of the Law that condemns sinners because of their concupiscence under the Law.

This is why fhansen you have a convoluted piece-meal theology. A mosh posh Frankenstein monster of the Law/Gospel (Gos-law-pel). That is no Gospel at all. No good news for the ungodly.​

The reason you’re confused is because it’s not a matter of either/or, but both/and, with God initiating and man responding, or not responding. So, both God’s calling and the faith to respond are gifts of grace, as I’ve maintained. But GRACE IS RESISTBLE; gifts can be rejected. He gives everything we need to believe, with even creation, itself, testifying to His existence, so that no one has excuse for unbelief. Everything Jesus said and did reveals the true God and is a call to faith while the Holy Spirit works within to move and draw us to it. The cross emphatically testifies to His unfathomable love, calling men to love in return. Some will respond and some won’t. And even when we do assent, we may turn back away later, which the bible speaks of and warns us about. We may be like the Jewish leaders in John 12:42 who believed but wouldn’t profess it because they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. We may be rocky soil, we may not come when He beckons all who are weary to come, or we may look back after putting our hand to the plow. We may reject the heavenly gift after tasting it, we may reject Christ after coming to know Him and escaping the pollution of the world, returning to the flesh. Will we remain in Him, apart from Whom we can do nothing? These are all biblical instances of grace given and grace resisted, or warnings against resisting.

Faith is a turning away from sin and the world and turning to God. I apologize if you’ve answered this already but I’m not sure if you’ve given a direct answer. Since you believe-I think- that justification consists of a declared righteousness rather than righteousness given, can a believer sin wantonly, persistently and expect to enter heaven? Or is sin simply, automatically overcome in a believer?

Christ’s gospel isn’t convoluted; it’s simple. You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself. That hasn’t changed one bit with the new covenant. To the extent that you achieve this, you have become who you were created to be. That love, not the law, can make you right IOW, and God is the only way to that love. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” Apart from love you are nothing (1Cor 13:2).

That’s the heart of the gospel. Turn to Him in faith and you begin that journey. It’s all about who you fellowship with. Reconciliation with God is not merely some forensic or legalistic matter; it’s to enter union with Him. That connection to the Vine is the basis of man’s righteousness, as opposed to the unjust state of alienation from Him that Adam realized for humanity. That’s how faith justifies, by restored relationship with our Creator as we finally acknowledge His existence and our dependence on Him, not on ourselves.

And, again, God didn’t suddenly decide to create little Christian automatons with the advent of His Son who could only choose and respond rightly after regenerating them. He could’ve done that at the very beginning of creation. Grace is resistible, but you keep obstinately resisting that fact.

Nor did He remove the obligation from man to be personally righteous and live accordingly. We just need Him in order to do it. Adam was wrong.

What does this mean? Are you saying that our righteousness is because of Christ's righteousness? If so, I agree, if not, then you do not understand the righteousness given in the Gospel promise. And rely on, to establish your own righteousness, instead of submitting to the righteousness of God given freely in Christ through Faith Alone!

The righteousness of Christ is the righteousness given to us-that we are to follow Him in!!!

How on earth are you cooperating with His Work? Do you not see that you are trying to find glory and boasting in your deeds???? Either Christ finished it all for God's people or not. There's no in between here.

Why/how can anyone boast in simply doing the right thing, that which they're supposed to do and are now enabled to do by the Spirit as a result of humbly turning to God in faith???

It's in our fallen state, sir, that God Justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5).

Yes-that's what i said-and have been constantly saying...sir. You really need to perform some due diligence in studying the history of the Christian faith. Otherwise you'll continue to myopically hang onto a few isolated concepts gleaned from Scripture centuries after the fact and fail to receive the full understanding of the faith. I know the gospel- and don't wish to keep repeating the same things.

 

[ladodgers6]

The reason you’re confused is because it’s not a matter of either/or, but both/and, with God initiating and man responding, or not responding. So, both God’s calling and the faith to respond are gifts of grace, as I’ve maintained. But GRACE IS RESISTBLE; gifts can be rejected. He gives everything we need to believe, with even creation, itself, testifying to His existence, so that no one has excuse for unbelief.

I keep asking for you to expound upon how then is a sinner, justified before a Holy God? I do not know what your view on God initiating means or what it entails. This is so ambiguous, vague and uncertain, I do not see how this provides any surety to be saved, understand? Fallen humanity already constantly rebel and resist God. All have fallen short of the glory of God. All are enemies and hostile toward God. The dominion of sin within the fallen human heart is far too strong to be defeated by the human will.

In the Reformed Faith we believe that the whole man is fallen; meaning all his faculties and abilities are tainted with sin. Knowing how far we have fallen from God is key to understanding the plight we are in. This is why we need a mediator between man and God, so enters the God-Man who represents both parties in the Covenant of Grace. Resurrecting and redeeming sinners is done only by God for there is no other. To claim that it is God who gives gifts of Grace is correct, but to say they're resistible or ineffective is where the problems lies. Why? Because if these gifts are not effective in saving sinners, then the question becomes, then what saves? In you case it's a decision of a sinner without effectual Grace. Which Sir, makes no sense what so ever.

God's word calls sinners out of the darkness into His marvelous light. Like a command; Let there be light. Just like when Jesus commanded Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb.

So, you have a very hard mountain the climb (Mt. Everest). Either Grace is effectual and brings redemption to God's people, or according to you, people can reject God's Grace after being partially regenerated by the Spirit to know exactly what they are resisting, correct?​

 

[fhansen]

I keep asking for you to expound upon how then is a sinner, justified before a Holy God? I do not know what your view on God initiating means or what it entails.

God justifies you by really justifying you, by forgiving and taking away your sins and washing, cleansing and making you into a new creation. Because the will of man is active only in that he can say “no” to this, at the beginning or at any time thereafter, he is tested and hopefully refined and challenged to grow in his conviction and strength of virtue, in his righteousness. That dynamic interplay between God’s grace and your will is how you become transformed into His image beginning with His seed planted in you at justification. The stronger your yes, the nearer to Him and more like Him you are becoming. It’s the journey of choosing good over evil, with the possibility of our still choosing evil, failing to persevere, at the end of the day. You’re the wildcard, never Him.

You don’t have absolute 100% assurance of your salvation; no one does, that’s a fallacy foisted by some upon people going back about 5 centuries ago now. God, alone, knows with that kind of certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life. You can have a strong yet guarded level of assurance. Strong, based on evidence of good fruit: doing good, overcoming sin, loving well IOW. Guarded, due to the limitations, weaknesses, and sinfulness of human beings. Humility calls for this.

In the Reformed Faith we believe that the whole man is fallen; meaning all his faculties and abilities are tainted with sin.

And this was an error of the Reformers. At the time of the Reformation the church solidly affirmed that man can in no way “believe, hope, love, or be repentant as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him”, without grace, “without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Spirit”.

But it also denounced the idea that man’s will cannot refuse assent, as if he’s totally passive in assenting to God’s call and action when He moves and arouses the will of man. It denounces the concept that man’s will was totally lost and destroyed at the Fall. Man was wounded, crippled, “dumbed down”, weakened, sickened, lost by the fall, by his alienation from God which constitutes the “death of the soul” as it’s been called, and left in his foolish pride. He needs to be awakened by and to that one thing that he desperately needs and desires in order to truly have life even while he doesn’t know quite what it is- until he’s shown and beckoned to walk into that light and away from his pride-driven darkness.

 

[ladodgers6]

God justifies you by really justifying you, by forgiving and taking away your sins and washing, cleansing and making you into a new creation. Because the will of man is active only in that he can say “no” to this, at the beginning or at any time thereafter, he is tested and hopefully refined and challenged to grow in his conviction and strength of virtue, in his righteousness.

First of all, this is only half the story. Forgiveness of sins, is a heavenly blessings in Christ. This occurs because of His obedience upon to death as the atoning sacrifice for sins, once and for all. But here, you miss what this means. How sin permeates and corrupt the whole being of the fallen man. Scripture is clear, that without God freeing sinners from this plight; condition, they will not seek after God, nor will they want to. A fallen sinner follows and obey its concupiscence; meaning they follow and obey what they desire and love. Which is serving the self. Placing the self above anything else, even God himself.

To insist or even imply that fallen man can somehow muster up virtue and righteousness worthy enough to merit anything from God is the serving of the self. It is God who is the One providing everything a sinner needs. Basically removing the boasting not by the Law (Deeds/Works), but because of the Law of Faith. Believing in Him who justifies the ungodly by providing and giving freely the righteousness that the Law demands. This is called the garments of Salvation. The White Robe of Righteousness of Christ, which clothes those who believe. This is how a sinner is declared righteous before God. By a Mediator and His finished works.

The sanctification of the believer who is how free from sin and its dominion (power), can and will live for God because of Christ. They have been freed and reconciled to God, who no longer is a judge, but a loving Father. From the justification in Christ Alone flows the sanctification of the believer who produces good works, not to merit salvation, but because it is the effects of salvation in the believer. You have mingle law with Gospel and have another gospel that is no gospel at all. Because it demands and commands, instead of giving and promising. Huge difference!

Faith and Repentance is not the good news. The good news is who Jesus is and what he has done. Faith receives and rests on who Jesus is and what he has done for the ungodly. And because of what Christ did for the ungodly they repent and follow Christ willingly denying themselves as a result of their salvation in Him.​

 

[fhansen]

First of all, this is only half the story. Forgiveness of sins, is a heavenly blessings in Christ. This occurs because of His obedience upon to death as the atoning sacrifice for sins, once and for all. But here, you miss what this means. How sin permeates and corrupt the whole being of the fallen man. Scripture is clear, that without God freeing sinners from this plight; condition, they will not seek after God, nor will they want to. A fallen sinner follows and obey its concupiscence; meaning they follow and obey what they desire and love. Which is serving the self. Placing the self above anything else, even God himself.

Scripture isn't clear that sinners won't seek God unless He frees them first. Sin/evil is what can help drive us to seek Him, to hunger and thirst for truth and righteousness and justice.. Fallen man isn't some "sin machine". He's lost sick, fallen, weakened, compromised needing to be stirred up, awoken. and God does that, by grace. The church has always insisted that grace precedes everything, but hat God doesn't hit us over the head with it. Some people may experience powerful conversions. But even then, some of them stay the course afterwards, some don't. We're here to learn something of our lack, of our need, by living in a godless world ruled by man.

To insist or even imply that fallen man can somehow muster up virtue and righteousness worthy enough to merit anything from God is the serving of the self.

Not if the virtue and righteousness can come only from Him. We're only to come to value it, the treasure, and embrace it above all else. It's all God's work in any case; we just need to let the Doctor do His job. From the catechism:

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

The sanctification of the believer who is how free from sin and its dominion (power), can and will live for God because of Christ. They have been freed and reconciled to God, who no longer is a judge, but a loving Father. From the justification in Christ Alone flows the sanctification of the believer who produces good works, not to merit salvation, but because it is the effects of salvation in the believer. You have mingle law with Gospel and have another gospel that is no gospel at all. Because it demands and commands, instead of giving and promising. Huge difference!

No, the flesh objects to obligation, we just want to remain as we are, self-satisfied, unchallenged-and so they read Scripture accordingly. But God commands, and His obligations are only good ones. The ultimate obligation for a Christian-for a human- can be summed up by, "Thou shalt love". That's an incomparably good obligation one that would heal all wounds, exclude all sin. You're still being partially by a false gospel. And believers simply do not necessarily stay on board with God; they do not necessarily do good works or overcome the sin that condemns them to death, or remain free from it.

Faith and Repentance is not the good news. The good news is who Jesus is and what he has done. Faith receives and rests on who Jesus is and what he has done for the ungodly. And because of what Christ did for the ungodly they repent and follow Christ willingly denying themselves as a result of their salvation in Him.

That's the ideal. The object of faith is what Jesus has done and who He is, or, more specifically, who He reveals God to be. That's the good news. We're not forced to be impressed, to turn to Him. We're helped, we're coaxed, we're drawn, we're graced, but not overwhelmed. That's not God's way, for our highest good.

 

[ladodgers6]

Scripture isn't clear that sinners won't seek God unless He frees them first.

Well, this is your conjecture. If they need to be set free, the question became free from what? And if it takes Christ himself to free them in the first place, this should speak volumes to you, right? Don't skim over crucial matters. It's vital to understand this, learn and grow from it.

So, I am going to ask you, what does Christ free sinners from? Now, remember that sin permeates the whole body, soul, and mind of the person. I hope you will agree with this, because if you do disagree with this, you have a lot of Scripture to try to refute. I will quote a few passages for you to look up.

Jer. 17: 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

​

No One Is Righteous​

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

1 Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor. 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

John 10:24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe [because] you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”​

 

[fhansen]

Well, this is your conjecture. If they need to be set free, the question became free from what? And if it takes Christ himself to free them in the first place, this should speak volumes to you, right? Don't skim over crucial matters. It's vital to understand this, learn and grow from it.

Nah. It's like anything in life-you've got to want it. And He helps us even there.

So, I am going to ask you, what does Christ free sinners from? Now, remember that sin permeates the whole body, soul, and mind of the person. I hope you will agree with this, because if you do disagree with this, you have a lot of Scripture to try to refute. I will quote a few passages for you to look up.

And I'll ask you. Do you never sin? I agree that all sin, not that sin is all that exists in fallen man, as if no mark of God's image remains. And as believers continue to struggle against sin, that is a battle that will ultimately be won as long as we remain in Him.

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man's life a battle:

The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303

If you've never been engaged in that battle you have been truly blest.

 

[ladodgers6]

Nah. It's like anything in life-you've got to want it. And He helps us even there.

Great point, that's brings us right back to my original question to you, that you kept dancing around. What makes one person want it and other not?

 

[fhansen]

Great point, that's brings us right back to my original question to you, that you kept dancing around. What makes one person want it and other not?

It should be pretty hard to assert that I've been dancing around anything since I've consistently maintained the same point from the beginning. But I'll let Augustine make it again this time:

"It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.”

 

[ladodgers6]

It should be pretty hard to assert that I've been dancing around anything since I've consistently maintained the same point from the beginning. But I'll let Augustine make it again this time:

"It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.”

I am not the one denying this, you are. It's the synergistic theologies that find fault in God. But again, in your paradigm system of belief you cannot answer the question I posed to you. And you do blame God, because you said, and I quote, that God does not violate the will of man. You also said, that without Grace nobody would be saved. If I am wrong in quoting you here, please by all means correct me.

I then proceeded to ask you why is Grace needed and how does it work? You couldn't explain or define how and why Grace is applied and meaning does it illuminate the sinner's faculties to understand; do people need Grace because without it they are in bondage to sin? Which I know you will disagree with. So, why is Grace needed in the first place if the will is free? What I mean by free, that people can live righteous sinless lives. And if this is possible, then why is Grace needed? Because Grace is for the sick, dead, lame, deaf, blind, sinners who cannot do anything to merit favor with God.​

 

[fhansen]

I am not the one denying this, you are. It's the synergistic theologies that find fault in God.

How can this be said? Synergism gives all men the chance while monergism favors only some- unless one believes salvation to be universal.

And you do blame God, because you said, and I quote, that God does not violate the will of man.

How is that blaming God??? If He must violate the will of man then with your position you should have to blame Him for those wills that He doesn't violate.

I then proceeded to ask you why is Grace needed and how does it work? You couldn't explain or define how and why Grace is applied and meaning does it illuminate the sinner's faculties to understand; do people need Grace because without it they are in bondage to sin? Which I know you will disagree with. So, why is Grace needed in the first place if the will is free? What I mean by free, that people can live righteous sinless lives. And if this is possible, then why is Grace needed? Because Grace is for the sick, dead, lame, deaf, blind, sinners who cannot do anything to merit favor with God.

I've explained it constantly-but you're not open to the explanation. I said that grace moves, illumines, helps, draws, coaxes, appeals to, works within, but simply will not go to the point of outright causing a total change-against your assent. If I bring you to a great opera and explain what's happening and the talent of the vocalists and musicians and the producers, I still can't make you appreciate it.

So the working of grace is paralleled in everyday life. I can, and have, walked with downtrodden, addicted people, I can show all the love in the world: forgiveness, acceptance, emotional and spiritual and physical support, never letting them down, always being there for them, trying to get them to appreciate and choose life. Some will respond and some won't. Or I can give one person a loan and that person will do the right thing, paying me back when they can no matter the obstacles while another will have excuses forever not to do so.

So, yes, no one can merit favor with God-that's why we need grace which is more than favor, it's His life in us. And even then we can reject His favor and His life, or return to our old life after accepting His. No one can begin to live righteous sinless lives as they should unless they accept the help they need, unless they accept grace, unless they accept Him. The purpose of the new covenant is to bring you into relationship with Him. That's where the life of grace opens, that's where our righteousness begins, in that vital union.

Again, the chief aspect of the state known as "original sin" is not that man became some sort of total sin machine, but that he was cut off from the Source of true life, including his moral life. That separation between man and God is itself an offence, an anomaly, chaos, an injustice, sin. Man is lost, how can a mortal, created, being possibly find his way to God? He cannot; God must come to him. But does man even want to be found by Him? Or does he want to remain hidden, in darkness, instead, so he can continue in his evil deeds? Does he continue to prefer himself over God, as Adam did?

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.